What is the order of events prior to the return of Jesus?

[Lineman]

Quote:

I do think that it is important for us to know this stuff.

I don't want to blunt your enthusiasm. But I would love to hear why you feel it is important for US to know it?

And do you feel it is important to know the exact order since we seem to be having some difficulty agreeing on that?

[Woody]

Thanks for your response Lineman ... or Dan ... if I may.

I do appreciate what you have said. It does help me some.

As you have mentioned ... it is for those who are on the fence. Being not on the fence ... I don't have the same appreciation. But I can see that some may enjoy it.

My concern is that this type of message is a message of 'fear' ... I fear. At least that is how I have heard it presented. Those who come to God out of fear ... are not getting the right message. The message that is needed is one that God is LOVE. We can preach that without the deadline and threats. As soon as someone knows that God loves them ... it does not matter what the next time of the end is.

Now if you were a 'works' oriented person who felt that in order to be saved that people had to achieve some level of perfection ... then with time running out ... that might be an immediate concern.

But those IN Christ ... don't need to worry about the shortness of time in relation to their Salvation. For their Salvation is secured IN Christ.

Just a few of my thoughts ... what do you think?

[skyblue888]

welcome john... glad you are reading them... if you find anything you deem to be wrong, please let me know.

God bless,

sky

[Lineman]

Hey John317,

This quote bothers me a little bit. I cannot see both Jesus AND the Father going into the Most Holy Place.

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844, as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Is this correct? (It's not going on the timeline, but is a bit confusing to me.)

[Woody]

I'm not able to find this quote in any of her writings ... I would double check this quote. I did a search on the EGW Estate and could not come up with it. But I could be wrong.

[Lineman]

Another interesting quote related to sharing this truth with our friends:

Quote:

Some of us have had time to get the truth and to advance step by step, and every step we have taken has given us strength to take the next. But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. They will also have much to unlearn and much to learn again. - Early Writings, page 67

Wow, do we ever need God's help to make it so that people can learn this in a few months! Unless God helps us we cannot do this.

[Woody]

Okay ... that quote checks out legit ...

With God ALL things are possible.

He will do in us what is needed. Praise God.

[John317]

Hey John317,

This quote bothers me a little bit. I cannot see both Jesus AND the Father going into the Most Holy Place.

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844, as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Is this correct? (It's not going on the timeline, but is a bit confusing to me.)

Let me know what the confusion is.

I am not sure of the source of that "quote," but I hope the following helps:

Quote:

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. The Great Controversy (1911), page 422, paragraph 1

Quote:

I saw the Father rise from the throne, [sEE PAGE 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.Early Writings (1882), page 55, paragraph 1

[John317]

Early Writings (1882), page 46, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: Experience and Views

The Trial of our Faith

In this time of trial we need to be encouraged and comforted by one another. The temptations of Satan are greater now than ever before, for he knows that his time is short and that very soon every case will be decided, either for life or for death. It is no time now to sink down beneath discouragement and trial; we must bear up under all our afflictions and trust wholly in the Almighty God of Jacob. The Lord has shown me that His grace is sufficient for all our trials; and although they are greater than ever before, yet if we trust wholly in God, we can overcome every temptation and through His grace come off victorious.

If we overcome our trials and get victory over the temptations of Satan, then we endure the trial of our faith, which is more precious than gold, and are stronger and better prepared to meet the next. But if we sink down and give way to the temptations of Satan, we shall grow weaker and get no reward for the trial and shall not be so well prepared for the next. In this way we shall grow weaker and weaker, until we are led captive by Satan at his will. We must have on the whole armor of God and be ready at any moment for a conflict with the powers of darkness. When temptations and trials rush in upon us, let us go to God and agonize with Him in prayer. He will not turn us away empty, but will give us grace and strength to overcome, and to break the power of the enemy. Oh, that all could see these things in their true light and endure hardness as good soldiers of Jesus! Then would Israel move forward, strong in God, and in the power of His might.

