Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Jn 3:36 ESV.

Lets take a slightly different approach to this text. First part says beleives, a requirement for life, which if you do believe, you have it. In the second part, it says obey, part of the first, so what is the connection? To not believe is to not obey is how I read it. Not a condition for the first part but merely the opposite of believe. What is the wrath of God...Death! With out believing in God, we are doomed to death because of choice.

I can't see anything about works in this text, no faith and works, just believe. You may be able to find faith and works tied together in some other text, but not this one. It is simple repeating the theme of John 3:16.

Believing does indicate a changing process.

In case you didn't notice, the formula I gave is NOT: Faith AND works = Salvation!!!

It is: Faith THAT works = Salvation!!!

Obedience IS work!!!

If you don't see it in that text, perhaps these will make it more clear?

"For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only FAITH WORKING through love." Gal 5:6 ESV.

"By faith Abraham obeyed...." Heb 11:8 ESV.

"You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE along with his [Abraham's] works, and faith was completed by his works..." Jam 2:22 ESV

Gerry

[BobRyan]

Reddogs - Excellent post!!

http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...he_J#Post186432

Thanks!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

As Christ said "not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" in Matt 7.

In James 2 the same point is made "one man SAYS he has faith but then has no works - can that FAITH save him"?

The idea is not that "the lost person WORKS to get to the point of having faith" as some have supposed. The idea is that the GOOD tree (created supernaturally at the moment of justification - the NEW Birth - the NEW creation ) produces GOOD fruit.

Just stating what has already been said here -- but it is fun!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

BTW have we already looked at D.L Moody's comments on this same subject?

[Robert]

"By faith Abraham obeyed...." Heb 11:8 ESV.

"You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE along with his [Abraham's] works, and faith was completed by his works..." Jam 2:22 ESV

Gerry

I just love the way legalistic folks take things out of context. Just love it.....It's so natural to deceive in doing this....

Let's first look at the context of Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham, when called [by God] to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

The context is clearly not about obeying the law! Abraham took God at His word....He [Abraham] packed up and left....

Now let's look at James 2:22

21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Was Abraham's faith always mature (complete)? No! You see God promised Abraham a son by Sarah. When the son didn't come along according to Sarah and Abraham's timetable, they decided to help God keep His promise.

You know the story. Abraham, encouraged by his wife, has sex with Hagar. Was this the son of promise? No! So God again tells Abraham that the child of promise will come from Sarah.

Because of Abraham's unbelief (he didn't take God at His word) God waited 13 more years until is was impossible for both Sarah and Abraham to produce children. After this time God appeared again to Abraham and promised a son though Sarah. This time Abraham's faith didn't waver. He took God at His word.

One year later Isaac was born. Remember that God promised Abraham that through Isaac his descendants would number as the stars of the sky.

Sometime later God decides to test the maturity of Abraham's faith. Remember, originally, Abraham tired to help God produce the child of promise. After 13 long years Abraham had learned to take God at His word.

So God comes to Abraham and tells him to take his only son and kill him. Did Abraham obey? Yes! Is that obedience to the law or to God Himself? Right, the latter.

Abraham's faith had grown so strong in God's promises that this time he set out to do as God commanded. Why was Abraham willing to kill Isaac?

Because God had promised that though Isaac, Abraham's children would be as the stars of the sky. Hence, Abraham reasoned, for God to keep His promise He would have to raise Isaac from the dead. I mean if Isaac is dead then God can't fulfill His promise!

Of course God stopped Abraham from taking Isaac's life. But here's the thing...Abraham's faith was now unshakable. Now that's a faith that works, but contextually you can't say this was law/works related!

[Robert]

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Is James contradicting Paul? That's the question.

No. Why not?

James is speaking of "works of faith". The two big examples given are Abraham (who I previously wrote about) and Rahab the prostitute.

Was Rahab justified by her law obedience? No. Why not? She was a practicing prostitute at the time. Then what justified her faith? Well, she lied about the spies so that wasn't it. Then what? She put her own life on the line in order to protect the spies! Why? She believed in God. Her belief in God led her faith to work....

Are these works of the law? No! Why not? In the case of Abraham the law says "do not kill". In the case of Rahab it says, "Do not commit adultery" and "do not bear false witness."

