The Shaking of Adventism

[Woody]

[LifeHiscost]

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One would first have to have a basic understanding and belief in the 'need' to be saved.

This is why it is my contention that Christianity creates the very thing one needs to be saved from. It comes and tells people they are evil by nature and uses shame to create a "need" for salvation.

It is a myth that is used to "save" people and extract their talents, their means, and their lives to perpetrate the myth further. It may provide a fear based motivation for being ethical, but this motivation is a poor substitute for love.

It would appear, cardw, that you must be living in seclusion somewhere, where murder, mayhem, pillaging, slaughter and destruction are either nonexistent or very minimal, in order not to be able to see clearly that the one instruction faithfully followed by any and all conscious of the effects of same atrocities,

wouldn't be wonderfully delivered by believing the One Who gave those instructions. Since that is true, then to believe the One Who gave such instruction, would appear very wise indeed. Then the one who refuses to believe might appear, and I'll let you finish that thought.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6 KJV

"For God so loved the world, that he gave....."

John 3:16 KJV

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17 KJV

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." 1 John 4:7 KJV

Merry Christmas!

[LifeHiscost]

[LifeHiscost]

This quickly descends into complex vague and mystical "explanations" that only the "elect" get.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

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Yes! Even the angels of heaven are awed by the sheer genius of His plan.

Well, I'm glad THEY understand it. It doesn't do us much good. So far, all I have seen is a plan you have made up.

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It will be a theme that the redeemed will continue to study throughout eternity.

That's nice, but it doesn't really help us to understand it now. How just is it to require us to make a choice to choose a plan so complex it will take eternity to understand? It sounds like the current state of health insurance. LOL

In one respect you are right, cardw. Even bonafide Christians can sometimes make it more confusing than our Father ever intended it to be. Most of us are still learning also so we'd appreciate a little slack.

"Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3 NASB

Regards!

[Robert]

"God destroys no man" (EGW) Please, no scare tactics.

Rob

[phkrause]

Good posts taylor & john. Not that God is human, but everybody does compare our Heavenly Father to there earthly father. How many times have we heard those words "I hate my father and God must be just like him". We hear that all the time. Its sad but its reality. We need to show others that our Heavenly father is nothing like our earthly father.

pk

[cardw]

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It would appear, cardw, that you must be living in seclusion somewhere, where murder, mayhem, pillaging, slaughter and destruction are either nonexistent or very minimal, in order not to be able to see clearly that the one instruction faithfully followed by any and all conscious of the effects of same atrocities, wouldn't be wonderfully delivered by believing the One Who gave those instructions.

In fact we live in the most peaceful time in earth's history. By far, a higher percentage of earth's people have a quality of life that, for the most part, is free from violence, than in any time within the known history of the planet.

And this is, in large part, due to the lessening power of religion on national affairs. The highest periods of violence in earth's history have been done in the name of Christianity. You were far more likely to have a peaceful life under Pagan Rome than Christian Rome.

And you were far more likely to have a peaceful life under Pagan Rome than in any period of ancient Jewish history where most offenses carried a death penalty.

[cardw]

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n one respect you are right, cardw. Even bonafide Christians can sometimes make it more confusing than our Father ever intended it to be. Most of us are still learning also so we'd appreciate a little slack.

Well, I would cut you some slack if you didn't teach that the consequences of not believing what you believe was death. Your belief doesn't cut anyone any slack.

The point is, no one seems to be able to reduce the plan of salvation to something simple. Many of you claim that its simple, but don't produce anything that is simple.

The crazy thing is that some of you seem to think that it makes sense to claim that its simple and yet complex at the same time. That is simply double think.

You statement that you are still learning should at least be evidence that it is not simple considering the years of study you have put into it so far.

The point of it being simple, is that it DOESN'T require years of study to understand.

Simple would be something like this.

Do you want to go to heaven? Yes or No?

Answer: Yes

OK, you're in.

