Moderators John317 Posted October 3, 2008 Moderators Posted October 3, 2008 JACK SEQUEIRA--- Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?] If I say that faith in Christ releases me from obedience to God's law, is that not making void the law? If I say that faith means it is not important whether or not the commandments of God can be changed, how is that upholding or establishing law? I want to know if this is what your gospel teaches or if you believe it's what Jack's gospel means. If it is, such an idea is teaching anarchy and amorality. Faith in Christ means we will want to obey, not disobey, God's will. IT IS RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT DISOBEDIENCE, WHICH COMES THROUGH CHRIST AND THROUGH GOD'S GRACE. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 If I say that faith in Christ releases me from obedience to God's law, is that not making void the law? You can't be delivered just from the condemnation of the law without being delivered from its demands of obedience also. Again, as EGW states: Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, (#1) “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, (#2) “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Note the two requirements "under law": 1] “This do, and thou shalt live" or "obey and live"! 2] "Cursed is every one" that doesn't obey everything written in the book of the law. Your theology just eliminates # 2, but you can't do that! Why? Because the law has two demands, not one. You can only do away with the curse if you fully comply with # 1. Otherwise you have a vicious circle. Unless you are living Christ's life of perfection you are not obeying and hence you stand under the curse. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 3, 2008 Moderators Posted October 3, 2008 Robert, does the following express your thinking?--- What faith does is make it not matter if the commandments can be changed or not. (I ask this because it's what you said today on another thread.) It doesn't matter if we keep Sunday or Sabbath. (You also said this on another thread.) Do you really believe these things? Is this the influence of Jack Sequeira? I'm amazed at what you are saying and am positive Jack would not approve of such ideas. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood What some forget is that IN Christ we ARE now made perfect. We stand before God perfect. We don't have to 'work' at it . We ARE perfect. I am happy to say that I am 'perfect'. I am ready for the judgment. For I stand before God 'perfect' through Jesus. I don't need to continue the striving. In Him ... I am perfect. "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For man, I tell , will seek to enter and will not be able." Lk 13:24 ESV. "Strive to excel in building up the church." 1 Cor 14:12. "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of DISOBEDIENCE." Heb 4:11 ESV Quote: If our works are not a natural outflowing of our love ... then they are worthless. AMEN. AMEN. Quote: Come Lord Jesus Come. AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. Gerry Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
MarkM Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Twenty-four pages on a Seventh-day Adventist board on the question: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews? Nine pages when I first checked on the topic of whether homosexual behavior is condemned by the Bible. Sixty pages on whether God's law can be changed. Several threads trying to justify evolution. Does anyone find this edifying? Is anyone profiting? What is the value of these debates? Has anyone's opinion changed? Seventh-day Adventists know what they believe about all of the above because they stand on the clear teaching of the Word of God. There are obviously many who cling to the SDA title while denying its substance. I find that strange. And my final question: Why do people who are not Seventh-day Adventists (at heart) spend so much energy attacking SDA beliefs? Are there not multitudes of unbelievers to win to your gospel? I do not think I will be on this board for long. I have seen enough of how some people delight in spitting on committed SDAs here - contrary to the statement of purpose from Romans 14:1 - and their profession of love. I think I can find better ways to spend my time and $3.50 per month. Quote
Robert Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Why do people who are not Seventh-day Adventists (at heart) spend so much energy attacking SDA beliefs? The same reason Paul spent so much energy attacking his fellow Jews. They were caught up into legalism. A legalist is a very unhappy person. He has no hope...no assurance...it's work, work, work. Rob Quote
Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 But once a legalist is converted and can experience the free love of God ... then there is rejoicing in Heaven. Some here have been down that road and can appreciate those that preach the Gospel to those who are dying due to a works oriented belief. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
MarkM Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Originally Posted By: MarkM Why do people who are not Seventh-day Adventists (at heart) spend so much energy attacking SDA beliefs? The same reason Paul spent so much energy attacking his fellow Jews. They were caught up into legalism. A legalist is a very unhappy person. He has no hope...no assurance...it's work, work, work. Rob Then I am very glad to know that I am not a legalist. Jesus has given me much assurance and much happiness. I believe Paul minimized his attacks on the unbelieving Jews to the defense of the believers. He was known as the apostle to the Gentiles and focused his energies on bringing a knowledge of Jesus to the heathen. Quote
Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Quote: Seventh-day Adventists know what they believe about all of the above because they stand on the clear teaching of the Word of God. What is 'clear' to one is not 'clear' to another. Olger might not have told you this but I will. There are even 'legalists' who think that they have the 'clear' teachings of scripture. But there is no light in them. It is people who so arrogantly state that it is 'only their way' that scare me. We will have many lessons to learn and many lessons to unlearn as our prophet so clearly states. There will be no stopping place. No one has all of the Bible figured out. So, a little less Bible thumping and a little more love for those who see things differently would be great. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
MarkM Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Quote: Seventh-day Adventists know what they believe about all of the above because they stand on the clear teaching of the Word of God. What is 'clear' to one is not 'clear' to another. Olger might not have told you this but I will. There are even 'legalists' who think that they have the 'clear' teachings of scripture. But there is no light in them. I stand by my statement. Can I add, "...as we unitedly understand it"? Seventh-day Adventists know what we believe. It is what makes us Seventh-day Adventists. People who believe something else are something else and are free to do so. Gerry's dad was one of the most godly men I have ever met. He resisted the Sabbath to his grave. I do not understand that, but I am confident (as I am sure Gerry is) that he died in Christ. I was using Bob's criteria for recognizing legalists - they are not happy and have no assurance. I am not sure that is a good definition, but I know I am very happy in Jesus and have more genuine assurance of salvation than most born again evangelicals that I know. It is people who so arrogantly state that it is 'only their way' that scare me. We will have many lessons to learn and many lessons to unlearn as our prophet so clearly states. There will be no stopping place. No one has all of the Bible figured out. So, a little less Bible thumping and a little more love for those who see things differently would be great. A little less love thumping and a little more actual love for those who see things differently would be great. I have seen your treatment of John and Gerry. I also remember your warm welcome to this board before you knew anything about me. Quote
Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Quote: I also remember your warm welcome to this board before you knew anything about me. Mark. If there is anything I have done that has offended you ... please tell me so that I can apologize. Below was my first post to welcome you and I only intended it to be good fun. I am sorry if you felt offended. For certain I did not intend any offense. Quote: Welcome Mark. All good Republicans are welcome here. (Even those who associate with the Wagoners) But we will keep a close eye on you !!! Have fun ... look forward to seeing more of your posts. It was all in good fun to make you feel at home ... so I thought. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Whatever Mark. Keep in mind that you are a child of God. Therefore ... You is Cool. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Quote: I was using Bob's criteria for recognizing legalists - they are not happy and have no assurance. I don't know of any Bob's criteria here. But if you meant Robert ... I would hope that you listen closely to him. He has a lot of wisdom. We have much we can learn from him. As stated in this thread ... I may not always agree with him ... but he is very wise. And I listen closely. He is very knowledgeable. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
BobRyan Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 My criteria for legalism is usually something of the form ---- Legalism is any act that you take (including confessing Christ, getting baptized, going to church, saying a special set of words) that you consider to be a "replacement" or "substitute" for a living walk with Christ -- such that even though you don't have much time for God yet you still feel you are "ok with God" because "at one time I .... (put whatever you want in this space)". in Christ, bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators Gerr Posted October 4, 2008 Moderators Posted October 4, 2008 Quote: I was using Bob's criteria for recognizing legalists - they are not happy and have no assurance. I don't know of any Bob's criteria here. But if you meant Robert ... I would hope that you listen closely to him. He has a lot of wisdom. We have much we can learn from him. As stated in this thread ... I may not always agree with him ... but he is very wise. And I listen closely. He is very knowledgeable. I have listened to Rob far longer than you have been in this forum. The wisdom he is trying to share? You don't have to obey God's commandments anymore. As long as you believe, you have the assurance of eternal life! The wisdom he is offering goes back to the garden of Eden when a certain wise serpent said, "You shall not surely die," for disobeying God. Beware. Gerry Quote
