Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Woody]

Quote:

John317: (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

I believe in the Bible as you quoted.

Don't need nothin more than that.

[jasd]

Umm, John317, why are you screaming? Do your proffers require reinforcement with noise?

Quote:

Quote:jasd

.....I don’t have an issue with the Sabbath of Acts 16:13 being the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Jews; however, are we absolutely certain?

>>In the NT, do you know of a single instance where a ceremonial Sabbath is unquestionably referred to by the words, Ton Sabbatwn(THE Sabbath)?<<

Ton Sabbatwn(THE Sabbath)? I know we differ upon the translation, but I am confident I am correct to read Sabbatwn in the plural. The plural use, in this instance, would be buttressed by the length of time St Paul spent in Philippi – spending the Sabbaths by a riverside. That said,

I fail to take your point.

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Deut 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Jesus Christ quoted from Deuteronomy more than from any other book. What’s that say re Exodus 20:8-11 vis-à-vis Deuteronomy 5:15?

>>The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, which dates before the time of Christ, proves that at Deuteronomy, the original book contained both reasons for keeping the Sabbath.<<

How so?

“Interestingly, now with manuscripts predating the medieval period, we find these texts in substantial agreement with the Masoretic text as well as widely variant forms.” [ed.jasd]

>>Remember that Moses is here reviewing the law. He is making the law relevant to his audience by reminding them that they were once slaves and that they are not to force others to work on the Sabbath like they were forced to work while in Egypt.<< [ed.jasd]

One suspects, by your rationalizing – that the COI could not previously have understood the words, following:

Ex 20:10 ...[in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Further..., should your argument that Deuteronomy represents a recap of Exodus 20:8-11 – it reinforces the argument that the Sabbath was, indeed, given only to those whom Gd brought out of Egypt.

You’re not suggesting that the COI are antitypical of mankind per se, are you?

>>By the way, the first reason given for keeping the Sabbath is the creation; the second reason is that they were freed from Egyptian slavery. Why is that a reason? Because God freed them so that they might keep His law.<<

Should that, indeed, be so – then one assumes that the Law was not extant prior the ‘enslavement’ in Egypt; else, you have Gd enslaving a people that He might free them!?

It could also argue, otherwise, the evolutionary or changing character of the Sabbaths – or even – the complete removal of same.

It could also argue that – whereas, Gd rested on the Seventh day – He then chose, upon the Exodus event, to include the COI in His rest.

It could also argue...

>>That is always the way God works: God saves us in order to keep His law. We do not first keep His law, then become saved.<<

Is that why He placed Satan in Eden – that we might be lost; that Law would be introduced; that we might be saved? umm, that is, a remnant of us will be saved? ...a mini-miniscule portion of those lost?

>>In the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, the reading is 1000 years older than the text that most modern Bibles are translated from. There are very few differences but one important difference is in Deut. 5.

“The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.”

That said, I’m not too keen on the Dead Sea Scrolls per se, as the Xtian world has received them...

“It wasn't until 1991, 44 years after the discovery of the first Scroll, after the pressure for publication mounted, that general access was made available to photographs of the Scrolls.”

“general access”? made available “photographs”? What’s that?

[Robert]

It is true that God made the world and Adam and Eve perfect, but that does not prove your point that since the Fall, the Sabbath no longer points to God as our Creator.

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd .....I don’t have an issue with the Sabbath of Acts 16:13 being the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Jews; however, are we absolutely certain?

>>In the NT, do you know of a single instance where a ceremonial Sabbath is unquestionably referred to by the words, Twn Sabbatwn(THE Sabbath)?<<

Ton Sabbatwn(THE Sabbath)? I know we differ upon the translation, but I am confident I am correct to read Sabbatwn in the plural. The plural use, in this instance, would be buttressed by the length of time St Paul spent in Philippi – spending the Sabbaths by a riverside. That said,

I fail to take your point.

1) "The sabbaths" is an impossible translation, because the word "day" is singular. Thus the only correct translation is, "the Sabbath day". The singular word, day, proves that the word sabbatwn is to be translated "sabbath," singular.

