Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Robert]

Now, what kind of faith was Paul talking about?

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.

Or was he talking from both sides of his mouth?

Your problem, Gerry, is that you take a single verse lifted out of its context and make it say what it does not!

Look at what Paul is stating:

11 For there is no partiality with God. [how so?]12 For all who have sinned without the Law [i.e., the law is unknown to them] will also perish [die] without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law [i.e., under the law's jurisdiction] will be judged by the Law; [Judged in what way?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Is Paul teaching justification by law? No! What he is saying is that "under law" (and the believer has been delivered from under the law) it's not enough to agree with...or merely hear what the law says. Instead the law demands perfect obedience if it is to justify you.

Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself:

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law"

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated [cut off] from Christ; you have fallen away from grace"

[Robert]

Do you believe there will be people lost because Christians made mistakes and didn't do their duty to take the gospel to them?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

... Lazy Adventists use her writing to escape wrestling with the Bible and learning what it has to say....It's always easy to say, "Thus saith Ellen White"! Sorry, I can't accept this type of idolatry.

I'll remember that next time you quote Ellen White to support one of your ideas.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Now, what kind of faith was Paul talking about?

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.

Or was he talking from both sides of his mouth?

Your problem, Gerry, is that you take a single verse lifted out of its context and make it say what it does not!

Look at what Paul is stating:

11 For there is no partiality with God. [how so?]12 For all who have sinned without the Law [i.e., the law is unknown to them] will also perish [die] without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law [i.e., under the law's jurisdiction] will be judged by the Law; [Judged in what way?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Is Paul teaching justification by law? No! What he is saying is that "under law" (and the believer has been delivered from under the law) it's not enough to agree with...or merely hear what the law says. Instead the law demands perfect obedience if it is to justify you.

Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself:

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law"

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated [cut off] from Christ; you have fallen away from grace"

What kind of faith is Paul talking about that receives justification?

[color:red]"Now this I say and testify in the Lord that YOU MUST NO LONGER WALK AS THE GENTILES DO, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. BUT THAT IS NOT THE WAY YOU LEARNED CHRIST!- ASSUMING THT YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT HIM AND WERE TAUGHT IN HIM, AS THE TRUTH IS IN JESUS, TO PUT OFF YOUR OLD SELF, WHICH BELONGS TO YOUR FORMER MANNER OF LIFE AND IS CORRUPT THROUGH DECEITFUL DESIRES, AND TO BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MINDS, AND TO PUT ON THE NEW SELF, CREATED AFTER THE LIKENESS OF GOD IN TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS." Eph 4:17-24 ESV.

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. ON ACCOUNT OF THESE THE WRATH OF GOD IS COMING. In these you too ONCE walked, when you WERE living in them. But now you MUST put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have PUT OFF THE OLD SELF with its practices and HAVE PUT ON THE NEW SELF, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." Col 2:5-10 ESV

Therefore, "...It is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13.

That is why James says, "Buyt be DOERS of the word, and NOT HEARERS ONLY, deceiving yourselves." Ja 1:22

How did you learn Christ?

Gerry

[Gerr]

What some forget is that IN Christ we ARE now made perfect. We stand before God perfect. We don't have to 'work' at it . We ARE perfect.

I am happy to say that I am 'perfect'. I am ready for the judgment. For I stand before God 'perfect' through Jesus.

I don't need to continue the striving. In Him ... I am perfect.

"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For man, I tell , will seek to enter and will not be able." Lk 13:24 ESV.

"Strive to excel in building up the church." 1 Cor 14:12.

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of DISOBEDIENCE." Heb 4:11 ESV

Quote:

If our works are not a natural outflowing of our love ... then they are worthless.

AMEN. AMEN.

Quote:

Come Lord Jesus Come.

AMEN. AMEN. AMEN.

Gerry

[Robert]

Therefore, "...It is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13.

Okay then...you are teaching justification by law. It's just that simple. If you truly believe this Paul tells me you are outside christ....you have been cut off. You are fallen from grace and hence you stand under law.

Do you know what the law says to you Gerry? I can tell it won't be, "Well, Gerry, you really tried to obey me. In fact you obeyed most of my rules and so I'll give you credit."

No, the law will say, "You aren't good enough...you're still selfish...you still exhibit self-love and therefore you must die."

Try again!

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

What some forget is that IN Christ we ARE now made perfect. We stand before God perfect. We don't have to 'work' at it . We ARE perfect.

I am happy to say that I am 'perfect'. I am ready for the judgment. For I stand before God 'perfect' through Jesus.

