Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 "REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...." Ex 20:8 ESV "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ARK OF HIS COVENANT WAS SEEN WITHIN HIS TEMPLE." Rev 11:19 ESV Not only is it a sign of sanctification (Ex 31:12-14, 16,17), it is also a COMMAND, not a suggestion, to be kept. Gerry Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Gerry. YOU HONESTLY THINK THE COMMANDMENTS are a COMMAND? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And because our salvation is totally dependent on the merits of Christ, that whether you obey God's law or not has no bearing on your salvation? That you can lie, steal, fornicate, bow to idols, and still have the assurance of salvation? Gerry Gerry, why limit the rules to just those few you named? Let's name harder ones, okay? Oh, yeah, that's right...self-love is from God! Ellen doesn't agree: "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. But the law of self-sacrifice [agape love] is the law of self-preservation." [COL 86] Do you still feel holy? Rob Here we go again: "You shall love your neighbor AS yourself." Club people on the head with EGW whenever suitable, and ignore the rest of what she says when not convenient. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Gerry. YOU HONESTLY THINK THE COMMANDMENTS are a COMMAND? Are you kidding me? Are they called, "The 10 Suggestions?" "The 10 Options?". Tell us what you think! Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo And because our salvation is totally dependent on the merits of Christ, that whether you obey God's law or not has no bearing on your salvation? That you can lie, steal, fornicate, bow to idols, and still have the assurance of salvation? Gerry Gerry, why limit the rules to just those few you named? Let's name harder ones, okay? Oh, yeah, that's right...self-love is from God! Ellen doesn't agree: "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. But the law of self-sacrifice [agape love] is the law of self-preservation." [COL 86] Do you still feel holy? Rob Do you know how many species of love the English word "love" covers? And what's your point for pointing out sin if the believer can take with him to heaven anyway? Gerry Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Gerry. YOU HONESTLY THINK THE COMMANDMENTS are a COMMAND? Are you kidding me? Are they called, "The 10 Suggestions?" "The 10 Options?". Tell us what you think! Gerry I would describe them as a Goal to achieve. Some will miss the mark yet they are still saved. A command implies that if the command is not done that they would be lost. However ... this is not true. We will miss the mark and yet be saved. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Not only is it a sign of sanctification (Ex 31:12-14, 16,17), it is also a COMMAND, not a suggestion, to be kept. There's two ways to look at this. Turn to Hebrews 10:10 By this will [God's will] we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. So in this setting we have been set apart. The other meaning of sanctification is growth...as in being sanctified. If the Sabbath points to an ongoing act then it becomes meaningless. Why? Again, the Sabbath always points to perfect and complete act in which God is resting from. DO you already stand sanctified "in Christ"? Yes...then that is complete and the Sabbath makes sense. However, if you are referring to the process of sanctification this is always incomplete and ongoing. Hence it can't point to a finished and perfect work. That means once again you are being the legalist! Redwood, look how Gerry uses the Bible. He says, "it is also a COMMAND, not a suggestion". That's a sure sign that a legalist is behind such....He's confused, but he wants to glory in your flesh if you do as he says.... Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Quote: DO you already stand sanctified "in Christ"? Yes...then that is complete and the Sabbath makes sense. However, if you are referring to the process of sanctification this is always incomplete and ongoing. Hence it can't point to a finished and perfect work. That means once again you are being the legalist! Thank you Robert. This I can grasp and agree with. Has this always been your point in this issue of the Sabbath? I hope so. Because I can fully agree with this. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Here we go again: "You shall love your neighbor AS yourself." Club people on the head with EGW whenever suitable, and ignore the rest of what she says when not convenient. Gerry Better yet...look to Christ's life. He fulfilled the law! Where's that selfishness...where that's capitalism and striving to be number one? Now look at your life! What do you see? Answer: A marked difference. You are selfish and Christ is selfless.... Now since you have taken the position that God's commandments aren't 10 suggestions, then you better get busy living Christ's life in every detail. Oh, too late...the law says you must die! Quote
