Not so serious anymore

[Amelia]

Quote:

She has been praying for healing for 30 years, fulfilling all the conditions as far as we can understand, all of that... and nothing.

In cases like this I wonder if the person isn't so caught up in the problem that they have not heard or felt God answer? Maybe the horrible feelings and thoughts are so ingrained that the sufferer doesn't, can't, or want to let them go? After all, some people become defined by a catastrophic event. If they didn't have all that drama, who would they be?

I'm not saying that this is what is happening to this woman, just that it is this way for some.

[Bravus]

Fair comment, but it's not at all like that in this situation. No drama, just complete emotional numbness and no access to her own emotions. If God had answered (at least with a 'Yes') there'd be very noticable changes.

Gerry, I get what you're saying, but that comes back to my earlier question: how is that situation distinguishable from God not existing at all? If we ask and the answer is empirically indistinguishable from the normal operation of the world... why ask?

[Woody]

Personally ... I no longer pray for my trials to be removed. I pray for the strength to endure and overcome the adversary who is providing them.

[Lineman]

Redwood wrote:

Quote:

Yes. You are right Bravus. The options we have are not all pretty. But I choose to believe that God has his hand tied. The rules of the game require that sin run it's course for the Universe to see. Unfortunately we have to live it. It affects us greatly. But we are on screen for all the Universe and for us (His Saints) to see. Sin can never again return. So, we must most throughly hate it and it's results. And Jesus can't just let us off the hook from the results of sin. They must be shown and hated.

Very well written and thanks for the reminder. http://www.bibletimelines.org/big_picture_start.htm

[carolaa]

Sometimes God does send help but we don't recognize it. If we don't cooperate with the help He sends - such as professional counselors, medication, etc. - then we can't very well blame Him when nothing changes.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

for just one second

I wish a certain banned member back for her perspective on this topic. I know it would be in keeping with mine, but her presentation of it would be ever so more eloquent.

[Bravus]

Quote:

Sometimes God does send help but we don't recognize it. If we don't cooperate with the help He sends - such as professional counselors, medication, etc. - then we can't very well blame Him when nothing changes.

Again, how is that different from God not being there at all? I know I'm hammering on this point, and I know it's an uncomfortable one, but if the claim "God will help us when we pray" just boils down to "You can go to a shrink"...

[cricket]

Agreed. But I am speaking as someone whose wife was sexually abused by her father, and that has had major consequences for her life and our life together. She has been praying for healing for 30 years, fulfilling all the conditions as far as we can understand, all of that... and nothing. Maybe there is an explanation, maybe there's a reason, but to continue to believe that God has the power to make this right but chooses not to is to make it very hard to keep rationalising the idea that God is love. I guess what we've come to is the idea that God has the power to do it but for some reason - perhaps what Redwood said about the rules of the Great Controversy - has His hands bound so that he can't do it. (The alternatives are worse - that he doesn't have the power or isn't there at all.) If that is the case - he could but can't - then it's less painful to stop asking than to keep bloodying our knuckles banging on a locked door.

I know this is nowhere near the magnitude of what your loved one has suffered, but I keep thinking about the time it takes to heal from a physical wound, and the process by which the human body heals. It is by God's magnificent power that we are healed--and though He has the power to heal instantaneously, instantaneous healing is something I've never witnessed in all my life. Healing over time is no less miraculous, however.

[sorry this post sounds disjointed, I've a couple of thoughts to share.]

There are wounds that heal with scarring. Wounds that heal with scarring and leave no sensation to touch. (I've several physical scars that have living tissue but have no feeling whatsoever.)

...

Is it possible to consider that God IS doing the healing? That it is a process, and not just a "wait" situation. Possible that emotional numbness is necessary in healing--beneficial even to the healing process itself?

...

I had a broken leg in 1993. For at least an hour after I'd broken the leg, I was struck "numb" from the knee down. I could not move my leg, nor even stand from a sitting position.

...

I think of the pain killers the doctors administer in the hospital--pain killers administered so that the healing process might take faster than otherwise. (Studies within the past 10 years have shown shorter healing times for those who adhere to a pain-relieving regimen.)

[see PM]

[Bravus]

It could be, I guess. But again, the claim is that God can do miracles, and could instantaneously heal a broken leg if he so chose. Apparently he chooses not to.

[carolaa]

Quote:

Sometimes God does send help but we don't recognize it. If we don't cooperate with the help He sends - such as professional counselors, medication, etc. - then we can't very well blame Him when nothing changes.

Again, how is that different from God not being there at all? I know I'm hammering on this point, and I know it's an uncomfortable one, but if the claim "God will help us when we pray" just boils down to "You can go to a shrink"...