I don't need to continue the striving. In Him ... I am perfect.

[color:blue]"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For man, I tell , will seek to enter and will not be able." Lk 13:24 ESV.

Redwood, Gerry doesn't make it easy for you, does he? He wants you to be miserable...he wants you to feel his "yoke". Basically, misery loves company and Gerry wants to feel important. So he holds up all the rules he keeps and since he's doing it, you better be also. He's a legalist of the finest kind. And then he misquotes scripture to bring you down...to get your eyes off of Christ and unto your works. Instead of the assurance of Christ's righteousness, he wants you too have assurance of heaven by your performance. What a terrible, terrible life.

Yes, Gerry, strive to enter through the narrow. This requires letting your pride go....Your denominational pride...your pride in your law keeping...your pride in your righteousness. Basically it ain't easy trading in your righteousness for the righteousness of Christ. Ask Job! Job learned better, you have not. Watch out!

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Therefore, "...It is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13.

Okay then...you are teaching justification by law. It's just that simple....

In Romans 2:13, Paul is not telling his readers that they ought to try to earn salvation by works of law. Paul is saying that it's not enough merely to hear what the law says. A person needs to do it, not just hear it. He is saying the same thing that James says in James 2: 18-26.

Having faith means you will not only hear what God says but will do what he says. It has nothing to do with earning justification or salvation. It has to do with real faith and real obedience.

The Jews thought they were special and would be saved merely because they had the law and had heard it. Paul is saying it is not enough merely to have it or hear it. It is not enough to merely hear the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy. That is nothing. We need to do it, not just know about it.

[Robert]

Having faith means you will not only hear what God says but will do what he says. It has nothing to do with earning justification or salvation.

Here's the context:

...all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Clearly this is talking about justification by law! You are just before God IF you are a doer of the law!

Notice the context just before Paul makes that statement: All who have sinned "under the law"!

To be under law means to be ruled by the law. It means the law comes to you and says, "Obey and live, disobey and die." Hence, if you sin (and all have sinned) the law will judge you harshly! You must keep the law in order for the law to justify you!

End the end it doesn't matter if you are under the law are without the law. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or a Gentile. Paul's conclusion:

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews] any better [than the Gentiles]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Therefore, "...It is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13.

Okay then...you are teaching justification by law. It's just that simple. If you truly believe this Paul tells me you are outside christ....you have been cut off. You are fallen from grace and hence you stand under law.

Do you know what the law says to you Gerry? I can tell it won't be, "Well, Gerry, you really tried to obey me. In fact you obeyed most of my rules and so I'll give you credit."

No, the law will say, "You aren't good enough...you're still selfish...you still exhibit self-love and therefore you must die."

Try again!

Rob

Paul: [color:red]"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin; He condemned sin in the flesh, THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." Rom 8:1-4 NKJ.

Who is not condemned? To whom is the righteous requirements of the law fulfilled? Is it to people who just say, "I believe, I believe?" NO!!! It is for those who no longer walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. When you walk with the Spirit, one of the fruit is love. When the believer walking in the Spirit loves, he fulfills the requirement of the law, Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14. Since we are still imprisoned in this body, our love might not "measure up" as you so ably point out, but GRACE says, that is enough! The requirement is met! But is this what is accepted for salvation? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Only the righteousness of Jesus is "good enough" to merit salvation.

There is a world of difference between someone who by words and deeds believe and obey God's will but fall short from the person who says he believes but does nothing to back up that belief. Grace meets the former while wrath is the lot of the latter.

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Having faith means you will not only hear what God says but will do what he says. It has nothing to do with earning justification or salvation.

Here's the context:

...all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Clearly this is talking about justification by law! You are just before God IF you are a doer of the law!

Notice the context just before Paul makes that statement: All who have sinned "under the law"!

To be under law means to be ruled by the law. It means the law comes to you and says, "Obey and live, disobey and die." Hence, if you sin (and all have sinned) the law will judge you harshly! You must keep the law in order for the law to justify you!