That's why Paul says "a man is justified by faith apart from works of law [his goodness]" In fact no one will be saved by his/her law performance, but everyone's faith will be examined in the IJ.

If one's faith is a sham then Jesus will not be able to defend such a person before the accusations of Satan. That person will miss out on heaven and eternity.

So those who are trying to justify themselves through their works of the law will be found wanting [see Gal 5:4]....Their faith is in their law-performance and not God's promise of salvation "in Christ".

ROb

[Woody]

What some forget is that IN Christ we ARE now made perfect. We stand before God perfect. We don't have to 'work' at it . We ARE perfect.

I am happy to say that I am 'perfect'. I am ready for the judgment. For I stand before God 'perfect' through Jesus.

I don't need to continue the striving. In Him ... I am perfect.

If our works are not a natural outflowing of our love ... then they are worthless.

Come Lord Jesus Come.

[Robert]

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 16

-CT- Accepted in Christ

-PR- 04

-PG- 107

The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive " Ellen White in FW 107

Quote:

" They are not to look forward, thinking that at some future time a great work is to be done for them; for the work is now complete. The believer is not called upon to make his peace with God; he never has nor ever can do this. He is to accept Christ as his peace, for with Christ is God and peace. Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. " NL 25

Yes. The work is complete. For ... our "most costly sacrifice (is) meager".

Christ has made "an end to sin". The curse has been taken away!

Praise God !!!

Thank you Jesus

[Woody]

Quote:

"Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am [size:14pt]complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Ellen White 1893 in NL p. 27

Free at Last

Free at Last

Free at Last !!

[Woody]

Quote:

"Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained" NL 20

And that is Faith in what HE has already done. It is Done. It is finished. It is a done deal. Praise God.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"By faith Abraham obeyed...." Heb 11:8 ESV.

"You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE along with his [Abraham's] works, and faith was completed by his works..." Jam 2:22 ESV

Gerry

I just love the way legalistic folks take things out of context. Just love it.....It's so natural to deceive in doing this....

Let's first look at the context of Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham, when called [by God] to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

The context is clearly not about obeying the law! Abraham took God at His word....He [Abraham] packed up and left....

Abraham's faith did not only obey the call to get out of his country. This is what God had to say about his faith:

[color:red]Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my stautes, and my laws." Gen 26:5 ESV.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am [size:14pt]complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Ellen White 1893 in NL p. 27

Free at Last

Free at Last

Free at Last !!

Free while living in the shackles of sin? NOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Is James contradicting Paul? That's the question.

No. Why not?

James is speaking of "works of faith". The two big examples given are Abraham (who I previously wrote about) and Rahab the prostitute.

Was Rahab justified by her law obedience? No. Why not? She was a practicing prostitute at the time. Then what justified her faith? Well, she lied about the spies so that wasn't it. Then what? She put her own life on the line in order to protect the spies! Why? She believed in God. Her belief in God led her faith to work....

Are these works of the law? No! Why not? In the case of Abraham the law says "do not kill". In the case of Rahab it says, "Do not commit adultery" and "do not bear false witness."

That's why Paul says "a man is justified by faith apart from works of law [his goodness]" In fact no one will be saved by his/her law performance, but everyone's faith will be examined in the IJ.

If one's faith is a sham then Jesus will not be able to defend such a person before the accusations of Satan. That person will miss out on heaven and eternity.

So those who are trying to justify themselves through their works of the law will be found wanting [see Gal 5:4]....Their faith is in their law-performance and not God's promise of salvation "in Christ".

ROb

Now, what kind of faith was Paul talking about?

[color:red]"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.

Or was he talking from both sides of his mouth?

God knew the nature of Abraham's faith. So He justified him as soon as he believed, before he could do any works. God knew he meant it. Not like the son who said "yes" to his father to go to work in his vineyard but didn't go. Not like the example given by Jesus who says, "Lord, Lord," but will not do His will. Not like the example of Jesus who hears His words but does not do them and builds his house on sand. Would Abraham been justified had he not followed his belief with action? NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!

