The Shaking of Adventism

[Bravus]

Agreed. I deal with this by saying 'there is absolute truth, but we in our fallen condition do not have direct access to it'. It's back to Plato's shadows on the cave wall: there is a real object, but we're trying to deduce its properties from the shadows it casts. Our knowledge is limited, but that doesn't mean the object is not real.

[Gail]

Agreed. I deal with this by saying 'there is absolute truth, but we in our fallen condition do not have direct access to it'. It's back to Plato's shadows on the cave wall: there is a real object, but we're trying to deduce its properties from the shadows it casts. Our knowledge is limited, but that doesn't mean the object is not real.

The Bible puts it- "For we know in part and we prophecy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." 1 Cor.13:9,10

IOW we don't have all the information and won't until Jesus comes. I can live with that.

[Bravus]

Agreed, definitely. And to me this also implies humility on our part: I'm not confident enough that my shadow-interpretation is more accurate than your shadow-interpretation that I'm going to get into a fight about it. I'd rather learn from you.

[LifeHiscost]

Any comments on Paxton's book?

Yes! As you haven't read Preibe and yet labeled him, I'm tempted to label Paxton of whom I haven't read, but accepting your word in regard to him. Mind you I said tempted. It seems to me both are already labeled as sinners by a book that labels myself as well as all others with that same label. Perhaps if we spent the major part of our search for where God wishes us to be, in the book that He arranged to reveal where we ought to be, we wouldn't be so tempted to take our brothers to task for being so misguided, since we would see how far offbase we are as compared to the lovely Jesus Who has said,

"I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you." John 13:15 NIV

Nevertheless, carry on as you so choose.

"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Romans 14:5 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

It is true that finding a middle ground is hard as both sides are intolerant.

Not to mention that both sides believe themselves to be "in the middle of the road" so far as their personal beliefs of Truth are concerned. I find it also an uncomfortable feeling when I am only "tolerated" by those who are so quick to offer condescension as that is the best they have to offer to those they see as more ignorant than themselves.

"Love....is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances..."

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

"For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself." Galatians 6:3 AMP

Regards!

[Taylor]

Agreed lifhiscost.

[LifeHiscost]

Agreed. I deal with this by saying 'there is absolute truth, but we in our fallen condition do not have direct access to it'. It's back to Plato's shadows on the cave wall:....

Would it be fair to say, Bravus, that you just do not recognize Absolute Truth when you see It and therefore do not believe others have had the experience. As to not having direct access, surely you jest.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9 KJV

...who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,..." Hebrews 1:3 NKJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" John 20:29 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am....the Truth: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20 NKJV

Blessings!

[Bravus]

Have you seen Jesus? Himself, directly, in the flesh? No. You have the accounts of Him in the Bible. They are inspired, but can still not give the fullness of who He is. Can the text I read from you here convey the fullness of your self and personality? No - and you are not fully divine as well as human.

So to answer your question in black above: "It would be as fair to say that as it would be fair to say that those who claim to have direct access to Absolute Truth are wrong or deluded."

That is not to say that the Bible's record is incorrect, simply that it is incomplete.

[Taylor]

True....it may be incomplete as we will be learning new truths throughout eternity. However, the Bible is not inaccurate..it is truth. If you tell your wife you love her, it is the truth..it is accurate even if you can't spell out every single reason behind that love.

[LifeHiscost]

Still seems to me that there are (at least) two major schools in Adventism - call them the 'pure grace' and 'sanctification' schools to be confusing but as fair as possible - who see the shaking of Adventism as the vindication of their position and the elimination of those opposite.

Or, as I put it yesterday, "the problem with this church is those not like me".

And while I appreciate all the posts about it being all about being like Jesus, and agree, unfortunately that tends to boil down to the same thing, since their view of Jesus is modeled on their particular theological emphasis.

And that seems to me one reason why we are told, "sola Scriptura", or something like that. John the Baptist made the statement, "Behold, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world!" and I by faith beheld, was awestruck by what I saw and subsequently believed. Sight comes not just by the physical eye. Especially when it comes to the spiritual Kingdom of God our Father.

"An affirmation of him who is hearing sayings of God -- And knowing knowledge of the Most High; A vision of the Almighty he seeth..." Numbers 24:16 YLT

"Where there is no vision, the people perish"

Proverbs 29:18 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Right. A good book for a book burning ...

Thanks for the heads up.

Sounds like the beginning of another "dark ages". Or even the beginning of the "Third Reich". Are you sure that's where you want to go, Redwood?

Regards!

[Robert]

Have you read Face To Face With the Real Gospel, (2008), by Dennis E. Priebe?

False gospel.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Have you read Face To Face With the Real Gospel, (2008), by Dennis E. Priebe?

False gospel.

What does he say in that book? Have you studied it?

What exactly is false about it?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

False gospel. [/quote']

Have you [read] it?

Yes...it's junk!

Martin Weber wrote a book in the early 90's. I believe it was called, "Who's got the truth?" He compares 5 different gospels within Adventism. He ends up crediting Jack with the complete gospel!

Rob

[Taylor]

I don't think anyone has the complete gospel except the Bible.

[Taylor]

And I know you are not that some are not terribly fond of EGW...so I will leave her out of the discussion but the Bible does have the truth...maybe not "complete" as we will continue to learn even in haven but it is the most accurate picture.

