Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Robert]

Do those those quotes say, "We will continue to live a life of sin"?.... (Lest you misunderstand: This does not mean a person is sinless or thinks he is living up to all the law or not falling short of God's glory.)

As long as you are not living up to all the law...you are falling short of God's love...and hence you continue to live a life of sin. This, however, doesn't deny growth and overcoming certain besetting sins through Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

.... You can "repent" of it after you do it but if you are doing it every day' date=' and are not overcoming it-- but are being overcome by it-- then it is a practiced sin. [/quote']

No John, it would be a besetting sin!

OK, we can agree.

[Gerr]

Quote:

NOT: "By faith Abraham kept on living a life of sin."

Gerry

The point is that Abraham is saved. But he did continue to live a life of sin.

It is not an all or nothing deal Gerry. We do both. We obey and we sin. And we will until the day we die.

Do both? Slave to sin and slave to righteousness? Friend, it is impossible to serve two masters. Jesus made that very clear, Mt. 6:24. According to our Lord, it is ALL OR NONE. He says, "am a jealous God," Ex 20:5, Dt 5:9. Jesus is to be Lord in our life or none at all!!!

Quote:

But if you have your eyes on your sins ... you will really die and die eternally. But instead ... I would invite you to keep your eyes on Jesus. Keep that as your focus and your works will come automatically.

Red, you have me all confused. On the one hand, you are telling me to keep my focus on Jesus and the works of obedience will come automatically. I believe that 1 trillion %!!! BUT how then can you say that a believer who does that will continue to live a life of righteousness and also continue to live a life of sin? I can guarantee you that if you keep your own counsel to keep your eyes on Jesus, you will cease, stop, terminate, put an end to living/obeying the dictates of sin.

Now, that doesn't mean you will never again make a mistake. I've said it before and I'll say it again. As long as we are in this flesh, we will never be completely be free from wrongdoing. But wrongdoing/sin as a WAY OF LIFE, slave to everything the flesh dictates, deliberately/willfully/intentionally commiting them? That is impossible! Paul says: "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! [God forbid! -KJV] We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Rom 6:1,2 NIV

Gerry

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You keep accusing me of misrepresentation, so here are your exact words:

Quote:

So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation".

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

If you still have the assurance of salvation "even though we keep living a life of sin...", doesn't that make obedience optional?

Gerry

You still don't get it?

Obedience is the result. Period. It is automatic. It's like breathing. It's not optional to breathe. It just happens.

Well, somebody must not be getting it. What you are telling me is that I can breathe and hold my breath at the same time!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

I have to laugh at all this. We each have our own definitions. Some are forceful that THEIR definitions are the ONLY ones. Reminds me of second grade.

Its MINE. NO. It's MINE. And we grab and pull. Rip and Tear.

Childish. Just Childish.

The truth is .... some here just do not want to admit that there are other views other than the one they want to cherish. But there is more than one way to look at things.

EGW seemed to be able to express things in more than one way. But some think they have to grab only one.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yeah, Robert acknowledges a little growth, but obedience? No! That's anathema!

Gerry

Obedience? If I obey the law...especially its spirit as did Christ...then that's obedience. What you do is maybe at best partial obedience. But then I can't read your heart. It might be zero obedience because it could be 100% self-righteousness. Only God knows, but you talk just like Job before trouble came his way.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Jesus, in Jn 3:36 ESV.

"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12 ESV.

You can charge disobedience, or partial obedience, or no obedience at all, but the Bible assures me that "God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin he condemened sin in the flesh. IN ORDER THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." Rom 8:3,4 ESV.

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in, but we are assured that, "when it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth to that end,God accepts it as man's best effort...." The perfect righteousness of Christ is accepted on his behalf. The righteousness required by the law is fully met. But note that this becomes reality only in believers who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Gerry

[Gerr]

I have to laugh at all this. We each have our own definitions. Some are forceful that THEIR definitions are the ONLY ones. Reminds me of second grade.

Its MINE. NO. It's MINE. And we grab and pull. Rip and Tear.

Childish. Just Childish.

The truth is .... some here just do not want to admit that there are other views other than the one they want to cherish. But there is more than one way to look at things.

EGW seemed to be able to express things in more than one way. But some think they have to grab only one.

That's why it is helpful to use standard definitions. A dictionary provides that. When we use our own definitions, that results in confusion.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in, but we are assured that, "when it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth to that end,God accepts it as man's best effort...." The perfect righteousness of Christ is accepted on his behalf. The righteousness required by the law is fully met. But note that this becomes reality only in believers who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Oh My. Here we are ... Back to the :

My Works + God's Works = Salvation

This equation just don't work Gerry.

We are saved by the works of God that he accomplished 2,000 years ago. It is his life and death by which we are saved. The works that are accomplished in our lives ... just do not amount to a hill of beans. They are as filthy rags towards our salvation. There is nothing that we can bring to the table that would merit anything. What matters ... happened 2,000 years ago.