If you want, take this to any professor of Koine Greek and ask. Better yet, look at every single translation of the verse online or in your library. You will not find any translation that gives it, "the sabbath days." You might also check it out in any interlinear, comparing the literal translation.

2) Can you find any translation that gives it the translation you claim? In over 60 translations, not a single one says "the sabbath days," or, as you wrote, "the sabbaths."

Here is Robert Young's Literal:

Acts 16:13-- on the sabbath-day also we went forth outside of the city, by a river, where there used to be prayer, and having sat down, we were speaking to the women who came together,

3) The point is that it is definitely the seventh day Sabbath because the New Testament never calls ceremonial sabbaths "THE Sabbath day."

The reason I sometimes print the letters large or in bold letters is that I am giving those words emphasis and hopefully drawing attention to them. That is also the purpose of making them a different color at times. I don't think of it as "screaming," do you?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If you are free from sin why do you sin? Christ never sinned, not even by a thought! And not only are you sinning, you are in a state of sin because you are never fully measuring up to Christ's life, which was a fulfillment of the law.

SO, you are wrong again.[/quote']

Read Romans 6. For instance, look at Romans 6: 22--

"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. "

What is Paul saying in Romans 6: 22?

Look at the context!

Rom 6:6....our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— [explain:] 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

What Paul is stating is that your old life from Adam died in the humanity of Christ. Hence as far as the law is concerned, you are dead killed by the law itself. Dead man can't sin, now can they? That's what Paul means by "no longer slaves to sin"....

Rom 8:1-2 says the same:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

"In Christ" our humanity was freed from the sin nature and the wages of sin, death. Again, that's Paul's foundation. Yes, you are to consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God by faith, but in reality you know we come up short. Hence, if we say we are without sin...well, we are terribly deceived.

Come on John, you're light years off in your theology. Do you know why? Tradition & you refuse to accept anything outside the limited knowledge of Ellen White. That's no different than the Lutheran who won't accept anything outside Martin Luther teachings.

ROb

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is true that God made the world and Adam and Eve perfect, but that does not prove your point that since the Fall, the Sabbath no longer points to God as our Creator.

Again, He created Adam perfect. We are fallen....We are not in the likeness of God, but rather Adam after the fall.

So?

How does the fact that we are fallen show that the Sabbath no longer points to God as the Creator? The texts dealing with the subject do not say any such thing as you are making it out to say.

Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation ONLY IF MAN AND THE WORLD IS STILL PERFECT TODAY? It does not say that, does it?

You are making an assumption when you make the connection, unless you see a Bible text that itself makes the connection.

What is the strongest case for your point?

I am open to your idea here, but I have to see it in the Bible, and you've so far not given me that evidence. You have only given me an assumption and a conclusion.

[Robert]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that when we rest on the Sabbath, we are agreeing that the world is perfect NOW.

John....You are not listening! I said that the Sabbath is a sign that God's work of creation was perfect. That's why He rested. He didn't begin creating again after the 7th day. His rest was a perpetual rest until the fall.

Go to Ex 20:11

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work...."

Why remember? Because it is tied back to the creation of the world.

Why does it command "no work"? What does me not doing any work have to do with the Sabbath?

Answer: Who rested? Right, God!

Why did He rest?

Answer: Because His work was final...it was complete and it was perfect. That's what it says in the Genesis account, which is linked to the 4th commandment.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. "

What is Paul saying in Romans 6: 22?

Look at the context!

Rom 6:6....our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— [explain:] 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

What Paul is stating is that your old life from Adam died in the humanity of Christ. Hence as far as the law is concerned, you are dead killed by the law itself. Dead man can't sin, now can they? That's what Paul means by "no longer slaves to sin"....

Rom 8:1-2 says the same:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

"In Christ" our humanity was freed from the sin nature and the wages of sin, death. Again, that's Paul's foundation. Yes, you are to consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God by faith, but in reality you know we come up short. Hence, if we say we are without sin...well, we are terribly deceived.