I don't know about your particular situation, so I'm just speaking in general. I have seen many times where God works tremendously, over a period of time, through a trained counselor. If you're asking for an instant miracle, then you're right, God rarely chooses to work that way. Maybe because most of us need to learn patience, I don't know.

You've probably heard the story of the guy who prayed for help and then proceeded to turn away several people who stopped by to help because he was waiting for God to perform a miracle. That night he asked God why He hadn't helped him, and God reminded him of all the people He had sent to help him that day. That's kind of a simple illustration of what I'm talking about.

God does not leave us alone. He can guide us to a particular counselor or doctor or whoever that He can work through to bring healing. He normally chooses to work through other people. The only thing I have ever seen God work a miracle with - in sexual and other abuse situations - is with regard to forgiving the abuser. Most people cannot do that on their own, and it comes toward the end of the healing process.

[Gail]

It's hard to know why He doesn't heal everyone instantly when they are in pain or sorrow. But sometimes he glorifies His name in SPITE of the ailment.

This is also hard to understand, but I guess it is true that there would be no stories of courage without circumstances which demand courage.

[carolaa]

To me, the issue of pain and suffering is not at all hard to understand. It is entirely related with the issue of sin. If God came in and interfered with the results of sin all the time, we and the rest of the universe wouldn't be able to get a true picture of sin and its results. We might not think sin is so bad or sense our need of a savior. It is important that the universe see where sin leads and how sin affects much more than the person doing it, and how evil and insidious it really is, so that there will never be any doubt, through eternity, as to the character of God.

I do totally understand how it's hard to appreciate that when you're the one suffering, though.

[Jeannieb43]

That's an interesting viewpoint, carolaa. I can see your position, and it makes sense.

[Bravus]

1. Our situation is what it is - and vastly wonderful in almost all ways. We are in love and have a great family. Life is just tougher than it needs to be for Suzie, through no fault of her own, and she gets angry for the reason discussed next.

2. I understand all the points being made about the time taken, and the consequences of sin, and all that. The issue, then, is that Christians need to change their pitch. They keep making these claims about the miracles God will do if we only ask. But clearly he doesn't do them, for whatever reasons. So then they go into a whole long list of rationalisations and reasons why not. It would be much less heartbreaking not to talk about the miracles at all, if they're not really available. If what Suzie needs to do is go to a counsellor and have years of therapy, then that's what needs to happen. Telling her to pray for healing, with a side order of "and if it doesn't happen it's somehow your fault" is deeply unhelpful.

3. I appreciate all the kind support and efforts to help, but the thread is not about our situation but about faith in God and what he will and won't do.

[Gail]

Bravus, you've made a valid point. I would like to explore that further in the context of emotional sorrow and/or mental illness, but I will open a new thread for that. Please watch for it and I welcome your experienced input.

[carolaa]

Telling her to pray for healing, with a side order of "and if it doesn't happen it's somehow your fault" is deeply unhelpful.

I agree, that's really bad.

[LifeHiscost]

it's less painful to stop asking than to keep bloodying our knuckles banging on a locked door.

Then OTOH, the gift of hope to the suppliant, when given by the Holy Spirit, doesn't seem to give any quarter if one wishes to continue in hope.

"Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you. For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." Matthew 7:7,8 AMP

I knew a JW who, after 30 years of prayer, exulted over the fact that at last his daughter became a JW. Maybe God has a reason of which we are totally unaware. Even the apostle Paul accepted the fact that God said no to His entreaties about a health problem. However, anything that is good for us to have will eventually, in God's timing, come to pass for His glory.

In the meantime;

"...now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 YLT

Blessings!

[carolaa]

Yes, the apostle Paul is a good example.

I tend to think that those kinds of "ask anything" promises are intended for requests that will 1) help us grow spiritually, and 2) help us reach others for Christ. In other words, we can pretty much ask for anything in those areas, and it will be given to us.

We still need to be careful that we are in God's will when we ask, even within that paradigm - keeping in mind the time the disciples tried to cast out devils and didn't understand what they were dealing with.

We also need to keep in mind that God does not force Himself on people. I include that because there are people who pray for years for the salvation of others, but God will only work on their hearts and will not force them.

[Gerr]

I have experienced both disappointments and miracles in my own life. Therefore I have learned not to be dogmatic about either one.

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

there are people who pray for years for the salvation of others, but God will only work on their hearts and will not force them.

I'm satisfied to believe, looking in retrospect on my lifes stream, my own personal safety for eternity is largely due to (some)one taking the interest

and time to remember me in prayer to the exclusion of the prince of darknesses attempts to destroy me, before I ever thought of being a friend of God(Jesus).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 KJV

Regards!

[phkrause]

Amen LifeHiscost.

pk

[Guest truthseeker007]

I am feeling betrayed and manipulated. My hypothesis is that there is no real difference between God and Satan. Both are murderers, liars and jealous beings. I always respected God because i was convinced that he, despite of his abilities, would always choose God and would not abuse his position of power. This would imply that he would always have a fair policy.

