Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...?

[Robert]

"Great peace have those who love your law [Torah - the Bible of David's day]; nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 ESV.

[Robert]

1) Can the commandments of God be changed?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

1) Can the commandments of God be changed?

The law, which encompasses much more than 10 brief rules, cannot be changed. Namely, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the law of earth and heaven.

Have any of the Ten Commandments been changed?

Has the fourth commandment been changed?

[John317]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Do you believe it's God's will for everyone to acknowledge Him as Creator and Savior and to keep the seventh-day Sabbath?

[/quote']

Sorry, John, the 4th commandment from the first set of tablets doesn't inject your meaning. According to the 4th commandment of the original tablets one rests outwardly because he agrees that's God's creation is sinless. This isn't true after the fall. Hence the it was changed from one of creation to the redemption of the Jews from Egyptian bondage.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In your thinking, of what importance is it for anyone to keep the Sabbath today? Does it matter whether you or I keep the Sabbath?

[Robert]

Does it matter whether you or I keep the Sabbath?

Depends....Did it matter if the NT believers rejected circumcision as taught in the book of the law? No! Did it matter if Abraham rejected it? Yes. Why?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John

Does it matter whether you or I keep the Sabbath?

Depends....Did it matter if the NT believers rejected circumcision as taught in the book of the law? No! Did it matter if Abraham rejected it? Yes. Why?

It did not matter if NT believers rejected circumcision because that was not God's will for them. Circumcision was not part of the New Covenant. It has no place in anything any more under the New Agreement.

It mattered if Abraham rejected it because it was a command of God and therefore it had meaning at that time.

The weekly Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant, is it not?

[Robert]

It did not matter if NT believers rejected circumcision because that was not God's will for them.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You don't have to obey God's commandments anymore.

The underlined shows Gerry's problem. He looks at the law as a set of rules to be kept - Do this, don't do that....And he finds himself quite happy with his attainments (as did Saul the Pharisee). He continues to fails to see the marked difference between himself and Christ. When I point out that he is failing to fully measure up does he become humble? No, he gets all self-righteous. He hates admitting he is not measuring up so he goes back to clubbing you with more law. Why? Misery loves company and to folks like Gerry (although he won't admit it) the law has become a yoke of bondage and so he wants you to share his pain.

Beware of such men,

Rob

No only are trying to palm off the deceptive wisdom of the serpent, i.e. you will not surely die if you disobey God, but you are also doing the role of being "accuser of the brethren" very well. You can't read hearts, yet you accuse others of narrow-mindedness, self-righteousness, and pride.

[color:red]"God did not make the ininite sacrifice of giving His only-begotten Son to our world, to secure for man the privilege of breaking the commandments of God in this life and in the future eternal life. This is an infamous lie originated by Satan, which must be made to appear in its false, deceitful character. This law which Satan so much desires to have regarded null and void, is the great moral standard of righteousness. Any violation is an act of transgression against God, and will be visited with the penalty of the divine law. To all the inhabitants of the world who make void the law of Jehovah, and contnue to live in transgression, death must surely come." 6BC 1116 (MS 72, 1901).

I grieve for you, Robert, and all those fall under your spell. I pray that the Holy Spirit can still break through your blindness. On the one hand you appear as though standing on the side of God, but like Lucifer, undermining His authority at the same time by declaring His law null and void! That is the "mystery of lawlessness."

Gerry

[Robert]

I grieve for you, Robert, and all those fall under your spell. I pray that the Holy Spirit can still break through your blindness. On the one hand you appear as though standing on the side of God, but like Lucifer, undermining His authority at the same time by declaring His law null and void! That is the "mystery of lawlessness."

Gerry

Thank you Gerry for those crocodile tears. Again, you distort! It's called bearing false witness.

Rob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

It did not matter if NT believers rejected circumcision because that was not God's will for them.

Why? I'll give you clue: Phil. chapter 3

Quote:

The weekly Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant, is it not?

It is a seal yet to be realized just like Abraham was justified by faith alone while uncircumcised.

BTW, your tone is very demanding.

ROb

Let me quote John317 with a little change in the name ...

"But when you talk about these things, I do not hear love in your tone. I hear condemnation spoken as if in glee, just like you have done here.

I have seen that a lot in your writings, (John317), and it concerns me.

I hear laughter in your accusations.

It is as if you enjoy pointing out that people are not sinless or absolutely perfect even when they have never claimed that they are.