I pray that you will be able to experience this knowledge and assurance in your life. It will give you peace and joy.

[Woody]

Quote:

That's why it is helpful to use standard definitions. A dictionary provides that. When we use our own definitions, that results in confusion.

Perhaps we should just use John317's definitions. If you look at any dictionary ... you will find far more than one definition. But what I see lacking is some tolerance for anyone else's belief other than the big 'I' .

Personally ... I think this is really sad. No ... I think it is self centered and selfish. I see this issue going on throughout the church. A lack of tolerance for any one to see things differently than the big 'I'.

It's like a turf battle. But it is really shameful. What is the one thing that Jesus preached about? Was it the dictionary? NO. The issue was love for one another. If we had that ... we would not need to focus on which definition we use . Or which dictionary we use.

[Woody]

Well. I don't know the intention. But, the 'podium pounding' sure came along.

Same o' Same o'

If only the ears were functioning along with the fists.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in, but we are assured that, "when it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth to that end,God accepts it as man's best effort...." The perfect righteousness of Christ is accepted on his behalf. The righteousness required by the law is fully met. But note that this becomes reality only in believers who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Oh My. Here we are ... Back to the :

My Works + God's Works = Salvation

This equation just don't work Gerry.

We are saved by the works of God that he accomplished 2,000 years ago. It is his life and death by which we are saved. The works that are accomplished in our lives ... just do not amount to a hill of beans. They are as filthy rags towards our salvation. There is nothing that we can bring to the table that would merit anything. What matters ... happened 2,000 years ago.

I pray that you will be able to experience this knowledge and assurance in your life. It will give you peace and joy.

Here is Jesus' equation for salvation that I subscribe to, not what you paint me as teaching:

"Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Jn 3:36 ESV.

i.e. Faith - works = wrath

Works - faith = death

Faith that works = Salvation.

What happened 2000 yrs ago is of no use if it does not work in a changed life today.

Gerry

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in, but we are assured that, "when it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth to that end,God accepts it as man's best effort...." The perfect righteousness of Christ is accepted on his behalf. The righteousness required by the law is fully met. But note that this becomes reality only in believers who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Oh My. Here we are ... Back to the :

My Works + God's Works = Salvation

This equation just don't work Gerry.

We are saved by the works of God that he accomplished 2,000 years ago. It is his life and death by which we are saved. The works that are accomplished in our lives ... just do not amount to a hill of beans. They are as filthy rags towards our salvation. There is nothing that we can bring to the table that would merit anything. What matters ... happened 2,000 years ago.

I pray that you will be able to experience this knowledge and assurance in your life. It will give you peace and joy.

Here is Jesus' equation for salvation that I subscribe to, not what you paint me as teaching:

"Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Jn 3:36 ESV.

i.e. Faith - works = wrath

Works - faith = death

Faith that works = Salvation.

What happened 2000 yrs ago is of no use if it does not work in a changed life today.

Gerry

What you fail to realize is :

Works are the Result of Faith. They happen automatically. It is not possible to have one and not the other.

What happened 2,000 years ago gives us salvation. That IS of great use immediately. And it does immediately produce change automatically. Again ... it is not possible to have one and not the other. So, all this emphasis on works just makes no sense. The works will be there immediately and automatically. This is the result of faith and salvation.

What is harmful is all this focus on works. This is the tool of the Devil. Anything that takes our focus OFF of Jesus ... is evil.

Keep your eyes on Jesus friends.

[Woody]

[BobRyan]

Justification by faith (Romans 5) is the past event where a lost person came to Christ - was born again -- was saved apart from any "deeds".

But as we see in James 2 (you see then that man is not justified by faith alone) is the future justification of Romans 2 where "it is not the hearers of the law that ARE just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified).

Justification past is what changes your salvation status. It is individual, subjective and life-changing for the sinner.

Justificatoin future (as we see in Romans 2) merely confirms what already is -- you already are either a born-again Christian or you are not -- and as Matt 7 points out "by their fruits they SHALL be known". Hence in Daniel 7 the books are opened and the court sits for judgment.

Be that as it may - the topic "Is the Sabbath for Jews" gets answered in Mark 2 -- "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND not mankind for the Sabbath" and in Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Bob

[Robert]

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in,

[Robert]

What happened 2000 yrs ago is of no use if it does not work in a changed life today.

Really?

Tell that to the thief on the cross.

Tell that to the baby who died before he/she could reason.

Tell that to mentally hand-capped adult who has the reasoning skills of a small child.

Tell that to the billions who have never heard the name of Christ.....

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What happened 2000 yrs ago is of no use if it does not work in a changed life today.

Really?

.................

Thanks for addressing some of the wild things that come up here Robert. I just get tired of answering and catching them all. So, I am glad that you are here. I appreciate your comments.

[Robert]

But as we see in James 2 (you see then that man is not justified by faith alone) is the future justification of Romans 2 where "it is not the hearers of the law that ARE just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified).