[LifeHiscost]

And I know you are not that some are not terribly fond of EGW...so I will leave her out of the discussion but the Bible does have the truth...maybe not "complete" as we will continue to learn even in haven but it is the most accurate picture.

I like to look at it this way. The Bible is a fallible record since fallible instruments were chosen by our Father to keep the record. However that record reveals the only infallible God as the Word is opened to our spiritual eyesight by the infallible Holy Spirit. Praise God for finding a Way to reveal infallibility to the likes of frail fallible humankind.

Regards!

[Robert]

I don't think anyone has the complete gospel except the Bible.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"This gospel" - not "another gospel" - but "this gospel" will be presented to the whole world and then the end will come. Which gospel? The one Paul preached - the truth as it is "in Christ". Note I said "in Christ" not "in you". The latter is the fruit of the gospel.

But the gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the son of Man and the Son of God. Add anything else to this truth and you have perverted the gospel and belong to Babylon.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Have you [read'] it?

Quote:

Yes...it's junk!

Martin Weber wrote a book in the early 90's. I believe it was called, "Who's got the truth?" He compares 5 different gospels within Adventism. He ends up crediting Jack with the complete gospel!

OK, so let's throw the word "junk" around to describe various books, including Jack's, shall we? Now what good would that do? Better to talk reasonably and civilly about these books and ideas, and not just give labels to them. I think you'll agree, when you think about it, that mere labels do not help nor do they show or give understanding.

Would you care to give a brief analysis of why Priebe's book and thesis is so much "junk"?

I could dismiss Jack's book and Martin's book as "junk", too, but would that do justice to them or to the important issues we're talking about here?

[Woody]

Quote:

OK, so let's throw the word "junk" around to describe various books, including Jack's, shall we? Now what good would that do? Better to talk reasonably and civilly about these books and ideas, and not just give labels to them. I think you'll agree, when you think about it, that mere labels do not help nor do they show or give understanding.

Would you care to give a brief analysis of why Priebe's book and thesis is so much "junk"?

I could dismiss Jack's book and Martin's book as "junk", too, but would that do justice to them or to the important issues we're talking about here?

I think that 'junk' is a good descriptive word. It is an opinion. And I do not think that we need to be in the business of restricting the choice of words that might describe their opinion as long as it is not a banned word.

One could dismiss any authors words as junk. But usually when one has more than 10,000 posts .... the rest of us know that this would be the descriptive word that one would use ... before it is used. However ... said person should be free to use that word if he or she so chooses.

[Taylor]

I think that when the person posting the word "junk" says "junk" he may not mean anything mean about it....but the person who posted their "treasure" and hears it called "Junk" sees it quite differently. Hence inflamatory words would be best not used, in my opinion. I think it is possible do describe things by using words such as "From my personal study I have concluded that ________ book does not present the gospel in the light of Bible teachings, and hence I chose not to read any more of it." or something like that.

Of course...one can get so politically correct that one has no opinions at all, and that is boring as well.

So who knows what the solution is.

[Peace]

One man's junk is another man's treasure.

[Woody]

One man's junk is another man's treasure.

Good Point. It takes all kinds.

[guibox]

One of the main differences between the Reformers and Seventh-day Adventist is that the Reformers taught the historic doctrine of original sin and Adventists do not. We differ from the Reformers in our understanding of sin. For them, sin is primarily nature, whereas for historic Adventists (to be distinguished from "new theology"), sin is primarily a choice.

Unfortunately, the conservative side of our church has pretty much reduced sin to our acts and disobeying the law and Christ as our example instead of our substitute. They have made Christ just like is in every way so sinless perfection can be justified. ("Hey if Christ could do it, so can we!").

This is why we sound like we speak out of both sides of our mouth. We say that we are 'saved by grace' but in the end times, going to church on Sunday will cause us to be lost. We say we are 'saved by grace and not of works' but we must achieve sinless perfection without a mediator during the time of probation or we will be lost.

When you get down to the brass tacks of the matter, conservative SDAism believes that the sacrifice of Christ merely forgave our past sins and made us right with God. It set our 'sin clock' back to zero, so to speak. From that point on, salvation consists of sanctification through the power of the Spirit and the forgiveness of Christ as our safety net, when we may fall on our way to personal, Spirit motivated sinless perfection.

This is not the gospel. This is not the Reformation gospel. This is merely a variation of the gospel of the Catholic Church.

From what I've read so far, Paxton unbiasedly, shows it for what it is according to our claim that we are the continuance of the Reformation. He lets the facts speak for themselves. What it ends up sounding like is more a reversion to Catholic understanding of salvation, not a moving forward into understanding grace which was a foundation of the Reformation.

[John317]

Taylor, have you read Priebe's book? It's at the ABC in Riverside and at Loma Linda.

It shows that the real issue is the answer we give to the question, what is sin? If we say that it is primarily "nature," we will see sin as something we can't possibly cease to do. If, on the other hand, we see sin as "choice,"-- sin is the transgression of the law, or lawlessness-- then Ellen White's statements will make good Biblical sense. Otherwise, if we accept the view of "New Theology," we are likely to consider the following paragraph as "heresy" or "legalism":

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. GC 623