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Thank you Robert. This I can grasp and agree with. Has this always been your point in this issue of the Sabbath? I hope so. Because I can fully agree with this. TU Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Thank you Robert. This I can grasp and agree with. Has this always been your point in this issue of the Sabbath? I hope so. Because I can fully agree with this. TU Sorry I have been so slow to support you. I can be dense some times. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Are you kidding me? Are they called' date=' "The 10 Suggestions?" "The 10 Options?". Tell us what you think! Gerry [/quote'] I would describe them as a Goal to achieve. Some will miss the mark yet they are still saved. A command implies that if the command is not done that they would be lost. However ... this is not true. We will miss the mark and yet be saved. It is written: [color:red] "And He wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the TEN COMMANDMENTS that the LORD had spoken...."Dt 10:4 ESV. There's a world of difference between those who by faith obey with love, mind, might, heart, and soul, and miss the mark from those who deliberately and willfully miss the mark. It is written: "For if we go on sinning DELIBERATELY after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." Heb 10:26 ESV "The soul who sins shall die.....But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should TURN FROM his way and live? But when a righteous person TURNS AWAY from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die." Ez 18:20, 21-24 ESV Gerry Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 The key here is 'after knowing' . And I think that with most as in the case of homosexuality ... they simply do not believe it to be sin. Thus it is not held against them according to what you and John have said. Once the Holy Spirit has convicted them then that is a different thing. For certain ... if I thought what I as doing was sin and would keep me from heaven ... I would think twice about doing that sin. I might even think three or four times. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 The sin in Hebrews 10 is the sin of unbelief. As to the other quote, take it as it reads: The soul that sins shall die. You've sinned and you are sinning. Therefore you must die. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Sanctification is a past and present experience. Past: [color:red]"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the bdy of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10 ESV Present: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV Gerry Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Present: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV Gerry NASB (not paraphrased) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Present: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV Gerry NASB (not paraphrased) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. From the ESV-Greek Reverse Interlinear NT, "are being sanctified": verb, participle, accusative, plural, masculine, PRESENT, passive, [Greek morphology - Swanson]. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 The sin in Hebrews 10 is the sin of unbelief. As to the other quote, take it as it reads: The soul that sins shall die. You've sinned and you are sinning. Therefore you must die. Rob "But if a wicked person TURNS AWAY FROM ALL HIS SINS that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die." Ez 18:21 ESV "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1&4 NKJ. "But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and thing like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that THOSE WHO DO SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is NO LAW. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." Gal 5:18-25 ESV. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. FOR SIN WILL HAVE NO DOMINION OVER YOU, SINCE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE." Rom 6:12-14 ESV. Who goes to jail? The one who is obeying the law? Or the one who lives a life of LAWLESSNESS? "SO I WILL LIVE IN FREEDOM, BECAUSE I WANT TO FOLLOW YOUR ORDERS." Ps 119:45 NCV "But the one who looks into the perfect law, THE LAW OF LIBERTY, and perseveres, BEING NO HEARER WHO FORGETS BUT A DOER WHO ACTS, HE WILL BE BLESSED IN HIS DOING." Jam 1:25 ESV. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 The sin in Hebrews 10 is the sin of unbelief. As to the other quote, take it as it reads: The soul that sins shall die. You've sinned and you are sinning. Therefore you must die. Rob Since you are a stickler to context, let's see what sins Heb 10:26 is talking about. In Heb 10:3, it says: [color:red]"But in these sacrifices [animal] there is a reminder of sinS every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sinS." .....10:12 "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sinS, He sat down at the right hand of God...." Is the writer just talking only about the sin of unbelief that atonement was being made for? Clearly not. Atonement was made for ALL kinds of sins. So, when the writer says, "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sinS, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." 