[cardw]

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Even atheists understand they are sinners, violating moral standards. They may not use the word, but they know they do things that are morally wrong.

I think you are misrepresenting atheists. They would not use the term sinner, but the term, unreasonable.

As an agnostic, which to Christians is atheist lite, I consider compassion to have a rational basis, as well as something that is desirable to have in one's life because it provides a deep pleasurable connection with other people. I don't need a god to tell me that or a Bible text to justify it.

Most people who do sinful things are short sighted. Most criminals that I have known are either not very bright or not very wise. So, to me, intelligence and education can go a long way to provide a more compassionate society. We can see that within studies on atheists. They tend to be higher educated. They tend to have a much lower crime rate than their religious counter parts. And violence is even lower. It would appear that a rational approach to life's problems does provide a more "moral" behavior pattern. This would run counter to the idea that humans have a tendency to do evil. I have not found most people wanting to do evil as individuals. I would say humans have a tendency to fear, but that may have a very good basis in humanity's evolution and survival.

When evil acts do occur they tend to be motivated out of some form of fear and when people are afraid they tend to do more evil acts. And many times people are afraid because they are poorly informed. This is one reason that I believe education in the ability to reason and education in the advantages of a compassionate life can reduce fear.

Christianity runs on fear to convince others to join its ranks. No matter how "nice" its put or how many charitable things Christians do in the world, the basis of Christian belief is a fear of eternal damnation. This over rides any and all talk of love within the context of Christian faith. It essentially translates to love or else, which is totally counter productive to actual love.

[Woody]

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The point is, no one seems to be able to reduce the plan of salvation to something simple. Many of you claim that its simple, but don't produce anything that is simple.

If you are seeking simple ... the best example of that that we have is the thief on the cross. Granted ... some would love to complicate it. But if you simply read the Bible and don't read other things into it ... then you will have your simple

Hold onto it dearly and firmly ... because the Wolves in Sheeps clothing ... are going to be after you.

[cardw]

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If you are seeking simple ... the best example of that that we have is the thief on the cross.

And what is simple about the thief on the cross?

I doubt if you can find agreement among Christians on how the thief found salvation, what he did to get salvation, and why he was saved?

And I wouldn't say that the Bible is all that clear on these questions, otherwise I don't think we would have all the disagreement, including proof texts.

[John317]

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Even atheists understand they are sinners, violating moral standards. They may not use the word, but they know they do things that are morally wrong.

I think you are misrepresenting atheists. They would not use the term sinner, but the term, unreasonable.

It doesn't matter what word you use. The concept remains the same. It has to do with not being morally what you should be. Even an atheist knows there are moral standards and that he fails to meet those standards. He denies that the moral standards originate with God, of course, because he claims not to believe in God's existence. But yet he believes in the moral standards, and he believes that he and other people ought to live up to those standards in some way, to one degree or another. He believes in what "ought to be." He believes in "justice" and in "right." He wants someone to make things right. In short, he really does believe in morality. Sin is the violation of that morality. Where does that idea come from?

I used to be in a political organization that was militantly atheistic. One morning when we were on our way to a convention in Chicago, we had an auto accident, and a friend next to me got his back broken. When I ran over to him, the first thing out of his mouth was, "You think God's trying to punish us for not believing in Him?" He repeated this several times. I assured him that God wouldn't do that.

Where did that idea come from? That shows that my friend really did believe in God and that he felt somewhat guilty about something related to belief in God.

[phkrause]

For me at least, it is that simple. I'd say yes to going to heaven. But if I am a murder, like Hitler, etc., do I really believe that I am going to be there? I do believe that many make it very difficult. Doesn't the Bible and Jesus say it very simply to believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved? And don't you think that if you were to asked anyone "Do you want to go to heaven?" that they would say NO! People or those that claim to believe in Jesus need to at least act that way. Not just say they do. Wasn't the reason that the apostles and disciples were being called christians due to the fact that they did the things and followed in his footsteps. At least after Jesus left and than sent the Holy Spirit, that the apostles really got it. According to a few minsters and/or pastors it's easier to be saved than it is to be lost. That you really have to work hard at being lost.

pk

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: cardw

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Even atheists understand they are sinners, violating moral standards. They may not use the word, but they know they do things that are morally wrong.