Let's examine your statement:

Romans 2:12 all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

"Under the law" means ruled by the law. To be under law is old covenant, that is, you must obey to live, but if you disobey you must die. The law doesn't give out credit.

So if you wish to be justified by law you must be a doer of the law, but since all have sinned and are falling short of God's agape, the law condemns you.

Rob

[Woody]

Thanks for clarifying that Rob.

We are ALL judged by the law.

Those who are wicked ... they are judged by their own works against the Holy Law. They will be found guilty because ALL sin.

The faithful followers or Christ are also judged by the Law. But since they accept Jesus ... the works of Jesus are placed to their account. And when the faithful are compared to the Law .... they are found to perfectly obey. This is because the Father beholds not their sinful life and character ... but the life and character of the Son when he came to this earth and lived a perfect life.

Thank you Jesus. I have nothing to add to what Jesus has done. He did it all.

[BobRyan]

The context of Romans 2 is found in vs 4 "the goodness of God leads you to repentance".

In Romans 2:10-13 Paul explicitly reveals that this future justification is "Gospel justification" for he shows that it is presented "on the day when accoring to my Gospel God will judge".

In Romans 2:5-10 Paul shows that there are BOTH succeeding cases and failing case.

In Matt 7 Christ argues the same point as Paul does "not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul is not arguing "justification exists apart from the Gospel".

It is Gospel justification that he is speaking about because it is justification that results from a Gospel judgment that is future.

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues "neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

This is why Paul can make the argument in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!"

Bob

[Woody]

Thanks for clarifying that Rob.

We are ALL judged by the law.

Those who are wicked ... they are judged by their own works against the Holy Law. They will be found guilty because ALL sin.

The faithful followers or Christ are also judged by the Law. But since they accept Jesus ... the works of Jesus are placed to their account. And when the faithful are compared to the Law .... they are found to perfectly obey. This is because the Father beholds not their sinful life and character ... but the life and character of the Son when he came to this earth and lived a perfect life.

Thank you Jesus. I have nothing to add to what Jesus has done. He did it all.

Let me just add that we do have a part to play ... and that is to acknowledge our Lord that He is our Saviour and to repent as to the sinful state of our life.

[BobRyan]

The faithful followers or Christ are also judged by the Law. But since they accept Jesus ... the works of Jesus are placed to their account.

That does not work in the future judgment of Dan 7 where the books are opened and the saints are judged according to THEIR deeds.

Notice we see the same thing in 2Cor 5:10 "For we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done -- whether they be good OR evil".

Notice that Christ argues the case "not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of my Father" Matt 7.

I think it is safe to say that all agree that not everyone who claims to be Christian - who says all the right words -- is actually going to heaven. Christ says that the proof is in the tree's fruit -- that the tree has been in fact transformed into a "good tree".

But suppose for a moment that the way they know which tree is good in the Christian church (which Christian is really born again and saved) is by substituting in the works of Christ for the Christian and saying -- hey this one is good!

Using that model - which Christian would fail?

Answer - none! It would not matter what they did -- it would not matter that they did not do the will of the Father. If all who make the claim are covered - then there is no such thing as the Matt 7 test. It would be impossible or it would be entirely arbitrary.

Imagine that someone failed the test of Matt 7 in the future judgment and when we ask why - Christ said "because I did not substitute my works in for them" and when we ask "why" Christ said "because I did not think they were really saved".

At which point you ask "then why are we going through this open books judgment thing in Dan 7 and 2Cor 5 and Romans 2 -- you just tell us who you think is saved and we are done since we can't actually know the difference between lost and saved -- all we can know is that you arbitrarily pick some to cover and not others".

In other words the whole point of the I.J was to provide objective "evidence" of the justice and mercy of God that was "verifiable" in that court setting. (compelling data needed to reach the ideal conclusion in an Arminian system as seen in the book of Job for example).

But if the whole thing is rigged into an arbitrary selection process then what would you say to finding out that your own precious child was "arbitrarily not selected"?

Wouldn't that be a tough way to live eternity?

I think this is the problem God solves with his verifiable objective corporate "court room" Daniel 7 judgment event where "each one must stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account for the deeds done in the body - whether they be good or evil" and at the end "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" but not of the "bad trees" that had bad fruit and were merely "saying Lord Lord" and all the other right phrases.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Okay. Someone else step in. I can see that this will be a hard nut to crack. I simply don't have the energy. It is too late. And honestly ... it's just plain gettin old.

Bob ... I need to ask you a question ... Are you sure your name isn't Gerry or John?

And to use this analogy just really hits me hard ...

Quote:

but not of the "bad trees"

Signing off .... A 'good' Redwood tree .....

[BobRyan]

Sorry - I have not been here long enough to know what that means -- but the answer is -- I am really "Bob".

Get some sleep brother!

(edit: That smiley emotocon keeps winking like he knows something -- maybe I should a used

Bob

[Woody]

You is cool. Sorry for the inside joke.