End the end it doesn't matter if you are under the law are without the law. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or a Gentile. Paul's conclusion:

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews] any better [than the Gentiles]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one"

This makes it plain:

Romans 2:1-16 (New Life Version)

All Men Are Sinners

1So you can say nothing because you are guilty when you say someone else is guilty. While you say someone is guilty, you are doing the same things he does. 2We know that God will say those who do such things are guilty. 3Do you think God will punish others for doing wrong and let you keep sinning? 4Do you forget about His loving-kindness to you? Do you forget how long He is waiting for you? You know that God is kind. He is trying to get you to be sorry for your sins and turn from them. 5Because you are not sorry for your sins and will not turn from them, you will be punished even more on the day of God's anger. God will be right in saying you are guilty. 6He will give to every man what he should get for the things he has done. 7Those who keep on doing good and are looking for His greatness and honor will receive life that lasts forever. 8Those who love only themselves and do not obey the truth, but do what is wrong, will be punished by God. His anger will be on them. 9Every Jew and every person who is not a Jew who sins will suffer and have great sorrow. 10But God will give His greatness and honor and peace to all those who obey the truth. Both Jews and those who are not Jews will receive this. 11God does not show favor to one man more than to another.

God Does What Is Right To All Men

12Those who have sinned without having the Law will be lost without the Law being used. Those who have the Law and have sinned will be judged by the Law. 13Just to hear the Law does not make a man right with God. The man right with God is the one who obeys the Law. 14The people who are not Jews do not have the Law. When they do what the Law tells them to do, even if they do not have the Law, it shows they know what they should do. 15They show that what the Law wants them to do is written in their hearts. Their own hearts tell them if they are guilty. 16There will be a day when God will judge because He knows the secret thoughts of men. He will do this through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News I preach.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For man' date=' I tell , will seek to enter and will not be able." Lk 13:24 ESV.

Redwood, Gerry doesn't make it easy for you, does he? He wants you to be miserable...he wants you to feel his "yoke". Basically, misery loves company and Gerry wants to feel important. So he holds up all the rules he keeps and since he's doing it, you better be also. He's a legalist of the finest kind. And then he misquotes scripture to bring you down...to get your eyes off of Christ and unto your works. Instead of the assurance of Christ's righteousness, he wants you too have assurance of heaven by your performance. What a terrible, terrible life.[/quote'][color:blue]

Were those my words? My problem with the faith you and Red espouse is that it is the do-nothing, dead, faith that James is talking about. And you keep twisting my words. You keep inventing a strawman of self-righteousness and holier-than-thou attitude because I espouse a faith that works! Let me set the record straight for the umpteenth time. THE ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT MERITS HEAVEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST THAT I ACCEPT BY FAITH. Let me categorically state also that this righteousness from God is not bestowed to those who merely hear and do not obey, who do not walk after the Spirit but continue to walk after the flesh.

The righteousness from God is NOT a license to disobedience.

Quote:

Yes, Gerry, strive to enter through the narrow. This requires letting your pride go....Your denominational pride...your pride in your law keeping...your pride in your righteousness. Basically it ain't easy trading in your righteousness for the righteousness of Christ. Ask Job! Job learned better, you have not. Watch out!

Rob

You sure are doing a very good job of playing "accuser of the brethren". I don't even need the devil to do it. Anyway, what do you care if I am really guilty of everything that you accuse me of since per your & Red's theology, I am assured of salvation anyway? How come Red can say, "I live in sin. I sin willfully till I die," and still can thank Jesus that he is saved while you castigate me for pride and self-righteousness? How come you can tell others that it is their duty to sell everything they have but you yourself are not willing to give even 10%, even disregard ALL the commandments of God, yet still can claim salvation? And tell me "watch out" if I were guilty of self-righteousness? Since per your theology I am not under law and don't have to keep the law, how can the law condemn me anyway? I am still safe, right? So what do you care?

Gerry

[Robert]

This makes it plain:

Romans 2:1-16 (New Life Version)

Sorry, I can't accept paraphrased versions....

Rob

[Robert]

Anyway, what do you care if I am really guilty of everything that you accuse me of since per your & Red's theology, I am assured of salvation anyway?

No, self-righteousness is the one sin that will cause you to be lost.

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Anyway, what do you care if I am really guilty of everything that you accuse me of since per your & Red's theology, I am assured of salvation anyway?

No, self-righteousness is the one sin that will cause you to be lost.

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

If, per your theology, obedience is NOT required, where is the law that condemns me for self-righteousness? Where?

Gerry

[Robert]

If, per your theology, obedience is NOT required, where is the law that condemns me for self-righteousness? Where?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The law doesn't accept your partial obedience, Gerry, it demands 100% obedience. If you break one, you've broken the whole law.

Here's what saves:

Roamsn 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If, per your theology, obedience is NOT required, where is the law that condemns me for self-righteousness? Where?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The law doesn't accept your partial obedience, Gerry, it demands 100% obedience. If you break one, you've broken the whole law.