I think you are misrepresenting atheists. They would not use the term sinner, but the term, unreasonable.

It doesn't matter what word you use. The concept remains the same. It has to do with not being morally what you should be. Even an atheist knows there are moral standards and that he fails to meet those standards. He denies that the moral standards originate with God, of course, because he claims not to believe in God's existence. But yet he believes in the moral standards, and he believes that he and other people ought to live up to those standards in some way, to one degree or another. He believes in what "ought to be." He believes in "justice" and in "right." He wants someone to make things right. In short, he really does believe in morality. Sin is the violation of that morality. Where does that idea come from?

I used to be in a political organization that was militantly atheistic. One morning when we were on our way to a convention in Chicago, we had an auto accident, and a friend next to me got his back broken. When I ran over to him, the first thing out of his mouth was, "You think God's trying to punishing us for not believing in Him?" He repeated this several times. I assured him that God wouldn't do that.

Where did that idea come from? That shows that my friend really did believe in God and that he felt somewhat guilty about something related to belief in God.

I think that in their most serious moments people do realize that there is some type of "power out there" or "a God" or at least something outside of themselves. Your story illustrates what I have heard or experienced myself many times. The beautiful thing is that God loves people, even athiest even if they don't want to be loved by him or recognize that he exists.

[cardw]

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I used to be in a political organization that was militantly atheistic. One morning when we were on our way to a convention in Chicago, we had an auto accident, and a friend next to me got his back broken. When I ran over to him, the first thing out of his mouth was, "You think God's trying to punish us for not believing in Him?" He repeated this several times. I assured him that God wouldn't do that.

Where did that idea come from? That shows that my friend really did believe in God and that he felt somewhat guilty about something related to belief in God.

He obviously was not an atheist and was a liar if he claimed to be one. You can't generalize all "atheists" by this one story.

And it does matter what words you use. You don't have the right to redefine what other people mean. When I say that I don't believe in god as described in the Bible, I mean exactly that.

And when I say that I base my ethics on compassion and reason, I mean exactly that. That is quite different than basing my ethics on what someone else has decided is right or wrong.

My ethics are internal. Bible based ethics are external. Totally different. It is dishonest to redefine what other people mean because you can't read minds and even if you could, you still could not determine motivation.

Life is not simple. It is complicated, no matter how much you would like it to be simple.

[cardw]

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But if I am a murder, like Hitler, etc., do I really believe that I am going to be there?

Hitler, much like the crusaders in their murderous rampage, thought they were doing God's will. So I believe that Hitler, at some point in his life, thought he was blessed by God. I could ask you the same question about a Crusader.

I don't believe that Hitler was evil per se. I think he was ignorant, devoid of compassion toward the Jews, misinformed, a bigot, a control freak, and fearful. He admired Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutheren Church, and basically carried out the program suggested by Martin Luther for the Jews. In this regard I believe he thought he was doing the right thing.

He could not have carried out his program without help. He had learned how to use fear and ego to motivate people. He captured the German national resentment toward Europe and the outcome of WWI and turned that into a national religion of pride.

This is a far more complex issue than sin, sinners, and the so called evil nature of man.

[guibox]

And what pray tell, has the last 10 pages have had anything to do with 'The Shaking of Adventism'?

Perhaps we should get back on track or shut down the thread and open another on this subject you are discussing now.

[Gerr]

Good idea, so I'll start one.

[Lineman]

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My ethics are internal. Bible based ethics are external.

Are you saying that if you write down your ethics your own ethics become external? The ethics found in the Bible are just that, Someone's ethics written out. None of us needs to reinvent the wheel everytime someone dies, do we? Why can't we just learn from Someone who knows? Seems that we can save ourselves lots of headache and such if we just listen and learn.