Now consider his policy with a few examples:

- In the old testament woman children and men had to be killed by God for being disobedient or just because their (ungodly) race. Aren t these policy tools the same things that Satan uses? Why only blame Hitler, while God is a mass murderer too? Is it because Gods position of power that he is to be considered a hero while at the same time he is a mass murderer too? If there were to be a distinction between God and Satan, God would have always chosen means which are diametrical opposed to the devil tactics. The fact that he does not, is an illustration that his self proclaimed righteousness is nothing but fiction. So what is good and what is evil? God and Satan are both evil, but our conciousness defines what is good and what is evil. I geuss this is the gift that God didn t want us to receive in the garden of Eden, because it would illustrate that God isn t righteous. The only way he could still convince some people was by indoctrination, in other words, constantly repeating "i am righteous" blablablabla.. Never wondered why God is so self proclaiming about his attributes? If he really is who he claims he is, people who were not indoctrinated would apply these attributes to him out of respect, honour etc. Now all God is doing is creating a robot people to serve him and satisfy his ego.

- While the devil is stupid and so uses very low tactics like boldly killing people, God uses manupilation. For instance, in the old testament God created a people that lost their hearts by , for instance , absurd penalties for gathering sticks on the sabbath. As a result the Jews stricly kept the sabbath heartlessly. Now, when Jesus came as the Messiah he healed people on the sabbath and made the establishment look bad and heartless. I believe that it was Jesus intention in the old testament to create a miserable people, so the contrast with his coming would be greater. This is in fact deception in order to magnify self in the sight of the universe.

It is obvious that a God like this is not worthy of titles of honour, praise, fairness, kindness, meakness, grace etc. These are all self proclaimed attributes and don t mean a thing. Everybody can proclaim this stuff, but only the practical reality can prove is someone is right or wrong. Whom of you were healed by prayer? i geuss nobody, doesn t make this Jesus a liar when he said "Ask the father and you will receive?". By implying that mankind has access to the healing powers of God, God manipulated generations of people. Think about the million people desparately searching for healing, but nobody gets healed.

So how is your future gonna be like? First you will be dazzled by the riches of heaven but after a long time you will begin to qeustion the fairness of God s policy. After that you will realize that the whole universe is build upon God s ego and that there is an assymetric balance in the heavens. Once you realize this, you will come into rebellion and God will destroy you all, replacing you with a new creation. After all, God will probably be bored of the old creation anyway. By maskerading the fact that God is unrighteous and by manipulation he is able to prevent the fact that he can be overthrown. So i would urge you to use the same tactics. Once you are in heaven and you start to realise that things aren t what you have been told, keep digging into the nature of God. The fact that God needed a rest on the seventh day implies that his energy is not endless. God doesn t want you to find out about his true nature. Find out what it is, isolate him from his source of energies and force him to be an equal participant in the establishment of the order of the universe! It is up to you, don t become a robot slave untill you are getting replaced by a new order of beings.

[John317]

After years of studying with Jehovah's Witnesses and attending their Kingdom Halls, etc., I believe that while they do teach quite a few false doctrines, there are a lot worse things than being a JW. I couldn't be one because I know they are wrong on a number of key issues, but there are also a lot of things about them and about their organization that I admire. It's common for them to build a Kingdom Hall in one day-- and all for free, because the labor is all voluntary. I never felt so much love as I did among them.

[John317]

Truthseeker, are you still seeking Truth?

Sounds like you're giving the viewpoint of God that His self-declared enemy wants people to have. Is this really how you think now?

You have changed, haven't you? Are you speaking from your emotions or is this representative of your reasoning and the weight of evidence?

[John317]

...Whom of you were healed by prayer? i geuss nobody, doesn t make this Jesus a liar when he said "Ask the father and you will receive?". By implying that mankind has access to the healing powers of God, God manipulated generations of people. Think about the million people desparately searching for healing, but nobody gets healed...

People do get healed through the power of prayer, truthseeker.

But it just depends on if you want to accept the evidence or not.

Just one example: a doctor told us that my father was in need of surgery because of an infection in his kidney and a high fever, following an appendectomy which resulted in a ruptured appendix. Before the surgery, my father, an Adventist pastor, called for the other pastor and members of the church to anoint him and have special prayer. The doctor, who was an Adventist, also had prayer. Everyone prayed and they anointed my dad. They sent the gurney up to the room to take my father down to the surgery, but the doctor said that he wanted to have one more test done beforehand. The blood test was done and the results showed no infection and also no more fever. The surgery was cancelled.

That happened at Loma Linda University Medical Center in 1980, and the Doctor's name was Dr. Thompson.

I have no doubt it was an answer to prayer and that my father was healed.