God has shown me that He gave His people a bitter cup to drink, to purify and cleanse them. It is a bitter draught, and they can make it still more bitter by murmuring, complaining, and repining. But those who receive it thus must have another draught, for the first does not have its designed effect upon the heart. And if the second does not effect the work, then they must have another, and another, until it does have its designed effect, or they will be left filthy, impure in heart. I saw that this bitter cup can be sweetened by patience, endurance, and prayer, and that it will have its designed effect upon the hearts of those who thus receive it, and God will be honored and glorified. It is no small thing to be a Christian and to be owned and approved of God. The Lord has shown me some who profess the present truth, whose lives do not correspond with their profession. They have the standard of piety altogether too low, and they come far short of Bible holiness. Some engage in vain and unbecoming conversation, and others give way to the risings of self. We must not expect to please ourselves, live and act like the world, have its pleasures, and enjoy the company of those who are of the world, and reign with Christ in glory.

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Lineman

Hey John317,

This quote bothers me a little bit. I cannot see both Jesus AND the Father going into the Most Holy Place.

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844, as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Is this correct? (It's not going on the timeline, but is a bit confusing to me.)

Let me know what the confusion is.

I am not sure of the source of that "quote," but I hope the following helps:

Quote:

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. The Great Controversy (1911), page 422, paragraph 1

Quote:

I saw the Father rise from the throne, [sEE PAGE 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.Early Writings (1882), page 55, paragraph 1

Thanks, this is exactly what I needed. For some reason I had thought of the Father being in the Most Holy Place all the time. I had thought that this is where His thone was I guess.

[John317]

Thanks, this is exactly what I needed. For some reason I had thought of the Father being in the Most Holy Place all the time. I had thought that this is where His thone was I guess.

This scene of the Father and Son at that important point is portrayed in Daniel 7: 9-14.

[John317]

Early Writings (1882), page 47-48

Chapter Title: Experience and Views

We must be partakers of Christ's sufferings here if we would share in His glory hereafter. If we seek our own interest, how we can best please ourselves, instead of seeking to please God and advance His precious, suffering cause, we shall dishonor God and the holy cause we profess to love. We have but a little space of time left in which to work for God. Nothing should be too dear to sacrifice for the salvation of the scattered and torn flock of Jesus. Those who make a covenant with God by sacrifice now will soon be gathered home to share a rich reward and possess the new kingdom forever and ever.

Oh, let us live wholly for the Lord and show by a well-ordered life and godly conversation that we have been with Jesus and are His meek and lowly followers. We must work while the day lasts, for when the dark night of trouble and anguish comes, it will be too late to work for God. Jesus is in His holy temple and will now accept our sacrifices, our prayers, and our confessions of faults and sins and will pardon all the transgressions of Israel, that they may be blotted out before He leaves the sanctuary. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjust and filthy still; for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne. Therefore what is done to rescue souls from the coming storm of wrath must be done before Jesus leaves the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Lineman

Thanks, this is exactly what I needed. For some reason I had thought of the Father being in the Most Holy Place all the time. I had thought that this is where His thone was I guess.

This scene of the Father and Son at that important point is portrayed in Daniel 7: 9-14.

Could you tell me what post you got the "quote" from?

It was not in a post, but found in one of the e-books you are reading/studing. Page 12 of the series (second link, I think).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you tell me what post you got the "quote" from?

It was not in a post, but found in one of the e-books you are reading/studing. Page 12 of the series (second link, I think).

Yes, thank you. I saw that just now. I hadn't looked at everything on that link.

[Lineman]

Interesting. One quote says that Jesus is before the Father's throne

Quote:

for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne.

and the other says that the Father leaves His throne to go into the sanctuary.

Quote:

I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down.

How do you reconcile/understand that? (I'm sure that there is a way to see this both ways, but right now I am stumped.)

[Lineman]

Thanks for your response Lineman ... or Dan ... if I may.

I do appreciate what you have said. It does help me some.

As you have mentioned ... it is for those who are on the fence. Being not on the fence ... I don't have the same appreciation. But I can see that some may enjoy it.

My concern is that this type of message is a message of 'fear' ... I fear. At least that is how I have heard it presented. Those who come to God out of fear ... are not getting the right message. The message that is needed is one that God is LOVE. We can preach that without the deadline and threats. As soon as someone knows that God loves them ... it does not matter what the next time of the end is.

Now if you were a 'works' oriented person who felt that in order to be saved that people had to achieve some level of perfection ... then with time running out ... that might be an immediate concern.