Robert Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 You don't have to obey God's commandments anymore. The underlined shows Gerry's problem. He looks at the law as a set of rules to be kept - Do this, don't do that....And he finds himself quite happy with his attainments (as did Saul the Pharisee). He continues to fails to see the marked difference between himself and Christ. When I point out that he is failing to fully measure up does he become humble? No, he gets all self-righteous. He hates admitting he is not measuring up so he goes back to clubbing you with more law. Why? Misery loves company and to folks like Gerry (although he won't admit it) the law has become a yoke of bondage and so he wants you to share his pain. Beware of such men, Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 4, 2008 Moderators Posted October 4, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: I was using Bob's criteria for recognizing legalists - they are not happy and have no assurance. I don't know of any Bob's criteria here. But if you meant Robert ... I would hope that you listen closely to him. He has a lot of wisdom. We have much we can learn from him. As stated in this thread ... I may not always agree with him ... but he is very wise. And I listen closely. He is very knowledgeable. I have listened to Rob far longer than you have been in this forum. The wisdom he is trying to share? You don't have to obey God's commandments anymore. As long as you believe, you have the assurance of eternal life! The wisdom he is offering goes back to the garden of Eden when a certain wise serpent said, "You shall not surely die," for disobeying God. Beware. Gerry So true. Robert teaches that it doesn't matter if the commandments of God can be changed or not. He also says that it does not matter if anyone keeps the Sabbath or Sunday. I completely agree with you on the source of that teaching. I want nothing to do that that kind of so-called "wisdom." I would like to know if Robert gets that wisdom from Jack Sequeira and if Jack would agree with him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
MarkM Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Two corrections. I was referring to Robert rather than Bob. It was your response to my second post about our bluegrass band that I was thinking of. You professed curiosity about "a distinctive Adventist testimony." I offered Bible studies (an offer that is still on the table). I knew where you were coming from. I had already read your defense of homosexuality. You don't like Adventists. That's OK. But you like to hang out with them and insult them. That's strange. Then you justify it all in the name of love. That's just wrong. I have been exposed to plenty of Robert's wisdom. It is available from innumerable anti-Adventist sources. Actually I am glad he spends so much time here. It isolates the confusion. Perhaps, John did something really mean to you both somewhere sometime and you are finding it hard to forgive and accept him as a sincere brother in Christ. I have read through a few (not nearly all) threads and fail to find any evidence that he is the closed minded Pharisee you make him out to be. Instead I find the two of you judging him and attacking him personally. An almost unrelated question that I have wondered about for some time. Do Baptist and Catholic and Muslim forums have people who spend this much time insulting their faiths? Quote
jasd Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 >>Twenty-four pages on a Seventh-day Adventist board on the question: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews? Nine pages when I first checked on the topic of whether homosexual behavior is condemned by the Bible. Sixty pages on whether God's law can be changed.<< Yeah, a bit much, yes? Then again, I’ve been informed that the light of SDAdventism published over 30,000,000 words! It all goes to perspectives, yes? Anyway, I seldom engage in the overlong threads – as it takes so much effort on my part to formulate thoughts of any significance; therefor, I tend to establish threads of my own, so to speak. You might consider doing likewise. >>Several threads trying to justify evolution.<< Don’t take offense, but the above reflects the sort of narrow outlook that I perceive to be endemic to SDAdventism. Have you noticed that the most prolific posts are from those defending Biblical Creationism? Besides, should one take note: we are in the nascence of man evolving into another creature entirely – both by biological and mechanistic means – where it not for the fact that we might first self-implode. The question obtaining, has it happened elswhere? >>Does anyone find this edifying? Is anyone profiting? What is the value of these debates? Has anyone's opinion changed?<< Absolutely! Absolutely! Absolutely! Absolutely! Yes, me. Yes, me. By measurement, enormous. Yes, mine. Is that too idiocentric? >>Seventh-day Adventists know what they believe about all of the above because they stand on the clear teaching of the Word of God.<< Were it so clear Gd would not have inspired this text in Holy Writ: Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. In other words, you (universal use), being priest and king – are adjured to “search out” – that you may give an accounting of your beliefs. >>There are obviously many who cling to the SDA title while denying its substance. I find that strange.<< As strange as the many who “cling” to the “title” – Xtian? yet, denying its working... >>And my final question: Why do people who are not Seventh-day Adventists (at heart) spend so much energy attacking SDA beliefs?