Come on John, you're light years off in your theology. Do you know why? Tradition & you refuse to accept anything outside the limited knowledge of Ellen White. That's no different than the Lutheran who won't accept anything outside Martin Luther teachings.

ROb

1) Are all Christians who have been justified "freed from sin" in the sense that is meant in Romans 6?

2) Are all Christians who have accepted Christ a "slave of righteousness"?

3) Is the man of Romans 7 "freed from sin" and "a slave of righteousness"?

[Robert]

I have to see it in the Bible, and you've so far not given me that evidence.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness....27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

.... And it was so. 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good [perfect] . And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and set it apart, [why?] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Why did God rest?

[Robert]

1) Are all Christians who have been justified "freed from sin" in the sense that is meant in Romans 6?

[John317]

OK, sure, I can see that God rested and made the Sabbath because He was finished making the world and that the world was perfect at that time, before the Fall.

Now what I am trying to see is how the Fall changed the reason for keeping the Sabbath-- which was due to God's being our Creator.

It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. Therefore, once it was no longer perfect, how did that fact change the fundamental truth that God created us?

Also, who do you believe was the first person to see this idea? When does it first occur in the history of Christian theology?

[Robert]

It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect.

You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested!

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work"

Again, why did God rest?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect.

You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested!

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work"

Again, why did God rest?

The verses are clear: God rested, not because He was tired, but because His creation was sinless...it was perfect.

So the Sabbath from God's point of view marks the day that His perfect, sinless work stood complete. He entered a perpetual rest. "His rest" is a symbol...a sign...that His work stood finished and perfect.

Now, when you rest as God rested what are you stating, symbolically? Are you not agreeing with God?

What does your not working have to do with God's not working?

Yes?

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect.

You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested!

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work"

Again, why did God rest?

OK. You are saying then that since the world is no longer perfect, that fact of itself means it is no longer valid to rest or keep the Sabbath because of creation.

Why then did God put the memorial of the Sabbath in the center of the Ten Commandments, drawing attention to His creation-- and this, long after the world was no longer perfect?

When did this understanding first appear, so far as you know?

This teaching requires a certain deduction and is not something plainly stated or taught in Scripture. Do you agree?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested!

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect']....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work"

Again, why did God rest?

OK. You are saying then that since the world is no longer perfect, that fact of itself means it is no longer valid to rest or keep the Sabbath because of creation.

I am saying that God rested because His works was "....."

And when we rest we are agreeing with that truth....But it's no longer true. That's why we see a change in the law from creation...to redemption.

[John317]

The verses are clear: God rested, not because He was tired, but because His creation was sinless...it was perfect.

So the Sabbath from God's point of view marks the day that His perfect, sinless work stood complete. He entered a perpetual rest. "His rest" is a symbol...a sign...that His work stood finished and perfect.

Now, when you rest as God rested what are you stating, symbolically? Are you not agreeing with God?

What does your not working have to do with God's not working?

Yes?

Rob

When I rest as God rested-- that is, when I rest from my work as He rested from His work-- I am stating that I agree that God created a perfect world. I am also stating that I believe a time is coming when I will have eternal rest in a perfect world of the future.

Show me that this is wrong thinking if you believe it is wrong.

[Robert]

Here's Jack:

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

The creature/Creator relationship was always to be a relationship of total dependence. God never created man to live independent of Him. That’s why Jesus said,

Without Me you can do nothing.

Now we must apply this also in terms of salvation.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me and I in you.

That was always. So when Adam sinned he departed from God-dependence. In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

[Robert]

When I rest as God rested-- that is, when I rest from my work as He rested from His work-- I am stating that I agree that God created a perfect world.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>In the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, the reading is 1000 years older than the text that most modern Bibles are translated from. There are very few differences but one important difference is in Deut. 5.

Quote:

JASD--“The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.”

I'm talking about the texts of the books of the Bible, not the extrabiblical books. The only ones relevant to us are those contained in Scripture.