But those IN Christ ... don't need to worry about the shortness of time in relation to their Salvation. For their Salvation is secured IN Christ.

Just a few of my thoughts ... what do you think?

No problem. I hope you don't see a timeline of these events as something to "enjoy" though. That is not the purpose, though I do not want it to be a burden to study either. And as far as this being a fear thing, I see it as a wake-up-call for some who think that they have all the time in the world to make a decision when there really isn't much time.

I very much agree that knowing that God loves us is what is most important for us to understand and accept. That is the focus of Bible Timelines Online. (Just read the home page, especially the bottom.)

Blessings,

Dan (Dan is much easier to write. I chose Lineman just because I'm into timelines a little.)

[Lineman]

Someone questioned if the Sunday law was going to be universal right away. Found this quote:

Quote:

Under the influence of the United States of America, the apostasy will spread throughout the world as other nations enact their own national Sunday laws. The result will be a world-wide, or universal, Sunday law.

The pattern shown in the quotations is this:

(1) The National Sunday Law is first enacted in the United States.

(2) The other nations of the “Christian” world (Europe, Canada, Australia, Central and South America,

and the Philippines) more rapidly follow.

(3) All nations will be cajoled or coerced into passing and enforcing similar enactments.

End of Time Series, page 20

[John317]

Interesting. One quote says that Jesus is before the Father's throne

Quote:

for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne.

and the other says that the Father leaves His throne to go into the sanctuary.

Quote:

I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down.

How do you reconcile/understand that?

Daniel 7: 9 portrays the throne of God with wheels, clearly indicating that it is not stationary but moves from one place to another. God's throne, then, moves into the Most Holy Place, representing the beginning of the final phase of atonement.

WE shouldn't think that God's throne is a chair or seat. It is the center of God's activities, somewhat like the capital of God's government. So when it says the Father leaves His throne, it is simply saying that God's activities and work enter a new phase. At that point, God's throne actually moves into the Most Holy Place, as pictured in Daniel 7: 9, 10, 13.

At the end of human probation, Jesus is no longer our High Priest. He no longer receives confessions of sins. You might say that God's laundry is closed. Thank God the laundry is still in service but it won't be in service forever. God intends to bring sin to an end.

[John317]

I'm not able to find this quote in any of her writings ... I would double check this quote. I did a search on the EGW Estate and could not come up with it. But I could be wrong.

What quote were you looking for and couldn't find? Was it this?--

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844, as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Did you ever find it?

I'm interested to know if you believe in the Investigative Judgment.

[Robert]

I'm interested to know if you believe in the Investigative Judgment.

I believe in Christ. He is my righteousness! I stand before God's throne complete "in Christ Jesus". That's what matters. So I'm not afraid of the judgment because of my position "in Christ". I have assurance....

Rob

[Woody]

Wow Robert! That is SO cool. That is the way it should be. Thanks for the testimony.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I'm not able to find this quote in any of her writings ... I would double check this quote. I did a search on the EGW Estate and could not come up with it. But I could be wrong.

What quote were you looking for and couldn't find? Was it this?--

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844, as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Did you ever find it?

No. I double checked it with the White Estate and according to them ... it does not exist. Are you sure it is by EGW ?

[Woody]

Quote:

I'm interested to know if you believe in the Investigative Judgment.

Yes

[Lineman]

The quote Redwood is looking for is not a statement EGW made (if it's the one John317 has above). I did go look for it on page 12 of what I was reading and have not found it, sorry. It was made by Pastor Vance Ferrell. If I can find it again I will share it here again. Is that needed?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What quote were you looking for and couldn't find? Was it this?--

Quote:

The beginning of the investigative judgment in 1844' date=' as Jesus and the Father pass from the first to second apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary to begin the final atonement. - END OF TIME SERIES, page 12

Did you ever find it?

No. I double checked it with the White Estate and according to them ... it does not exist. Are you sure it is by EGW ?[/quote']

No one ever said that is a quote from Ellen White. The concept, however, is clearly taught in the Spirit of prophecy, as below:

Quote:

Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming. The Great Controversy (1911), page 422, paragraph 1

I saw the Father rise from the throne, [sEE PAGE 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.Early Writings (1882), page 55, paragraph 1