What is the order of events prior to the return of Jesus?

[skyblue888]

John317 quoted: "The last major confrontation of the nineteenth century took place over whether Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition would open on Sundays. In 1892, Congress debated and voted to tie Sunday closing to the fair's financing. The closing issue was later contested in the Illinois courts, and the fair ultimately opened on Sundays for part of its run."

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Thanks John for that interesting piece of info. I wrote an article on this topic a few years ago. If I find it, I will reproduce it. Its my files somewhere.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In fact, if I am correct, the image of the beast was made in 1892 as Congress passed a National Sunday Law to close the Chicago fair on Sundays. Mrs. White sent a telegram from Australia saying that the image of the beast was made. But the whole process was stopped because the latter rain message was resisted. A.T. Jones defeated that law in Congress.

Know anything about that?

ps. the sundaly laws you are referring to were mere sunday blue laws, nothing to do with a National Sunday Law to enforce Sunday worship. If I am wrong, I stand to be corrected.

There are three distinct things to track here -

1. State-level Sunday laws (no-work laws)that do not enforce worship - just mandate that businesses close.

Historically in the 40's or 50's I think some laws were going into place -- some SDAs were challenging them by working on Sunday and I think some people went to jail. Does anyone have the specifics?

2. National level Sunday laws - federal laws that mandate that businesses close but do not forbid church services on Saturday nor do they mandate church attendance on Sunday NOR do they claim Sunday is holy or a worship day.

3. National Day of Reverence for Sunday - where individuals must sign up in agreement to honor the National Day of Reverence.

I think some form of #1 is in almost every state - I just don't know the dates when 90% or more states finally had them.

#2 and #3 we have not gotten.

There is probably also a 4th one -- where the World itself adopts the same idea of "National Day of Reverence".

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks for that Bob.

sky

[John317]

John317, you wrote:

See GC 627. This is speaking of the United States after the universal Sunday law.

First comes the image to the papacy, enforced by the combined authority of church and state, then national apostasy, followed rapidly by national ruin. LDE 134.

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The enactment of the National Sunday Law is in itself "national apostasy" followed by "national ruin."

right?

National apostasy is a process. This process begins with the protestant and Catholic churches working hand in hand together with the state. It culminates in the forming of the image to the beast, and this in turn leads rapidly to national ruin. See Ev 235.

Before the outcry over morals which leads to the cry for Sunday laws, there will be major calamities as well as financial ruin. The financial ruin comes a short while before the Sunday laws and even longer before national ruin. National ruin occurs at the time of the Universal Sunday Law. The calamities and financial ruin-- and doubtless other crisis as well-- are what causes people to cry for Sunday laws.

Added later: It is clear from the Spirit of prophecy that the proof of National Apostasy occurs when the National Sunday Law goes into effect and is enforced. There will no doubt be a period before it when the nation is apostatisizing, and this apostasy will rapidly lead to national ruin.

[John317]

BOB RYAN:-- There are three distinct things to track here -

1. State-level Sunday laws (no-work laws)that do not enforce worship - just mandate that businesses close.

Historically in the 40's or 50's I think some laws were going into place -- some SDAs were challenging them by working on Sunday and I think some people went to jail. Does anyone have the specifics?

I have a book which goes into great detail about this. In the 1880s Seventh Day Adventists paid fines and served time in jail for working on their farms on Sunday. I'll add documentation later.

Quote:

2. National level Sunday laws - federal laws that mandate that businesses close but do not forbid church services on Saturday nor do they mandate church attendance on Sunday NOR do they claim Sunday is holy or a worship day.

3. National Day of Reverence for Sunday - where individuals must sign up in agreement to honor the National Day of Reverence.

I think some form of #1 is in almost every state - I just don't know the dates when 90% or more states finally had them.

#2 and #3 we have not gotten.

There is probably also a 4th one -- where the World itself adopts the same idea of "National Day of Reverence".

I believe you're right. It will work incrementally, gradually.

[skyblue888]

"When our nation (USA)in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those that keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in the land and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

Note that this statement distinctly equates the passing of the Sunday law and its enforcement on the national scale with national apostasy. This is further made plain in this statement that tells us that by this act the USA will have fully disconnected herself from righteousness.

"By the decree enforcing the institution of the Papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation (USA) will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its constitution as a Protestant and Republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehood and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvellous working of Satan and that the end is

near. As the approach of the Roman soldiers was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy be a sign to us that the limit of God's forbearance is reached and that the angel of mercy is about to take her flight."

"When our nation (USA)in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those that keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in the land and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

"When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular powers to sustain a false religion for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin." Evangelism p.235.

"It is at the time of the national apostasy, when, acting the policy of Satan, the rulers of the land will rank themselves on the side of the man of sin, it is then that the measure of guilt is full; the national apostasy is the signal for national ruin." Selected Messages, Vol.2, p.373.