You don't seem to realize that the issue is not about being without sin or obeying God's law in such a way as to earn salvation. It is about letting Christ's character-- His Spirit-- shine through. You may not see Christ's character but that is because you are not looking for Christ's character. You see what you are looking for. What is it you are looking for? --- are you looking for things about people that make them look bad? "

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I grieve for you, Robert, and all those fall under your spell. I pray that the Holy Spirit can still break through your blindness. On the one hand you appear as though standing on the side of God, but like Lucifer, undermining His authority at the same time by declaring His law null and void! That is the "mystery of lawlessness."

Gerry

Thank you Gerry for those crocodile tears. Again, you distort! It's called bearing false witness.

Rob

Why are they trying to 'rob' you of your saved status Rob? I think the scriptures say something about this.

[Robert]

Why are they trying to 'rob' you of your saved status Rob? I think the scriptures say something about this.

Because I don't think like they do and they must think they are the gate-keepers. Typical legalism!

Look, I've continually said that the last 6 commandments are a standard of Christian living. Not that we are under law....

And I've also said that the Sabbath is a seal, yet to be fully realized, of the righteousness we have now by faith alone.

And I've also taught, what the Bible teaches, and that is that none of us are fully measuring up to God's law and therefore we can never be justified by law....Never. It doesn't deny growth.

But Gerry and John will falsely accuse me of being against the law. "The entire law is summed in the words: love your neighbor as yourself." That's the aim....

Yet I'm called names....And of course, I call names myself. But at least they are accurate!

Rob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Why are they trying to 'rob' you of your saved status Rob? I think the scriptures say something about this.

Because I don't think like they do and they must think they are the gate-keepers. Typical legalism!

Look, I've continually said that the last 6 commandments are a standard of Christian living. Not that we are under law....

And I've also said that the Sabbath is a seal, yet to be fully realized, of the righteousness we have now by faith alone.

And I've also taught, what the Bible teaches, and that is that none of us are fully measuring up to God's law and therefore we can never be justified by law....Never. It doesn't deny growth.

But Gerry and John will falsely accuse me of being against the law. "The entire law is summed in the words: love your neighbor as yourself." That's the aim....

Yet I'm called names....And of course, I call names myself. But at least they are accurate!

Rob

Thanks Rob. I think that is very clear.

Yes. I agree. Those in Christ are no longer under the condemnation of the Law thanks to Jesus. But some think they can measure up. We have to accept their fruitless ascent of matching up to the law. I pray they will better understand some day ... but in the meantime ... I believe they are still in a saved status. They would disagree ... but I think they remain a child of God while they are working hard to match up to the law.

Some day ... like you ... they will wake up. Either now or in Heaven. What do you think?

I appreciate that you said ""The entire law is summed in the words: love your neighbor as yourself." That's the aim...."

Like you so frequently stress .... We are to obey the law but we have to go much beyond the law and love our neighbor as ourselves. WE must give our all. Yes, it is impossible and that is the point. It is SO impossible for us sinners that to be saved ... we must accept the life of Jesus on our behalf. In the meantime while on this earth ... we are called to keep the law and also the spirit of the law. We must do our little part in this commission to help the world as we can.

We do so though in a saved status. We do so because we ARE saved.

Thanks for all your contributions Rob. I appreciate you being here.

RED

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Thank you Gerry for those crocodile tears. Again, you distort! It's called bearing false witness.

Rob

Why are they trying to 'rob' you of your saved status Rob? I think the scriptures say something about this.

Do you also believe that the law and obedience have been done away with, Redwood?

Gerry

[Woody]

Do you also believe that the law and obedience have been done away with, Redwood?

Gerry

As far as an issue of Salvation??

YES Praise God.

Our salvation is based TOTALLY on the merits of Jesus Christ. Not of any works of the law or obedience that we might have to offer.

[Mark Anthony]

This is an interesting topic . The Sabbath is God's infallible command. The Roman Church has no authority to change this law accordding to their conveinience.

The question is , Which laws has God made 'void' and 'nullified' thru the death of Jesus ?

The 10 commandments ? God forbid.

This is all Robert was trying to say.

On the other hand , the Leviticle laws of the 'old' covenant have been 'voided' and 'nullified' in the 'new' covenant.

The 10 commandments are forever. Period.

On the other hand , this raises questions to our Christian conscience. Like for example , why does Zechariah 14 teach millenial sacrifices for Israel. What about Ezekial 40 thru 48 ?

Are Christians expected to keep the Feast of Tabernacles thruout the millenium ?

Does Ezekial 39 teach that God the Father will rule as the Lord of Host again , like in the former times of old ?

[Woody]

Quote:

The wisdom he is offering goes back to the garden of Eden when a certain wise serpent said, "You shall not surely die," for disobeying God.

Gerry ... Last I checked ... we all die even if we are sinless ... which we are not because 'all sin and all die'.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you also believe that the law and obedience have been done away with, Redwood?

Gerry

As far as an issue of Salvation??

