The Shaking of Adventism

[cardw]

Quote:

But you don't think you need to be saved ... so why the discussion?

The discussion is not for me.

[Woody]

I don't see how it can do anyone else any good since they don't believe as you believe.

[Taylor]

Quote:

Why would one be concerned with this if he doesn't believe there is a need to be saved. Why would you care if it was simple or complex?

Because this system of belief creates a lot of burdens on believers who, because of the complexity of this myth, never know if they are saved.

It makes the basis of one's life fear.

Just reading all the double-think within this thread alone should convince one of the manipulatory nature of this system of belief.

Oh my...well from someone who has experienced it first hand, and who knows thousands of others who have also, trust me, Christianity is not a burden it is freedome, it is having peace even in the midst of storms, it is wonderful. When you get to know what God is really like, you can absolutely trust that if you want with all your heart to be saved, then he will make sure you are saved. (He never forces anyone, but he delights to save). I am so sorry that you think christianity is a burden, because it is such a joy I truely wish you could experience it!

[Taylor]

Quote:

When it is rightly explained people who are not Christians can "get it".

Evidently no one knows how to do this.

Quote:

Salvation may come with "feeling" but it is way deeper than that. It is the assurance of getting to know a God you can completely trust, knowing he will stop at nothing to save you, because you know Him personally well enough to have that unshakable knowledge. It is nice if it comes with a feeling but just likie love isn't always a feeling neither is salvation.

I have not found this to be true at all, neither in history, nor in personal experience. These are extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence. If this evidence is not a feeling, then what it is it?

This quickly descends into complex vague and mystical "explanations" that only the "elect" get.

Sorry but I completely disagree. I agree that you have have never experienced or known anyone who has, but I have seen thousands of non-christians "get it" and be so eternally happy that they "got it". I have seen "ignorant" or "uneducated" people as well as incredibly intelligent people with double doctorates "get it". But it does require choosing to trust and choosing to believe that God is real, that he loves us unconditionally, that he wants more than anything to have us in heaven with him, and that he wants to walk through life with us here on this earth.

There are many evidences of God in the universe, from nature, to the impossible life that was changed by God for the better, to peace in the middle of the storm, to feelings, to even miracles. And yes I have seen miracles that defy any other explanation and no I am not a Benny Hinn nor do I hang out with people like him. God is amazing. I am sorry you have never glimpsed that. Maybe you have had some very heavy experience in your past that has made your life rough, I don't know, but God is real. I know he created you, that he loves you unconditionally and is absolutely crazy about you. I have never met you but I know that I want to meet you on day in heaven.

I see FAR too much evidence of our incredible God to not believe or trust in him.

[Gerr]

Quote:

One would first have to have a basic understanding and belief in the 'need' to be saved.

This is why it is my contention that Christianity creates the very thing one needs to be saved from. It comes and tells people they are evil by nature and uses shame to create a "need" for salvation.

It is a myth that is used to "save" people and extract their talents, their means, and their lives to perpetrate the myth further. It may provide a fear based motivation for being ethical, but this motivation is a poor substitute for love.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us." 1 Jn 4:18-20 ESV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Salvation is at once as simple as arithmetic, and at the same time as complex as calculus.

What????

Now you're just making stuff up. This makes no sense all, much like the whole complex theology and mental gymnastics of salvation and gaining God's approval. Its not all that unlike early religions that required other types of sacrifices to gain their god's approval.

Yes! Even the angels of heaven are awed by the sheer genius of His plan.

Quote:

[color:red]10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (1 Pe 1:10-12). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

It will be a theme that the redeemed will continue to study throughout eternity.

[cardw]

Quote:

Yes! Even the angels of heaven are awed by the sheer genius of His plan.

Well, I'm glad THEY understand it. It doesn't do us much good. So far, all I have seen is a plan you have made up.

Quote:

It will be a theme that the redeemed will continue to study throughout eternity.

That's nice, but it doesn't really help us to understand it now. How just is it to require us to make a choice to choose a plan so complex it will take eternity to understand? It sounds like the current state of health insurance. LOL

[cardw]

Quote:

I see FAR too much evidence of our incredible God to not believe or trust in him.

