Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Reddogs]

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There is NOTHING in Scripture that I know of that gives me assurance that I can keep on living a life of sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation. If you know of one, please, show it.

Try John 3:16 .

We all will sin until the day we die. That is clear. We WILL continue to live a life of sin. We will also have victories. The power is there. There is NO excuse to sin as Ellen White puts it. But we are sinners. And Jesus died for sinners. He did not die for those who have achieved a life without sin. He died for those who 'believe' in Him.

So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation".

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

That is not correct, as Christ showed us in His example, and what of Enoch and Elijah, were they sinning till they were taken up to heaven, I seriously doubt that.

[Gerr]

Quote:

There is NOTHING in Scripture that I know of that gives me assurance that I can keep on living a life of sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation. If you know of one, please, show it.

Try John 3:16 .

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." ESV.

I find NOTHING in this statement that even REMOTELY gives me the idea that I can keep on flouting God's will and still be saved.

Quote:

We all will sin until the day we die. That is clear. We WILL continue to live a life of sin.

Please, show me a Bible passage to back this notion up. On the contrary, here is what the Book says:

"No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1 Jn 3:6 Amp.

"Those who do [present tense] such things (sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. etc.) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21.

We will also have victories. The power is there. There is NO excuse to sin as Ellen White puts it. But we are sinners. And Jesus died for sinners. He did not die for those who have achieved a life without sin. He died for those who 'believe' in Him.[color:blue]

He died to set sinners free from the slavery of sin, not to keep them in slavery to sin.

So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation".

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you. [color:blue]

You cannot untie salvation from works. Works are the inevitable RESULT of having been saved. Somehow you and Robert keep putting the cart before the horse!

Gerry

[Woody]

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Somehow you and Robert keep putting the cart before the horse!

Please don't misquote me. You and John seem to be good at that. It would seem you neglected to point out that I did say there would be works. See below:

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Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

I assume that you neglected to read the last paragraph of the post that you quoted. For all the time I have been on CA ... I have said the same thing and yet you and John continue to misrepresent me. Yes, we agree that there will be works. How much more clear can I make myself for you guys?

You accuse Robert and I of saying there will not be works ... this is just a twisting and misrepresentation. That is it.

No matter how many times and how many ways ... you guys continue this misrepresentation. It does get old.

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Works are the inevitable RESULT of having been saved.

Yes. I keep saying that. But we are not saved by them. They are the result.

[Robert]

"Those who do [present tense] such things (sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. etc.) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21.

A better version says, "Those who practice such things". Here's the list:

1] sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; (sexual sins)

2] idolatry

3] witchcraft

4] hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy;

5] drunkenness, orgies, and the like

Yes, if I as a mature believer, condone and practice these sins something is wrong with my faith-relationship. It's not that it's impossible for me to do these things (because of the sin-nature), but it will be very hard for me to condone these sins as a legitimate lifestyle. If I do then my faith is a sham, but I'll let God judge the heart because I cannot.

So 1 John 1:9 defines a practiced sin as one that I am unwilling to repent of before God.

[Woody]

Well ... the list of OT Bible greats who had multiple wives ... and how committed sexual sins ... is pretty long. They continued these for most of their lives and had no intentions to stop. Where does that put them?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Somehow you and Robert keep putting the cart before the horse!

Please don't misquote me. You and John seem to be good at that. It would seem you neglected to point out that I did say there would be works. See below:

Quote:

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

I assume that you neglected to read the last paragraph of the post that you quoted. For all the time I have been on CA ... I have said the same thing and yet you and John continue to misrepresent me. Yes, we agree that there will be works. How much more clear can I make myself for you guys?

You accuse Robert and I of saying there will not be works ... this is just a twisting and misrepresentation. That is it.

No matter how many times and how many ways ... you guys continue this misrepresentation. It does get old.

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Works are the inevitable RESULT of having been saved.

Yes. I keep saying that. But we are not saved by them. They are the result.

Red, please, spare me this playing the victim of misrepresentation mentality! How can I misquote you when I quote you word for word? You plainly say, without any equivocation, that believers will keep on sinning, contrary to the plain words of the Apostle John. And our Lord Himself commanded, "Go and sin no more."

Yes, I read your last paragraph, "Works are just fine," which tells me that it is something optional! That if you did not have it, you will be saved anyway! That is tantamount to saying you don't need to obey. Yeah, Robert acknowledges a little growth, but obedience? No! That's anathema!

Gerry

[Gerr]

So, when a sinner has repented of a "practiced sin," what then does he do?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, I read your last paragraph, "Works are just fine," which tells me that it is something optional! That if you did not have it, you will be saved anyway! That is tantamount to saying you don't need to obey.

"Optional"? How did you come up with that? Again ... misrepresentation. Twisting of my words. As I recall the word that was clearly used .... it was the word RESULT. Works are the result of being saved. Why is this so hard for you to understand. They are not optional but they are the result. But to say they are 'required' is not accurate either. Faith is required. Works are the 'result'.