<< Do we all not expend most of our energies on those closest – either by proximity or by heart-tugs? >>Are there not multitudes of unbelievers to win to your gospel?<< “Winning” is the purview of Gd. >>I do not think I will be on this board for long. I have seen enough of how some people delight in spitting on committed SDAs here<< “Spitting?” c’mon, MarkM, methinks, thou dost protest too much, yes? Stick around. It may be that you are here for such an hour as this. >>...contrary to the statement of purpose from Romans 14:1 - and their profession of love.<< “Doubtful disputations”. Kinda like “vain babblings”, yes? One turns upon “doubtful” and the other turns upon “vain”... both, verily, subjective. >>I think I can find better ways to spend my time and $3.50 per month.<< Which reminds me – I have arrears to catch-up... A loaf of denatured bread costs $3.50 today. How much might just one expository revelation upon just one matter in Writ be valued? Stick around – and certainly, you will, as I, learn things you’ve never been aware of before - or seen in a better light. Otherwise, you’ll simply leave in seeming petulance Quote
Robert Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Robert teaches that it doesn't matter if the commandments of God can be changed or not. He also says that it does not matter if anyone keeps the Sabbath or Sunday. You guys hold John up to be this righteous saint, but from my perspective I see him as liar. He continually puts words in my mouth that I do not say. He is narrow-minded and rigid. He is here not so much to learn truth, but push his version of Historic Adventism. I see him as a modern day Judaizer. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You don't have to obey God's commandments anymore. The underlined shows Gerry's problem. He looks at the law as a set of rules to be kept - Do this, don't do that....And he finds himself quite happy with his attainments (as did Saul the Pharisee). He continues to fails to see the marked difference between himself and Christ. When I point out that he is failing to fully measure up does he become humble? No, he gets all self-righteous. He hates admitting he is not measuring up so he goes back to clubbing you with more law. Why? Misery loves company and to folks like Gerry (although he won't admit it) the law has become a yoke of bondage and so he wants you to share his pain. Beware of such men, Rob Misery? Yoke of bondage? [color:red]"Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 ESV. "And I will walk at liberty, for I seek your precepts." Ps 119:45 NKJ. I may not "measure up" in your eyes, but the promise to me is: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1-4 ESV. I may not measure up, true, but the promise is that when I walk according to the Spirit by faith and not according to the flesh, the full righteousness Christ is reckoned to me. Righteousness accounted to those who say they "believe" while living in disobedience? NOT!!!!!!!!!!! Gerry Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Robert teaches that it doesn't matter if the commandments of God can be changed or not. He also says that it does not matter if anyone keeps the Sabbath or Sunday. You guys hold John up to be this righteous saint, but from my perspective I see him as liar. He continually puts words in my mouth that I do not say. He is narrow-minded and rigid. He is here not so much to learn truth, but push his version of Historic Adventism. I see him as a modern day Judaizer. Rob 1) See post #190327 on this thread, 10/3/08:-- When you were asked if it doesn't matter if we keep the Sabbath or not, you replied: "No, doesn't matter." 2) See post 190273 on 1/03/08 on the thread, "Can God's Commandments Be Changed?"--- My question was: Do you believe that the commandments of God-- i.e., the Ten Commandments-- can be changed? Robert's answer was: Doesn't matter...we are not "under the law"! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert You guys hold John up to be this righteous saint' date=' but from my perspective I see him as liar. He continually puts words in my mouth that I do not say. He is narrow-minded and rigid. He is here not so much to learn truth, but push his version of Historic Adventism. I see him as a modern day Judaizer. Rob 1) See post #190327 on this thread, 10/3/08:-- When you were asked if it doesn't matter if we keep the Sabbath or not, you replied: "No, doesn't matter." [/quote'] Not as you present it.... Quote: 2) See post 190273 on 1/03/08 on the thread, "Can God's Commandments Be Changed?"--- My question was: Do you believe that the commandments of God-- i.e., the Ten Commandments-- can be changed? Robert's answer was: Doesn't matter...we are not "under the law"! Again, this was in reference to your version of the Sabbath and you know that.... Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 1) See post #190327 on this thread, 10/3/08:-- When you were asked if it doesn't matter if we keep the Sabbath or not, you replied: "No, doesn't matter." [/quote'] Not as you present it.... Quote: 2) See post 190273 on 1/03/08 on the thread, "Can God's Commandments Be Changed?"--- My question was: Do you believe that the commandments of God-- i.e., the Ten Commandments-- can be changed? Robert's answer was: Doesn't matter...we are not "under the law"! Quote: Again, this was in reference to your version of the Sabbath and you know that.... Rob Please clarify for the board: 1) Can the commandments of God be changed? 2) Does it matter if anyone keeps, or obeys, the Sabbath? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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