[Lineman]

Hi my friends,

I don't get enough time during the week to visit here as much as I would like, but it is sure good to see so much discussion going on here. Just so that you know, I am reading and listening.

Thanks and blessings,

Dan

[Lineman]

Quote:

Perhaps someone could tell me why ... as a Christian ... that I should care?

Way back in one of the first posts in this thread a question was made as to why we as Christians should care about the final events. As long as we have given our hearts to the Lord maybe we should not be concerned. It's a fair question.

This may be a little late, but I thought an EGW quote might help:

Our time for work is limited, and God calls us as ministers and people to be minutemen. Teachers as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves must come to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty. There are many who do not understand the prophecies relating to these days, and they must be enlightened.--Letter 1, 1875. {Ev 237.1}

[Lineman]

I guess I am still confused. (Help me out please.)

If I understand correctly, once we have received the Mark of the Beast or the Seal of God there is no changing our minds, our probation has closed. Isn't that right? John317, you said that they are not the same, why?

Quote:

5. The Seal and the Mark (Isn’t this the same as the close of probation?) (No, not same.)

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I know that these are not the same exact event, but happen at the same time. One is the decision, the other is the result. Is that what you meant?

[BobRyan]

One could conceivably accept the Mark then later repent and choose Christ. Remember that probation for the world closes AFTER probation for the church -- Ezek 9 they START marking the with the SEAL - starting with the Elders and the people of God. While that sealing is going on -- so also is evangelism.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

I guess I am still confused. (Help me out please.)

If I understand correctly, once we have received the Mark of the Beast or the Seal of God there is no changing our minds, our probation has closed. Isn't that right? John317, you said that they are not the same, why?

Quote:

5. The Seal and the Mark (Isn’t this the same as the close of probation?) (No, not same.)

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I know that these are not the same exact event, but happen at the same time. One is the decision, the other is the result. Is that what you meant?

It basically comes down to the fact that not everyone is sealed or receives the Mark of the Beast at the same time. The close of human probation is not simply when it closes for some people but is that time beyond which there is no more probation for anyone. It occurs just before the time of Jacob's Trouble, at the beginning of which the four winds of strife are released. See 18 MR 177; Mar 266; TM 444-445; 7 BC 968

[John317]

Remember that probation for the world closes AFTER probation for the church -- Ezek 9 they START marking the with the SEAL - starting with the Elders and the people of God. While that sealing is going on -- so also is evangelism.

I agree. Probation closes for individuals in the church before it closes for the world because much of the world won't have understood the issues clearly up to that point. The Lord passes by those in the church who have long known the issues but who haven't acted on their knowledge.

[John317]

Quote:

Perhaps someone could tell me why ... as a Christian ... that I should care?

Way back in one of the first posts in this thread a question was made as to why we as Christians should care about the final events. As long as we have given our hearts to the Lord maybe we should not be concerned. It's a fair question.

This may be a little late, but I thought an EGW quote might help:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Our time for work is limited, and God calls us as ministers and people to be minutemen. Teachers as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves must come to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty. There are many who do not understand the prophecies relating to these days, and they must be enlightened.--Letter 1, 1875. {Ev 237.1}

I completely agree. I would only add that another reason the Lord revealed the important events leading up to the Second Coming is in order for us not to be deceived by all the false teachings we hear today about the end-time. For instance, there are those who teach that certain periods of time must pass before Christ comes, but the Spirit of prophecy tells us that there are no more time prophecies beyond 1844.

Everyone needs to study these things-- the last day prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and the Spirit of prophecy-- for themselves individually, and not just depend on their pastor or others to tell them what to expect before Christ returns.

See especially the first three chapters of The Last-Day Events.

[John317]

There's no doubt that the enforcement of the National Sunday law in the United States is the sign or proof that national apostasy has taken place.

The National Sunday law will occur on a specific date when the legislature passes a law. The National Apostasy brings that point about and is certainly made clear when that point is reached. Maybe the clearest way to say it is that the enforcement of the National Sunday law is the sign that National Apostasy has already happened, whereas there is a period before this when the nation is apostatising.

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Lineman

I guess I am still confused. (Help me out please.)

If I understand correctly, once we have received the Mark of the Beast or the Seal of God there is no changing our minds, our probation has closed. Isn't that right? John317, you said that they are not the same, why?

Quote:

5. The Seal and the Mark (Isn’t this the same as the close of probation?) (No, not same.)

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I know that these are not the same exact event, but happen at the same time. One is the decision, the other is the result. Is that what you meant?

It basically comes down to the fact that not everyone is sealed or receives the Mark of the Beast at the same time. The close of human probation is not simply when it closes for some people but is that time beyond which there is no more probation for anyone. It occurs just before the time of Jacob's Trouble, at the beginning of which the four winds of strife are released. See 18 MR 177; Mar 266; TM 444-445; 7 BC 968

[Lineman]

One could conceivably accept the Mark then later repent and choose Christ. Remember that probation for the world closes AFTER probation for the church -- Ezek 9 they START marking the with the SEAL - starting with the Elders and the people of God. While that sealing is going on -- so also is evangelism.