I guess this is why it is so difficult to communicate with you and John. Your focus is totally on works and you make THEM your God. Our focus needs to be on Jesus ... then the works will be the "RESULT". But keep your eyes on Jesus Gerry. Not on your feeble works.

[Woody]

So, when a sinner has repented of a "practiced sin," what then does he do?

Gerry

He repents again after he falls the 77th time. OR he praises God for victory for a certain time period. But either way ... he is God's. He is saved. But there will be victories and there will be defeats. But he is God's through faith and not works.

[Reddogs]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So, when a sinner has repented of a "practiced sin," what then does he do?

Gerry

He repents again after he falls the 77th time. OR he praises God for victory for a certain time period. But either way ... he is God's. He is saved. But there will be victories and there will be defeats. But he is God's through faith and not works.

Yes, just like Abraham, through faith...

Romans 4:13

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gerr]

You keep accusing me of misrepresentation, so here are your exact words:

Quote:

So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation".

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

If you still have the assurance of salvation "even though we keep living a life of sin...", doesn't that make obedience optional?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

He repents again after he falls the 77th time. OR he praises God for victory for a certain time period. But either way ... he is God's. He is saved. But there will be victories and there will be defeats. But he is God's through faith and not works. [/quote']

Yes, just like Abraham, through faith...

Romans 4:13

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Amen!!!

This is what his faith led him to do: "By faith Abraham obeyed...." Heb 11:8.

"Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:5 ESV.

NOT: "By faith Abraham kept on living a life of sin."

Gerry

[Woody]

You keep accusing me of misrepresentation, so here are your exact words:

Quote:

So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation".

Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you.

If you still have the assurance of salvation "even though we keep living a life of sin...", doesn't that make obedience optional?

Gerry

You still don't get it?

Obedience is the result. Period. It is automatic. It's like breathing. It's not optional to breathe. It just happens.

[Woody]

Quote:

NOT: "By faith Abraham kept on living a life of sin."

Gerry

The point is that Abraham is saved. But he did continue to live a life of sin.

It is not an all or nothing deal Gerry. We do both. We obey and we sin. And we will until the day we die.

But if you have your eyes on your sins ... you will really die and die eternally. But instead ... I would invite you to keep your eyes on Jesus. Keep that as your focus and your works will come automatically.

[John317]

Quote:

There is NOTHING in Scripture that I know of that gives me assurance that I can keep on living a life of sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation. If you know of one, please, show it.

Try John 3:16 .

We all will sin until the day we die. That is clear. We WILL continue to live a life of sin....

I believe your error is that you use words in a way that is contrary to the teachings of both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. For instance, where does the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that believers who are faithful to God "will continue to live a life of sin"?

"Living in sin" means that sin becomes your way of life, something that you do continuously. Compare what Romans 6 and 8 say about this. It says we used to be slaves of sin but because of Christ's Spirit in us, we are freed from slavery to sin and are now slaves of righteousness. It doesn't mean we never sin, but we are not slaves of it and are not living it it. Living in sin is the same as practicing sin. We practice what we plan to do and what we intend to get better at. We do them habitually and because of intentionally planning before we do them. Like practicing the piano or the violin.

You seem unable to grasp the meaning of "practice sin" and "willful, deliberate sins."

When you say that all sins are willful sins, you simply demonstrate a lack of understanding of what those words mean and how they are used in the law, in Scripture and in the Spirit of prophecy.

There is a big difference between "willful crime," and crime that is not willful.

The Bible speaks of intentional sins and sins that are not intentional. For instance, there are sins of ignorance and sins that you plan to commit.

The Spirit of prophecy makes these distinctions as well. Ellen White talks about deliberate, willful sins. The dictionary helps us understand the difference. Willful sins are sins that you stubbornly plan to commit, even though you are not compelled to do them. You want to commit them; you plan to do it.

The dictionary makes these distinctions very plain as well.

[John317]

So 1 John 1:9 defines a practiced sin as one that I am unwilling to repent of before God.

That is part of it, I agree, but the practiced sin is also the sin that I do continually, customarily, and habitually. You can "repent" of it after you do it but if you are doing it every day, and are not overcoming it-- but are being overcome by it-- then it is a practiced sin.

[Woody]

When there clearly is a way to not sin and we sin ... that is 'willful' and 'deliberate' in my book. Ellen White says that we have no excuse for sinning. I firmly believe that. If we know God as is our privilege to know God ... we will not sin. The way is clear. If we reject God ... we will sin and that is willful and deliberate because we have no need to do it. The way of escape is clear. We deliberately reject the way of God to not sin.

The Bible, Ellen White and the dictionary make all of this very clear.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So 1 John 1:9 defines a practiced sin as one that I am unwilling to repent of before God.

That is part of it, I agree, but the practiced sin is also the sin that I do continually, customarily, and habitually. You can "repent" of it after you do it but if you are doing it every day, and are not overcoming it-- but are being overcome by it-- then it is a practiced sin.

We all practice it. I could list a description of your practice ... but then that would not be accepted. But we are told over and over about some of the sins we 'practice'.

[Robert]

So, when a sinner has repented of a "practiced sin," what then does he do?