Most of these grand views of the world attributed to god tend to rely more on poetry and grandeur than actual evidence. I don't deny that people have transforming experiences, but these happen within many different religious and non religious contexts so I find no evidence that this type of experience is the exclusive domain of the Biblical god. I have had these types of experiences myself and I think they are useful, but not factual. I would certainly not hold anyone else's "salvation" hostage to having these types of experiences.

Because they happen in many contexts and for many different "reasons" I don't think these can be used as evidence for the god of the Bible.

[cardw]

Quote:

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us." 1 Jn 4:18-20 ESV

If this is true, then why does god threaten everyone with death if they don't bow down to him? That seems rather counter productive to casting out fear.

[John317]

Quote:

That's nice, but it doesn't really help us to understand it now. How just is it to require us to make a choice to choose a plan so complex it will take eternity to understand?

Gerry didn't say it would take an eternity to understand salvation. He said the redeemed will study it throughout eternity. It would be like Einstein being able to study physics throughout eternity. He would never stop learning. Doesn't mean he wouldn't understand it. He understood physics while on earth, but throughout eternity he would continue learning more if he is saved and able to ask the Creator questions and watch Him create a universe.

If you enjoy learning, you won't want to miss eternity. There will be no end to learning, including learning about God's plan of redemption.

Salvation is simple as ABC, yet it is also extremely profound if you want to keep studying it and learning more.

Basically salvation is simply that God loves humanity so much that He gave His one and only Son so that everyone who believes in Him will not die but have everlasting life.

It's so simple a little child can understand it, yet it is so complex that even a lifetime of study by a person with a doctorate in theology can't hope to exhaust everything related to the topic.

To experience salvation, it is not necessary to understand all the complexities. It is only necessary to love Jesus Christ for what He did and is doing now, and to keep putting your faith in Him.

[John317]

Quote:

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us." 1 Jn 4:18-20 ESV

If this is true, then why does god threaten everyone with death if they don't bow down to him? That seems rather counter productive to casting out fear.

A parent must do the same thing with a small child at times in order to protect him. When I was teaching my children not to touch the stove and not to run out into the streets, I had to make threats. I had to tell them that if they do certain things, a car could kill them. Once when my son ran out into the street and almost got hit, I had to teach him that I was serious about my instructions.

God sometimes has to make threats to get our attention about the dire consequences of sin. He takes the risk that many will misunderstand. A parent takes the same risk. Just like a parent, God hopes his children will grow up and become mature so they don't need threats.

What would you do if you saw your child just about ready to die? Wouldn't you yell and scream to get his attention so he won't die? That is what God is doing. He knows what will happen if we go on trying to live apart from Him.

[John317]

Biblical Christianity actually sees human nature realistically. It doesn't view human beings as having nothing positive about it but it does understand that human beings have a tendency toward sin. The Bible teaches that it is easier for people to do wrong than to do right. I believe history proves it. Christianity tells people the truth about their need. It wouldn't do any good to tell people that they are not sinners. Even atheists understand they are sinners, violating moral standards. They may not use the word, but they know they do things that are morally wrong.

[Robert]

When I was teaching my children not to touch the stove and not to run out into the streets, I had to make threats. I had to tell them that if they do certain things, it could kill them. Once when my son ran out into the street and almost got hit, I had to teach him that I was serious about my instructions.

How did you teach him not to do that? Did you kill him? So I understand Cardw's point - although I don't buy God is anything like our human parents.

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matt 7:11

You see too many folks are afraid of God. "I better not get out of line or God will strike me down." And we call that love? No! It's like you telling your son, "Don't go out in the street, son." And he replies, "why not dad?" And you say, "Because I love, but if you don't listen to me I'll kill you." You know what I would do with such a dad? I go take kung fu and crack his head open. Then I would say, "Dad, I love you!"

Rob

[Woody]

Good Illustration. Very Funny. But it does have a point. Something to consider.

[Robert]

Just like a parent, God hopes his children will grow up and become mature so they don't need threats.

[John317]

Your argument, then, is with God's word. The Bible itself shows many similarities between God and human parents. When it refers to God as a "father" and to Israel as God's "son," it is doing exactly that. There are many such examples.