Apart from the law sin lies dead." Rom 7:8

So, if per your teaching I have been delivered from obedience to the law, there is nothing to condemn my selfishness or self-righteousness! None! Zip! Nada! I can go to heaven just as well with my self-righteousness as you can with your lawlessness!!! If not, wouldn't God then be partial? "By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar..."

When it comes to salvation, yes, you are right, the law does not give credit for partial obedience. That's why ONLY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST CAN SAVE US!!!

But to whom is the fullness of Christ's righteousness credited to? The faith that hears the Word in one ear and goes out the other ear? Or the one who hears with both ears, believes with mind, heart, and soul, and then moves his hands, feet, eyes, ears, his whole being to act on that belief? The Scripture seems very clear to me that:

[color:red]There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free fom the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1-4 NKJ

That is what Paul meant by a doing faith that is justified, Rom 2:13.

Notice that sinners are delivered from the condemnation/curse of the law because of disobedience, not delivered from the duty to obey it. "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, FOR IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7 ESV. "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Ibid, 8:13 ESV.

Grace recognizes that while the Spirit of God dwells in us, we are still imprisoned in an imperfect mortal body. So when the believer gives WHOLE-HEARTED obedience, it may fall short of what it could have been with a pre-fall Adamic body, but GRACE accepts it as complete obedience.

For God to present sinners who continue to live in sin and lawlessness as, "holy and blameless and above reproach" Col 1:22, to the on-looking universe, would lose all credibility and become the subject of ridicule.

Quote:

Here's what saves:

Roamsn 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Please notice that it is NOT the law that dies and is done away with. It is the sinner who dies to sin, i.e. stops living a life of disobedience to the law!

[color:red]What shall we say they? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! HOW CAN WE WHO DIED TO SIN STILL LIVE IN IT?....We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, WE TOO MIGHT WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. Rom 6:1-4 ESV.

We know that our old self was crucified with him inorder that the body of sin might be brought to NOTHING, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin.....So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Ibid 6:6ff

Gerry

[Robert]

So, if per your teaching I have been delivered from obedience to the law, there is nothing to condemn my selfishness or self-righteousness!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So, if per your teaching I have been delivered from obedience to the law, there is nothing to condemn my selfishness or self-righteousness!

Did you accept your deliverance from the law? Apparently not, if you had you wouldn't be a legalist. Since you desire to be "under the law" the law is your master and in the end it will condemn you!

Quote:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That last part was added in the KJV. There is no condemnation, period to those who have accepted their position in Christ. IF you haven't you're under law.

Quote:

Please notice that it is NOT the law that dies and is done away with. It is the sinner who dies to sin, i.e. stops living a life of disobedience to the law!

Gerry, it doesn't say this....Yes, the law didn't die. You died, where? "in Christ"! There's nothing in Romans 7:4,6 that says that you, Gerry, have personally died to sin. Paul is talking about your life from Adam that was "in Christ" 2000 years ago. That's what ultimately saves and not this nonsensical legalism you keep preaching.

What does Paul mean when he says: [color:red]"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM IN ORDER THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE BROUGHT TO NOTHING, SO THAT WE WOULD NO LONGER BE ENSLAVED TO SIN. For one who has died has been set free from sin. ....So you also MUST consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions." Rom 6:5-12 ESV.

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:13 ESV.

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Gal 2:20,21 ESV.

Christ did not just die on the cross for us. We are to be crucified with Him. He did not die so that the sinner can keep on living a life of sin!!! Obviously, Paul is not talking about a literal death. He is talking about a spiritual death to the "old self". It means dying to sin. It is putting to death the deeds of the flesh. That means - stop sinning. Stop living a life of disobedience! And the old self cannot be dead if it is doing the same old things!!!

Here is what EGW has to say about the doctrine you are teaching which is really nothing new.

"The doctrine is now largely taught that the gospel of Christ has made the law of God of no effect, that by "believing" we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned." "...the sin of the Nicolaitains, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness..." 7BC 956.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So, if per your teaching I have been delivered from obedience to the law, there is nothing to condemn my selfishness or self-righteousness!

Did you accept your deliverance from the law? Apparently not, if you had you wouldn't be a legalist. Since you desire to be "under the law" the law is your master and in the end it will condemn you!

Delivered from the curse and condemnation of the law? OF COURSE!!! THAT'S WHAT JESUS DID FOR ME!!!

Delivered from obedience? NOT!!!