The faith Paul talks about is an obedient faith, Rom 1:5, 16:26. It is a faith that works through love, Gal 5:6. It is a faith that does not just hears the law with one ear and goes out the other but does them, Rom 2:13, Jam 1:22. It is a faith that "does no wrong to a neighbor" and therefore by love fulfills the law, Rom 13:10. It is a faith that breathes, moves, walks, according to the Apostle James. If one has such a faith, THEN he/she is justified by grace through faith ALONE.

Gerry

[Gerr]

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 16

-CT- Accepted in Christ

-PR- 04

-PG- 107

The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

"Teachers of falsehood will arise to draw you away from the narrow path and the strait gate. Beware of them; though concealed in sheep's clothing, inwardly they are ravening wolves. Jesus gives a test by which false teachers may be distinguished from the true. 'Ye shall know them by their fruits,' He says. 'Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?'

We are not bidden to prove them by their fair speeches and exalted professions. They are to be judged by the word of God. 'To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them.' 'Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.' Isa 8:20; Prov 19:27. [color:red]What message do these teachers bring? Does it lead you to reverence and fear God? Does it lead you to manifest your love for Him by loyalty to His commandments? If men do not feel the weight of the moral law; if they make light of God's precepts; if they break one of the least of His commandments, and teach men so, they shall be of no esteem in the sight of heaven. We may know that their claims are without foundation. They are doing the very work that originated with the prince darkness, the enemy of God.

Not all who profes His name and wear His badge are Christ's....

There are persons who believe that they are right, when they are wrong. While claiming Christ as their Lord, and professedly doing great works in His name, they are workers of iniquity. 'With their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.' He who declares

God's word is to them 'as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument; for they hear Thy words, BUT THEY DO THEM NOT.' Ez 33:31,32.

A mere profession of discipleship is of no value. The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what is represented to be by many. "BELIVE, BELIEVE," THEY SAY, "AND YOU NEED NOT KEEP THE LAW." BUT A BELIEF THAT DOES NOT LEAD TO OBEDIENCE IS PRESUMPTION.....

Obedience is the test of discipleship. It is the keeping of the commandments that proves the sincerity of our professions of live. When the doctrine we accept kills sin in the heart, purifies the soul from defilement, bears fruit unto holiness, we may know that it is the truth of God. When benevolence, kindness, tenderheartedness, sympathy, are manifest in our lives; when the JOY OF RIGHT DOING is in our hearts; when we exalt Christ, and not self, we may know that our faith is of the right order. "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 Jn 2:3." MB 145-147

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

But as we see in James 2 (you see then that man is not justified by faith alone) is the future justification of Romans 2 where "it is not the hearers of the law that ARE just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified).

Let's examine your statement:

Romans 2:12 all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

"Under the law" means ruled by the law. To be under law is old covenant, that is, you must obey to live, but if you disobey you must die. The law doesn't give out credit.

So if you wish to be justified by law you must be a doer of the law, but since all have sinned and are falling short of God's agape, the law condemns you.

Rob

Was the Apostle James OC when he said: "But be DOERS of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, THE LAW OF LIBERTY, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, HE WILL BE BLESSED IN HIS DOING." Jam 1:22-25 ESV.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1 NKJ

"But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their minds so that they will understand them, and I will write them on their hearts so they will obey them. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Heb 8:10 NLT.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes, I may fall short as you like to rub it in,

And the reason I rub it in is so you will lose the self-righteous - holier than thou attitude. That's what got Job into hot water....

Holier than thou attitude? Have you heard me make my tithe & offerings go klinking into the treasury?

Where have I flaunted my good works? Or are you accusing of a holier than thou attitude .....

Because I teach what Jesus said? "Go and sin no more?"

Because I believe what He said? "If you love me you will keep my commandments?" Jn 14:15.

Because I espouse what the Apostle John said? "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning..." 1 Jn 3:6

Because I believe what Paul said? "That those who such things [sexual immorality, impurity, ...idolatry, etc. etc.] will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor 6:9,10.

Because I teach that in order to be saved, "You must be born again?"

Because I proclaim the truth that, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation," and not same ol' same ol'?

Because I urge you to, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU, both to will and to work for his good pleasure?"

Because I invite others to, "...leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to perfection?"

Because I believe that Jesus not only has the power to cleanse the sinner, but also has to power to enable him to walk in His steps?

Quote:

Quote:

but we are assured that, "when it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth to that end, God accepts it as man's best effort...."