[Robert]

Your argument, then, is with God's word. The Bible itself shows many similarities between God and human parents. When it refers to God as a "father" and to Israel as God's "son," it is doing exactly that. There are many such examples.

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matt 7:11

Evil doesn't mean serial killer...it means self-centered, selfish, egocentric, self-loving, self-seeking. The best of earthly fathers pale in comparison to God. You can't compare the two. Take for example Romans 5:

7 Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [His enemies], Christ died [the 2nd death] for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood [His life laid down in death], how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

When I was teaching my children not to touch the stove and not to run out into the streets, I had to make threats. I had to tell them that if they do certain things, a car could kill them. Once when my son ran out into the street and almost got hit, I had to teach him that I was serious about my instructions.

How did you teach him not to do that? Did you kill him? So I understand Cardw's point - although I don't buy God is anything like our human parents.

In Jesus' parables, God is often compared to a human father.

So there must be some similarities between God and a human parent or else the Bible wouldn't make the comparison.

The Bible also compares God to a husband, and Israel and the church to God's wife.

It isn't necessary for God to be EXACTLY LIKE human parents in order for there to be lessons we can learn from making the comparison.

[Gerr]

13 As ra father shows compassion to his children,

so the Lord shows compassion pto those who fear him.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ps 103:13). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

yBut now, O Lord, you are our Father;

zwe are the clay, and you are our potter;

awe are all the work of your hand.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Is 64:8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

fPray then like this:

g“Our Father in heaven,

hhallowed be iyour name.1

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 6:9). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

15 For gyou did not receive hthe spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of iadoption as sons, by whom we cry, j“Abba! Father!”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 8:15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Your argument, then, is with God's word. The Bible itself shows many similarities between God and human parents. When it refers to God as a "father" and to Israel as God's "son," it is doing exactly that. There are many such examples.

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matt 7:11

Evil doesn't mean serial killer...it means self-centered, selfish, egocentric, self-loving, self-seeking. The best of earthly fathers pale in comparison to God. You can't compare the two. ...

Jesus, who is God, made the comparisons in a number of parables, showing that a comparison between God and a human father is appropriate. There's no reason to think that comparing them means that God is like humans in every way.

[John317]

Good examples, and those, of course, are only some of the instances where God is compared to a human parent. It's a common Biblical simile and metaphor.

[Robert]

In Jesus' parables, God is often compared to a human father.

Yes, God uses the language, but what you fail to understand is that God is nothing like our human Fathers.

Is 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In Jesus' parables, God is often compared to a human father.

Yes, God uses the language, but what you fail to understand is that God is nothing like our human Fathers.

Is 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There must be some kind of similarities between God and human fathers or else the Bible would not contain the comparison. No one is saying that God is like a human father in every way. Jesus made the parallel between God and human fathers because there is truth in the comparison.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: John317

In Jesus' parables, God is often compared to a human father.

Yes, God uses the language, but what you fail to understand is that God is nothing like our human Fathers.

Is 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

That depends on what kind of father you had. My father is the godliest man I know. People, behind his back call him a saint. And no he isn't perfect but he is so kind, and gentle that, although he is an inperfect reflection of my father in heaven, he sure does give me a glimpse of what he is like. I realize I have been blessed as not all dads are like that.

[Taylor]

Don't even compare sinful, human fathers with God. There's no comparison...none...zip!

Quote:

What would you do if you saw your child just about ready to die? Wouldn't you yell and scream to get his attention so he won't die? That is what God is doing. He knows what will happen if we go on trying to live apart from Him. [/quote']

What you are doing is placing, sinful human attributes onto a Holy God. Shame on you! You are bring God down to your level. This is perverting the gospel....This is lifting up human nature.

Rob [/quote

Taylor says: God is called our heavenly father...because an earthly father should be a reflection of our father in heaven. He should be kind, forgiving, encouraging, loving, firm, honest, steadfast in character etc. I think it is a beautiful illustration of how much we can trust our heavenly father. However, perhaps your father or fathers you knew are/were abusive, cruel, mean-spirited, unforgiving, etc..and if that is the case I truely do feel for you.