10:26 ESV, he is talking ANY AND EVERY KIND OF SIN. Notice the PLURAL "sinS". Furthermore, what does unbelief lead to? "And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT? So we see that they were unable to enter because of UNBELIEF." Heb 3:18 ESV. So according to the writer of Hebrews, UNBELIEF = DISOBEDIENCE, and vice versa. Gerry Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Present: "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Heb 10:14 ESV Gerry NASB (not paraphrased) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. The NT uses sanctification in both ways: there is sanctification that is virtually synonymous with justification, but it is also used as a process. It's common knowledge as I'm sure you realize. As justification, or instantaneously and completed: 1 Cor. 6:11; Acts 2o: 32. As process: Romans 6:19; Hebrews 12: 14; 1 Peter 1: 15, etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Quote: DO you already stand sanctified "in Christ"? Yes...then that is complete and the Sabbath makes sense. Whether you are sanctified or not, it is still the sign of His creative power. IT IS WRITTEN: [color:red]"REMEMBER, the Sabbath day,....For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." Quote: However, if you are referring to the process of sanctification this is always incomplete and ongoing. Hence it can't point to a finished and perfect work. That means once again you are being the legalist! If that makes me a legalist for upholding God's law, then I'm in good company. GOD: "You shall have no other gods before me." "You shall not make for yourself a carved image..." "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD WILL NOT HOLD HIM GUILTLESS WHO TAKES HIS NAME IN VAIN." "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." "Honor your father & your mother..." "You shall not murder." "You shall not commit adultery." "You shall not steal." "You shall not bear false witness..." "You shall not covet..." JESUS: "If you love me, you WILL keep my COMMANDMENTS." Quote: Redwood, look how Gerry uses the Bible. He says, "it is also a COMMAND, not a suggestion". That's a sure sign that a legalist is behind such....He's confused, but he wants to glory in your flesh if you do as he says.... See comment above. Gerry Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Ellen White argued that the great majority of the saints were "outside the Adventist denomination". The argument of scripture is "To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4. We can trust God in this case for HE IS "The Spirit of truth that convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment". Our role is not to work ourselves up into a state of thinking that only an Adventist can be saved - (something that hopefully no one is arguing here) - but rather to follow the Holy Spirit -- saying whatever HE LEADS us to say via doors HE opens. ... All very true, Bob. Rest assured that no one on this thread is arguing that only Adventists can be saved. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 The key here is 'after knowing' . And I think that with most as in the case of homosexuality ... they simply do not believe it to be sin. Thus it is not held against them according to what you and John have said. Once the Holy Spirit has convicted them then that is a different thing. It is not simply a matter of whether someone says they believe something is not a sin. God alone reads the heart and sees how much a person knows and whether they have opportunity to know the truth. I've known people who've said that they didn't want to know the Bible because if they knew the Bible, they would be held accountable for it. They felt they would not be held accountable if they were ignorant. But the Bible talks about those who are "willingly ignorant." Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." The difference is that if a person has honestly and sincerely accepted Christ, their sins of true ignorance are covered by Jesus' blood and righteousness. But the Holy Spirit in time will convict them of their sin. The Holy Spirit will work on their hearts as long as they are receptive and there's any hope of repentance. He worked on my heart for 30 years, so the Holy Spirit does not give up easily. The thing is I am not so sure that we have 30 more years for the Holy Spirit to work on our hearts. Jesus may come before 30 more years pass. He could. It depends on the church. Quote: For certain ... if I thought what I as doing was sin and would keep me from heaven ... I would think twice about doing that sin. I might even think three or four times. Why do you need to think of sin in that way before you stop doing it? What we should be thinking of is what those sins did to Christ and how they harm our personal relationship with Christ and make Him look bad. Otherwise we are just thinking of sin in a selfish way. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 GOD: "You shall have no other gods before me." "You shall not make for yourself a carved image..." "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD WILL NOT HOLD HIM GUILTLESS WHO TAKES HIS NAME IN VAIN." "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." "Honor your father & your mother..." "You shall not murder." "You shall not commit adultery." "You shall not steal." "You shall not bear false witness..." "You shall not covet..." And Christ expanded the law. He taught that self-seeking and self-love were sin also. You keep the letter, Gerry, but you fail to keep the spirit. So cut the self-righteous nonsense. Rob Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin! It will become a seal. When it does become an issue those who oppose it will also oppose the "truth as it is in Christ" (the gospel)! Self-love...and self-seeking (which you keep ignoring) are the sins of iniquity. Ellen White clearly brings this out....So does the Bible. But the self-righteous ignores this. Clearly you are not measuring up, yet you keep pounding folks with law, law, law. And what's ironic is you only list the ones you can outwardly keep and those you can't you ignore. What utter self-righteousness! Quote
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