It does not matter for our purposes here that there were books among the Dead Sea Scrolls that we do not accept. What is important is that the books of the Bible are almost identical with those same books found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, proving that they had not undergone much change and had been very carefully copied over those many centuries. It supports the trustworthiness of God's word.

[John317]

Here's Jack:

...... When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. ....

Here's the thing for me: Jack Sequeira concludes, "So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath."

Notice that he does not quote the Bible to that effect. And why not? Because the Bible nowhere says it.

What is the clearest Bible statement that the significance of the Sabbath was destroyed by the Fall? It requires a deduction, a deduction that seems to me to be highly suspect because it appears to contradict plain Bible statements and also because it is contradicted by so many things in the Spirit of prophecy.

[John317]

Rob, when did this view of the Sabbath first appear in the history of Christian, Biblical theology? The view, that is, that the purpose of the Sabbath as a memorial of creation was destroyed? So far as you know, who was the first to teach it?

[Robert]

Concerning the Sabbath, Luther said: “If Carlstadt keeps on he will have us observing Sunday on Saturday.” So Luther admitted that the fourth commandment had to do with Saturday. But he said that it was not binding on the Christian because it did not belong to the natural law (i.e., you shall not kill, commit adultery, etc.)

Now Ellen White said Luther would be in heaven, yet he rejected the Sabbath because he said it wasn't transferred to the NC. You might disagree with him, but apparently the 4th commandment isn't an issue of salvation as you try to make it.

The Sabbath is really an end-time symbol. Until the gospel is fully restored folks will continue to misunderstand the Sabbath on both sides. The Adventist makes it an issue of salvation. Naturally the Sunday-keeper rejects this notion as legalistic.

[Robert]

Rob, when did this view of the Sabbath first appear in the history of Christian, Biblical theology? The view, that is, that the purpose of the Sabbath as a memorial of creation was destroyed? So far as you know, who was the first to teach it?

"The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith." [GC 595]

Now that I've destroyed this notion that "the voice of the majority" doesn't mean that they alone know and have truth, let me "axe" you a question:

Why did God rest that first Sabbath?

[Robert]

Notice that he does not quote the Bible to that effect. And why not? Because the Bible nowhere says it.

I only gave you a snippet of what Jack says concerning the Sabbath. I've given you Bible, but you refuse to accept it. It sounds like you have the problem, John.

Again, why did God rest? Was he tired? Did He need a coffee break? Symbolically, what does "God's rest" mean?

Here's Bible:

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished [no more creating...no more working], and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and set it apart, [why?] because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.

Now of course there's no command to keep the Sabbath here, but the point is that God rested because His work was "finished" - His work was "very good" (perfect). Hence, the Sabbath is always a symbol of God's finished works:

a] At creation it symbolized a perfect & sinless creation .

b] At the cross it symbolized a perfect & complete redemption.

c] In heaven it will symbolize a perfect and complete restoration.

"A" is an unfinished work because of the fall!

"B" is true today* and will be until the resurrection.

"C" will be true when we receive eternal life.

* "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Rob, when did this view of the Sabbath first appear in the history of Christian, Biblical theology? The view, that is, that the purpose of the Sabbath as a memorial of creation was destroyed? So far as you know, who was the first to teach it?

"The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith." [GC 595]

Why not just tell what you know of the history of the concept, if you have any information? Who did you learn it from?

Quote:

Now that I've destroyed this notion that "the voice of the majority" doesn't mean that they alone know and have truth, let me "axe" you a question:

You are making an assumption that is not true. I don't have the notion that the majority are always right. In fact, I believe history shows it's usually a minority who are right.

Quote:

Why did God rest that first Sabbath?

Because He had completed the creation of the world and mankind.

God wanted a special time for mankind to rest, consider what the Creator had done, and meet with Him in order to become better acquainted. The Sabbath was blessed as an appointed time. The word, "blessed," carries the connotation of appointment; meaning blessed with a purpose. Jesus said it was made for the benefit of man, and Adam and Eve constituted "man".