Thanks Bob. I'm not sure I can agree with "then later repent and choose Christ" yet. It seems that once those who had not received the mark (God's seal, Ez. 9) had no way to add the mark themselves and were killed. I don't see any time to change after the marking was done. Am I missing something here?

I do understand that the close of probation is when Jesus leaves the Sanctuary and is not the same as receiving the mark. You're saying that once the angel passes over a person and they do not receive the seal/mark of God the angel might be able to come back and place that seal on him/her until Jesus leaves the sanctuary, right?

I guess anything is possible before Jesus leaves the sanctuary, so OK I guess I can accept what you are saying. Still, I thought that once we are "sealed" there is no change possible in our lives.

????

[phkrause]

talking about a National Sunday Law, check out the web site: www.Reg6.com.

pk

[John317]

Excellent site, pk. It's a great book to give out and a lot of people give credit to it as the instrument God used to convict them on the Sabbath truth. There are many good books out there on the subject and this is certainly one of them.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

One could conceivably accept the Mark then later repent and choose Christ. Remember that probation for the world closes AFTER probation for the church -- Ezek 9 they START marking the with the SEAL - starting with the Elders and the people of God. While that sealing is going on -- so also is evangelism.

Thanks Bob. I'm not sure I can agree with "then later repent and choose Christ" yet. It seems that once those who had not received the mark (God's seal, Ez. 9) had no way to add the mark themselves and were killed. I don't see any time to change after the marking was done. Am I missing something here?

The mark of Ezek 9 is the Seal of God not the mark of the beast. My argument is that the person who receives the mark of the beast might later -- under the influence of evangelism - change their mind, which means that sealing time and the giving out of the mark of the beast are not two sides of the same coin.

If the question above was "is the mark of Ezek 9 the same thing as the sealing of Rev 7" -- then I agree those two are the same.

I may have misunderstood the question.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

My mom sent me there newsletters and I saw they had a website so I got on there site. At first I was wondering if they were some crazies or what. A lot of what they say is basicily what EGW says.

pk

[John317]

And of course, we know that there will be millions who would like to change their minds and have the seal of God, but it will be too late.

Their repentance will be due to fear and not because of true repentance which comes only by the Holy Spirit. By that time, the Holy Spirit will have been withdrawn.

[John317]

Yes, that particular book essentially says the same thing that Ellen White and the book of Revelation teach about end-times. Of course the writer describes these events as he believes they will be fulfilled in the future.

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Lineman

Thanks Bob. I'm not sure I can agree with "then later repent and choose Christ" yet. It seems that once those who had not received the mark (God's seal' date=' Ez. 9) had no way to add the mark themselves and were killed. I don't see any time to change after the marking was done. Am I missing something here?[/quote']

The mark of Ezek 9 is the Seal of God not the mark of the beast. My argument is that the person who receives the mark of the beast might later -- under the influence of evangelism - change their mind, which means that sealing time and the giving out of the mark of the beast are not two sides of the same coin.

If the question above was "is the mark of Ezek 9 the same thing as the sealing of Rev 7" -- then I agree those two are the same.

I may have misunderstood the question.

Bob, I think you understood the question correctly. I was under the impression that when the "marking" angel passes over each person they will or will not receive the Seal of God. I had come to the conclusion that those who do not receive God's seal automatically received the Mark of the Beast (two sides of the same coin), but maybe that is not the case. Will there be people walking around that do not have either mark while others already have one or the other?

John317 (BTW, do you have a name I can use here, or shall I just call you John?), you seem to have something you wanted to add to this, but I do not understand what you are saying, sorry.

Trying to put this all in chronological order is not as easy as I had expected it to be. I am trying to sort out what Satan does and what God does, what part is visible and what is invisible to us. Super slow process and I am afraid that I am not even doing it right yet.

God, help me please! This is way to important to mess up.

[John317]

John317 (BTW, do you have a name I can use here, or shall I just call you John?), you seem to have something you wanted to add to this, but I do not understand what you are saying, sorry.

Yeah , just call me John. I was saying that after people receive the Mark of the Beast, they will want to change but won't be able to. The reason they want to change is not because of love for God but because of fear. It will be too late by then to change.

[Lineman]

I have to admit that I do not understand the 3-fold union between Church-State-Spiritualism. I understand Church (Rome) and State (Protistant USA), but what is the "Spiritualism" part? Who is that? It is across the "gulf", but what/who is it? Satan?

Quote:

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {Mar 187.5}

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Lineman

John317 (BTW, do you have a name I can use here, or shall I just call you John?), you seem to have something you wanted to add to this, but I do not understand what you are saying, sorry.

Yeah , just call me John. I was saying that after people receive the Mark of the Beast, they will want to change but won't be able to. The reason they want to change is not because of love for God but because of fear. It will be too late by then to change.

But you see the seal of God and the mark of the Beast as coming at different times?