YES Praise God.

Our salvation is based TOTALLY on the merits of Jesus Christ. Not of any works of the law or obedience that we might have to offer.

Everyone should realize that anyone who is saved will be saved on the basis of the merits of Jesus Christ. That is well established and I don't think anyone has said anything different from that. The question is, does faith release us from obedience to God's Ten Commandment law and the other moral laws of the Bible?

Robert limits the standard of Christian living to the last 6 commandments, related only to our relationship to our fellow man. But the standard of Christian living includes the whole moral law, not merely the last 6. God writes the whole moral law on our hearts and minds-- if we will allow Him to write them there. He doesn't write the law on our minds and hearts against our will.

Jack Sequeira himself wrote that "the Spirit cannot fulfill His desires without the approval of the mind." (Christ Speaks To Laodicea, p. 53.)

If we resist and refuse to submit to God's holy, just and good law, it is proof that we are still carnal, in the flesh, and cannot please God. (See Romans 7: 12; 8: 7, 8.) Those who do this are not led by the Spirit and thus are not sons of God (Romans 8:1-14). It is the carnal mind-- the flesh-- which is not subject to the law of God (Romans 8:7). See also 1 John 1: 7 to 2:6 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

Notice the following from the Spirit of prophecy regarding the relationship of the law and the gospel and salvation--

Quote:

There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith,and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. Steps To Christ, 59-61.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you also believe that the law and obedience have been done away with, Redwood?

Gerry

As far as an issue of Salvation??

YES Praise God.

Our salvation is based TOTALLY on the merits of Jesus Christ. Not of any works of the law or obedience that we might have to offer.

And because our salvation is totally dependent on the merits of Christ, that whether you obey God's law or not has no bearing on your salvation? That you can lie, steal, fornicate, bow to idols, and still have the assurance of salvation?

Gerry

[BobRyan]

Ellen White argued that the great majority of the saints were "outside the Adventist denomination". The argument of scripture is "To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4.

We can trust God in this case for HE IS "The Spirit of truth that convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment".

Our role is not to work ourselves up into a state of thinking that only an Adventist can be saved - (something that hopefully no one is arguing here) - but rather to follow the Holy Spirit -- saying whatever HE LEADS us to say via doors HE opens.

And if the door is NOT open -- no speaking.

ONE plants another waters and still another reaps.

But the "other sheep not of this fold" scenario will not be ended until just before the 2nd coming. And even then I doubt it will be a brick-and-mortar organizational entity.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Robert limits the standard of Christian living to the last 6 commandments, related only to our relationship to our fellow man. But the standard of Christian living includes the whole moral law, not merely the last 6. God writes the whole moral law on our hearts and minds-- if we will allow Him to write them there. He doesn't write the law on our minds and hearts against our will.

Faith in Jesus Christ replaces the first, four commandments of the law! Evidence:

John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 6:28 They said therefore to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Acts 16:29 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

All through the NT, "faith" marks our relationship to Christ. In return Christ sends the Spirit so that we might witness that salvation to others through a changed life that is in harmony with the last 6 commandments. Hence you see statement after statement that says, "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'”

Take the Gentiles who didn't have the Torah, yet through what was created they recognized God and accepted Him. What was written in their hearts? If you say the Sabbath, then why weren't these Gentiles found keeping the Sabbath?

Here's another argument: You stated, "God writes the whole moral law on our hearts and minds-- if we will allow Him to write them there."

If I were a Baptist, etc., I would be offended by your statement for it infers that all non-Sabbath keeping Christians are somehow dishonest - i.e., 2nd class Christians.

I mean think about your self-righteous statement, John. If the Spirit writes the Sabbath on the heart then all non-Sabbath Christians are rejecting God's will. That's pretty much what you stated when you said, "He doesn't write the law on our... hearts against our will."

So your arguments are poor. In fact they are Old Covenant in nature because they come from the OT, not the NT.

Again, the Sabbath is a seal of RBF. It will be connected to the proclamation of the gospel, restored.

Rob

[Robert]

And because our salvation is totally dependent on the merits of Christ, that whether you obey God's law or not has no bearing on your salvation? That you can lie, steal, fornicate, bow to idols, and still have the assurance of salvation? Gerry

Gerry, why limit the rules to just those few you named? Let's name harder ones, okay? Oh, yeah, that's right...self-love is from God! Ellen doesn't agree:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. But the law of self-sacrifice [agape love] is the law of self-preservation." [COL 86]

Do you still feel holy?

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

Now, since the love of self (self-seeking) is sin (iniquity) and since many of us (if not all) still retain self-love and self-seeking in our lives, aren't we guilty of continuing in sin?

Good Point Rob.