Actually, that's Ellen White and not Bible. Biblically we are righteous by faith, period!

If one has the faith that obeys, yes, I agree 1 trillion%. If one has a necrotic faith, a faith that doesn't breathe, move, or walk, but wreaks with the stench of the fruit of disobedience instead, then no, I don't believe it one iota.

Gerry

[BobRyan]

What some forget is that IN Christ we ARE now made perfect. We stand before God perfect. We don't have to 'work' at it . We ARE perfect.

I am happy to say that I am 'perfect'. I am ready for the judgment. For I stand before God 'perfect' through Jesus.

I don't need to continue the striving. In Him ... I am perfect.

If our works are not a natural outflowing of our love ... then they are worthless.

Come Lord Jesus Come.

This looks more like a comment for threads on the subject of the IJ or DoT - Judgment etc.

The moment someone is saved they are born again - they are covered -- they are forgiven. If they died that moment and their name came up in the judgment - they would pass.

But that is not the question being asked in the SDA IJ topic about the end of time and the close of probation. For that discussion we are talking about the Rev 15 event where Christ's work in the Sanctuary ends prior to the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

Will the saints today walk that Romans 8 walk with the Holy Spirit to make it through that day and stand?

Or will they through failure to persevere - fail to attain it?

In Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Whatever happened to the "Is the Sabbath just for Jews" discussion - did everyone agree "no it is not limited to Jews" and then go on to other topics?

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Quote:

"Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained" NL 20

And that is Faith in what HE has already done. It is Done. It is finished. It is a done deal. Praise God.

Yes, the sacrifice-- the shedding of His blood, the giving of His life-- is done, never to be repeated. That is a done deal, for sure.

It's by truly putting our whole reliance and trust in Him that we receive the gift of God's grace and forgiveness. It is simply by extending the empty hand of faith.

And if we have true faith, our lives will tell it, won't they? People will see a radical change in our life, just like they saw in the lives of the fishermen and the tax collector after they'd been with Jesus.

Question:

Will there be people who were "justified" at one time but who will yet be among those who are ultimately lost?

If so, how do we account for this? What makes the difference?

[John317]

Whatever happened to the "Is the Sabbath just for Jews" discussion - did everyone agree "no it is not limited to Jews" and then go on to other topics?

in Christ,

Bob

I certainly agree that the Sabbath is for gentiles AND Jews-- guess that pretty much means for all mankind, just like Jesus said in Mark 2: 57, 58. Ok, Jesus is right! I agree with Him.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"By faith Abraham obeyed...." Heb 11:8 ESV.

"You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE along with his [Abraham's] works, and faith was completed by his works..." Jam 2:22 ESV

Gerry

I just love the way legalistic folks take things out of context. Just love it.....It's so natural to deceive in doing this....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What happened 2000 yrs ago is of no use if it does not work in a changed life today.

Tell that to the billions who have never heard the name of Christ.....

Do you believe there will be people lost because Christians made mistakes and didn't do their duty to take the gospel to them?

Is the gospel essential in order for people to be saved?

[John317]

... Lazy Adventists use her writing to escape wrestling with the Bible and learning what it has to say....It's always easy to say, "Thus saith Ellen White"! Sorry, I can't accept this type of idolatry.

I'll remember that next time you quote Ellen White to support one of your ideas.

All of Jack Sequeira's books are full of Ellen White quotes. The last book of his that I read has 30 quotes on the last two pages, and all the rest of the book had dozens more quotes by Ellen White.

Accepting her as a prophet of God is not idolatry any more than accepting any other true prophet of God. A prophet of God is a prophet of God, whether they are in the 20th century or in the first century, and accepting them as such is not idolatry.

The problem some people have with the Spirit of prophecy is the same problem they have with the Investigative Judgment-- and the same problem some have with the Bible: they don't want to accept those things because they would require changes in the life.

[John317]

Let me just add that we do have a part to play ... and that is to acknowledge our Lord that He is our Saviour and to repent as to the sinful state of our life.

True enough, but the Bible also teaches that we need to confess and repent of particular sins. I think it's a mistake if we simply make a general confession to God for being "sinners" or "sinful." That is fine in church or in family worship, but in our private devotions and prayers, it's essential that we make confession of what we have done or said or thought.