God does not expect us to just learn this stuff by rote. He wants them to become a part of who we are and what we stand for. Bible based ethics are as logical as they come. Check it out for yourself.

[cardw]

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Are you saying that if you write down your ethics your own ethics become external?

No, my ethics are part of who I am.

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The ethics found in the Bible are just that, Someone's ethics written out. None of us needs to reinvent the wheel everytime someone dies, do we? Why can't we just learn from Someone who knows?

Well, the problem is that whoever wrote portions of the Bible didn't have a very advanced ethic system. And we need to revise many of the ethics found in the Bible. Particularly ethics related to women and slavery.

Even the 10 commandments don't have a very advanced ethical view. Lets take the first two. These, supposedly, are the 2 most important ethical principles given by the god of the Bible.

The first commandment states that one should have no other gods before this god and following the 2nd commandment we are given the reason...

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For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me

This god is so jealous that he isn't satisfied with revenge against his original disloyal humans, but he needs to visit iniquity on the generations following up to the third and forth.

This is not advanced ethics. This is childish ethics.

Now the 2nd commandment, the 2nd most important ethical principle, is basically, thou shalt not do any sculpture. One could almost come up with anything else and they would have a superior principle.

For example, thou shalt not abuse children would have a far superior ethical basis than no sculpture. I think we could survive quite well with a lot of sculpture.

And, again, this god is so jealous that if anyone makes a sculpture and/or bows down to it, he is going to visit iniquity to the third and forth generation.

That is why ethics need to be internal and based on reason, not authority. Particularly authority as immature as this god.

[Robert]

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For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me

This god is so jealous that he isn't satisfied with revenge against his original disloyal humans, but he needs to visit iniquity on the generations following up to the third and forth.

"The ministry of death, written and engraved on stones...the ministry of condemnation." 2 Cor 3:8,9

[Lineman]

Hi cardw,

You wrote:

I consider compassion to have a rational basis...

[cardw]

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Focusing on an idol will just cause problems for you and many generations to come. Focusing on me will bring a blessing to thousands.

This is quite a re-write. This is not what it says. You have to pick and choose to make this god loving. What it does say is that God is so jealous that HE WILL BE "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." This is not a rational basis, but a revengeful basis. Rational would at least limit the iniquity to the person doing the hating. This certainly is not a loving motivation.

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I'm interested in becoming like my loving God. I want my target, my role model, to be the highest it can possibly be. Why settle for anything less?

If I am to try and be like this god then I should bring iniquity on all those who hate me, including their children, grandchildren, and great grand children.

And if I am to be loyal to this god then I should bring iniquity to anyone who hates him, including their children, grandchildren, and great grand children.

This is hardly based on turn the other cheek.

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It use to bother me when I read about God being "jealous" until I realized that He was not being jealous for Himself, but for your happiness and mine.

And what text do you base this on? I haven't found it. You have to severely distort the text to make it loving. Lets look how others in the OT interpret what this jealousy means...

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Then Zimri, who commanded half of the royal chariots, made plans to kill him. One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa's reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and he did not leave a single male child. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu. This happened because of the sins of Baasha and his son Elah and because of all the sins they led Israel to commit, arousing the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, with their idols. (1 Kings 16:9-13 NLT)

Note that Zimri, just like his god, killed even the distant relatives and friends.

Jealousy is based on ego, not love. Love doesn't take things personally, its too wise for that. This is not a wise god.

Here are a few "rational" examples of what god means by bringing iniquity to his enemies.

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"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

If there are no survivors to tell what happened, how is anyone going to know its a warning from god? And if there are no survivors, who is left to even listen to these mysterious "warnings?"

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"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

This god isn't simply satisfied with the people, but he needs to kill all the animals, even the fish and the birds, but he loves you.

See how absurd this is!!

[Taylor]

Too bad you don't know my Jesus Richard...cuz I know if you met him you would love him and not think that the Bible is irrelevant or unethical or whatever.