[color:red]"We have received grace ....to bring about the obedience of faith FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME AMONG ALL THE NATIONS, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ." Rom 1:5,6 ESV.

We bring dishonor to God when we proclaim ourselves to be Christians but then live like an unbeliever.

BTW, you still haven't answered my question - if I, as a believer, have been delivered from obedience to the law, where is the law that will keep me out of heaven because of my selfishness and self-righteousnes? Where is His justice if keeps me out while He lets you in with your lawlessness?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Did you accept your deliverance from the law? Apparently not, if you had you wouldn't be a legalist. Since you desire to be "under the law" the law is your master and in the end it will condemn you!

Delivered from the curse and condemnation of the law? OF COURSE!!! THAT'S WHAT JESUS DID FOR ME!!!

Delivered from obedience? NOT!!! [/quote']

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry...(I'm shaking my head at this ignorance). You can't be delivered just from the condemnation of the law without being delivered from its demands of obedience also.

Again, as EGW states:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, (#1) “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, (#2) “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

Note the two requirements "under law":

1] “This do, and thou shalt live" or "obey and live"!

2] "Cursed is every one" that doesn't obey everything written in the book of the law.

Your theology just eliminates # 2, but you can't do that! Why? Because the law has two demands, not one. You can only do away with the curse if you fully comply with # 1. Otherwise you have a vicious circle.

Unless you are living Christ's life of perfection you are not obeying and hence you stand under the curse.

Quote:

if I, as a believer, have been delivered from obedience to the law, where is the law that will keep me out of heaven because of....self-righteousnes?

Hey, Gerry...I did answer! A self-righteous person thinks he is measuring up. Hence, by definition, he is under law. To be under law means death! Read Gal 3:10 again and again and again!

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Did you accept your deliverance from the law? Apparently not, if you had you wouldn't be a legalist. Since you desire to be "under the law" the law is your master and in the end it will condemn you!

Quote:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That last part was added in the KJV. There is no condemnation, period to those who have accepted their position in Christ. IF you haven't you're under law.

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Please notice that it is NOT the law that dies and is done away with. It is the sinner who dies to sin, i.e. stops living a life of disobedience to the law!

Gerry, it doesn't say this....Yes, the law didn't die. You died, where? "in Christ"! There's nothing in Romans 7:4,6 that says that you, Gerry, have personally died to sin. Paul is talking about your life from Adam that was "in Christ" 2000 years ago. That's what ultimately saves and not this nonsensical legalism you keep preaching.

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What does Paul mean when he says: Rom 6:5-12 ESV.

Rom 8:13 ESV.

Gal 2:20,21 ESV.

Gerry, take time to read what I say or you come off, well, uninformed.

Here's what I said: "There's nothing in Romans 7:4,6..."

What do you do? Jump to other verses, but that's not the subject or the context.

Rob

[BobRyan]

For those who object to the Law of God being "established by our faith" Rom 3:31 -- are you also thinking that Paul is simply missing the point in his statements below?

What about Christ's point in Matt 7 or John 14:15? Is He too in error?

The context of Romans 2 is found in vs 4 "the goodness of God leads you to repentance".

In Romans 2:10-13 Paul explicitly reveals that this future justification is "Gospel justification" for he shows that it is presented "on the day when accoring to my Gospel God will judge".

In Romans 2:5-10 Paul shows that there are BOTH succeeding cases and failing case.

In Matt 7 Christ argues the same point as Paul does "not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul is not arguing "justification exists apart from the Gospel".

It is Gospel justification that he is speaking about because it is justification that results from a Gospel judgment that is future.

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues "neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

This is why Paul can make the argument in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!"

Bob

You gotta just love that 1Cor 7:19 quote above.

in christ,

Bob

[Robert]

For those who object to the Law of God being "established by our faith" Rom 3:31

Now I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

1. It does not agree with the context.

2. It does not agree historically.

3. It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

Now I do not mean by that it is impossible for you and me, by the grace of God, to keep the law. I am not discussing that. We will come to that when we come to the sections on sanctification and the sections on Christian living. What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.

2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.

In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?

“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”

And God will say, “Who told you that?”

“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”

And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”

The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law says, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”

And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel. [JS]

[John317]

Robert, does the following express your thinking?---

What faith does is make it not matter if the commandments can be changed or not. (I ask this because it's what you said today on another thread.)

It doesn't matter if we keep Sunday or Sabbath. (You also said this on another thread.)

Do you really believe these things? Is this the influence of Jack Sequeira? I'm amazed at what you are saying and am positive Jack would not approve of such ideas.