Gerry

I said nothing about repenting of "practiced sin"! For one it wouldn't be practiced sin, now would it?

Look, here's the issue: If I know in my conscience that adultery is sin and refuse to repent of it in my life, then I am being self-righteous. I am saying, "I ain't no sinner". That's why one will be lost, not because of his sin, but because of his self-righteousness, which is nothing more than unbelief.

[Robert]

Yeah, Robert acknowledges a little growth, but obedience? No! That's anathema!

Gerry

Obedience? If I obey the law...especially its spirit as did Christ...then that's obedience. What you do is maybe at best partial obedience. But then I can't read your heart. It might be zero obedience because it could be 100% self-righteousness. Only God knows, but you talk just like Job before trouble came his way.

[Robert]

For instance, where does the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that believers who are faithful to God "will continue to live a life of sin"?

Bible: "If we say we have no sin...." "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

SOP: "As long as life shall last there will be no point where we can say that we have arrived" [context is perfection]

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory (as in the glory of God - His agape love) surrounding the heavenly messenger (angel) that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate [size:23pt]its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Okay John, is your selfishness...your love of self gone or are you still practicing self-love? I know, I know...you say self-love isn't sin. Well, then you are in agreement with Satan!

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

That is part of it' date=' I agree, but the practiced sin is also the sin that I do continually, customarily, and habitually. You can "repent" of it after you do it but if you are doing it every day, and are not overcoming it-- but are being overcome by it-- then it is a practiced sin. [/quote']

We all practice it. I could list a description of your practice ... but then that would not be accepted. But we are told over and over about some of the sins we 'practice'.

Let's be open and honest about this. What sins do you feel that I "practice"?

Perhaps I am not aware of something as a sin that you are aware of, so I would appreciate your insight. Or perhaps I am not aware of "practicing" it.

[John317]

When there clearly is a way to not sin and we sin ... that is 'willful' and 'deliberate' in my book. Ellen White says that we have no excuse for sinning. I firmly believe that. If we know God as is our privilege to know God ... we will not sin. The way is clear. If we reject God ... we will sin and that is willful and deliberate because we have no need to do it. The way of escape is clear. We deliberately reject the way of God to not sin.

Are there sins of ignorance? Sins people commit and do not even know at the time that they are sins?

Are there sins where a person does not plan it but it happens at a weak moment or when a temptation from outside is presented suddenly?

There are also sins that the Holy Spirit has not yet convicted us of or made us aware of-- sometimes because we haven't studied the Bible on a particular point yet.

An example of this may be the Sabbath. Or the practice of homosexuality. Or even the practice of telling "little white lies." Or looking at "soft porn." Or listening to the wrong type of music.

Those are all unplanned. They are not willful sins that people are aware of or due to deliberation and planning even when they are convicted that they are sins.

By contrast, a willful, deliberate practice of sin, would be if I believe and am under conviction that it is wrong to steal things at my work and take them home, but I keep doing it every week or every day. It takes planning and deliberation. I have to make sure no one is watching maybe. Maybe I have to park my car in a certain spot. Maybe I have to falsify records, etc. And it is continual. I have no plan to stop. I do not even repent or ask forgiveness. I know it is stealing and that it is wrong, but I rationalize it away.

That's an example of willful, deliberate practicing of sin. I'm sure you can think of others like that.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

For instance, where does the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say that believers who are faithful to God "will continue to live a life of sin"?

Bible: "If we say we have no sin...." "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

SOP: "As long as life shall last there will be no point where we can say that we have arrived" [context is perfection]

Do those those quotes say, "We will continue to live a life of sin"?

Compare Psalm 119-- hear the Psalmist and the other prophets and apostles:

"Thy Word have I hid mine heart, that I might not sin against you."

"I will delight myself in thy statues: I will not forget thy word."

"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever."

"Depart from me, ye evil-doers; for I will keep the commandments of my God."

"Salvation is far from the wicked; for they seek not thy statutes."

So my question is, where does a prophet of God or the Bible anywhere say, "I will keep on living a life of sin"? Neither the Bible nor the Spirit of prophecy say that.

1 John 1: 8 does not say " I am going to continue living a life of sin." To say so is to totally misunderstand the verses and the gospel. Don't forget 1 John 3: 1-10; 5: 1-20, which clearly says that those with the Spirit are overcomers of sin, not continuous victims of it.

What is "a life of sin," anyway?

It is planning on living IN sin and making it a habit and a life-style. God gives us power to leave all that behind us. We become slaves of righteousness, no longer giving our members over to the service and work of the devil. We now serve Christ. We hate the devil and sin, and we refuse to let him use us for his purposes. When you reach that point, you are not living a life of sin. You are living for God.

(Lest you misunderstand: This does not mean a person is sinless or thinks he is living up to all the law or not falling short of God's glory.)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So 1 John 1:9 defines a practiced sin as one that I am unwilling to repent of before God.

.... You can "repent" of it after you do it but if you are doing it every day, and are not overcoming it-- but are being overcome by it-- then it is a practiced sin.

No John, it would be a besetting sin!