LifeHiscost Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism. How then can you tell who is really saved and who is not? Then you must think the Apostle John is a legalist? who said: Quote: [color:red]Whoever says "I know Him" but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in Him, but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him: whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in wich He walked." Or Jesus a legalist? who said: Quote: IF you love Me you will keep my commandments. Jn 14:15. Not everyone who says to Me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Mt 7:21 What is the proverb? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. How do others know you really love your wife? Certainly not by carousing with someone other than your wife! Our obedience IS NEVER THE BASIS OF SALVATION, IT IS THE EVIDENCE of having been saved! Born again people do not continue to live like the old man. Gerry Good show!! "Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. " John 12:35 NKJV "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12 KJV "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost Not saying we cannot be saved in our ignorance' date=' but I find it very uncomfortable joining a couple of those thoughts together, with just a slight tweak to make apparent what they seem to be saying. My life is not perfect and will never be. ((My life is not perfect and I am willing that it never be.)) I am a sinner saved by HIS blood. And that is the way I will remain to be. ((I am a sinner saved by HIS blood. And that is the way I am willing to remain.)) [/quote'] I'm assuming then that you are not willing to let your sinful condition remain? Of course that would have to be by invitation of Jesus to perform what it is impossible for us to accomplish. "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5 KJV "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26 KJV Even victory over sin. Regards! Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
cardw Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 You know Calculus would be easier to explain than this long winded, torturous version of the gospel that is supposedly simple enough for anyone to understand. At least Calculus has proofs so you can check your work. This is a major reason I have come to believe that all religious doctrine and belief are man made. Unless everyone is going to be saved, salvation is only for the intelligent who have an extremely well developed self control. And I would say that even the most intelligent would have a difficult time making sense out of the mess you guys are presenting. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Quote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Taylor Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Amen it is simple. Jesus died for me. He changes lives, and he will save me if I trust my whole life to Him. It is that simple, but we do make it complicated at times. Quote
melvin mccarty Posted December 7, 2008 Posted December 7, 2008 Perhaps Paul was the first and most wordy 'complicator'. Quote
cardw Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64. What does this mean??? I understand ABCs and if Salvation is that simple then why don't I understand it and why apparently, according to Ellen White, doesn't anyone else? Either its simple or its complicated. Simple = easy to understand Complicated = "we don't understand it." Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: Amen it is simple. Jesus died for me. He changes lives, and he will save me if I trust my whole life to Him. It is that simple, but we do make it complicated at times. This statement is essentially meaningless. This is what many Christians do. They present something as if everyone knows what it means. What does it mean to trust my whole life to Him? You will get almost numberless variations of what this means. This is not simple. This is a simple response in which it basically repeats a cliche' and presents it as if it has substance. Not buying it... Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Taylor Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Ya but that is ok. The people I was responding to are Christians so that is no problem. I would not talk this way to someone who was not a christian. As evidenced from many previous posts, you have decided long ago that the Bible is a collection of fairy tales etc and not relevant to your life...it would probably even sound annoying. To a christian it is beautiful and very very meaningful...and for those who haven't heard the gospel..I LOVE sharing it with them and in whatever simple or sophisticated way that they need. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64. What does this mean??? I understand ABCs and if Salvation is that simple then why don't I understand it and why apparently, according to Ellen White, doesn't anyone else? Either its simple or its complicated. Simple = easy to understand Complicated = "we don't understand it." "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31 KJV "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
cardw Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: Quote: Amen it is simple. Jesus died for me. He changes lives, and he will save me if I trust my whole life to Him. It is that simple, but we do make it complicated at times. This statement is essentially meaningless. This is what many Christians do. They present something as if everyone knows what it means. What does it mean to trust my whole life to Him? You will get almost numberless variations of what this means. This is not simple. This is a simple response in which it basically repeats a cliche' and presents it as if it has substance. Ya but that is ok. The people I was responding to are Christians so that is no problem. I would not talk this way to someone who was not a christian. As evidenced from many previous posts, you have decided long ago that the Bible is a collection of fairy tales etc and not relevant to your life...it would probably even sound annoying. To a christian it is beautiful and very very meaningful...and for those who haven't heard the gospel..I LOVE sharing it with them and in whatever simple or sophisticated way that they need. Well, this beautiful thing, that is apparently only understood by Christians, is essential to one's eternal life within the Christian myth. I would think a little more clarity would be essential to call this simple to understand. It is impossible to determine if one is saved, unless a warm fuzzy feeling about Jesus is all that is required. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Originally Posted By: cardw Quote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64. What does this mean??? I understand ABCs and if Salvation is that simple then why don't I understand it and why apparently, according to Ellen White, doesn't anyone else? Either its simple or its complicated. Simple = easy to understand Complicated = "we don't understand it." "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31 KJV "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV This makes it crystal clear? What does this mean? We have two requirements or two alternatives. Believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ and Believe IN the name of the only begotten Son of God. Again we are going to get an almost infinite number of explanations of what this means. So, still not simple, and still not clear. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: It is impossible to determine if one is saved, unless a warm fuzzy feeling about Jesus is all that is required. One would first have to have a basic understanding and belief in the 'need' to be saved. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Taylor Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Quote: Quote: Amen it is simple. Jesus died for me. He changes lives, and he will save me if I trust my whole life to Him. It is that simple, but we do make it complicated at times. This statement is essentially meaningless. This is what many Christians do. They present something as if everyone knows what it means. What does it mean to trust my whole life to Him? You will get almost numberless variations of what this means. This is not simple. This is a simple response in which it basically repeats a cliche' and presents it as if it has substance. Originally Posted By: Taylor Ya but that is ok. The people I was responding to are Christians so that is no problem. I would not talk this way to someone who was not a christian. As evidenced from many previous posts, you have decided long ago that the Bible is a collection of fairy tales etc and not relevant to your life...it would probably even sound annoying. To a christian it is beautiful and very very meaningful...and for those who haven't heard the gospel..I LOVE sharing it with them and in whatever simple or sophisticated way that they need. Well, this beautiful thing, that is apparently only understood by Christians, is essential to one's eternal life within the Christian myth. I would think a little more clarity would be essential to call this simple to understand. It is impossible to determine if one is saved, unless a warm fuzzy feeling about Jesus is all that is required. When it is rightly explained people who are not Christians can "get it". Again, my post was for Christians on this forum so it didn't need that "explanation". Salvation may come with "feeling" but it is way deeper than that. It is the assurance of getting to know a God you can completely trust, knowing he will stop at nothing to save you, because you know Him personally well enough to have that unshakable knowledge. It is nice if it comes with a feeling but just likie love isn't always a feeling neither is salvation. However, someone who thinks that it is all a myth would probably not understand how one can come to trust a God like that, that much. But millions have done so and have found an anchor for their lives that nothing can shake. Quote
Taylor Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31 KJV "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV [/quote'] This makes it crystal clear? What does this mean? We have two requirements or two alternatives. Believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ and Believe IN the name of the only begotten Son of God. Again we are going to get an almost infinite number of explanations of what this means. So, still not simple, and still not clear. Not really. I can believe in someone and trust their good name at the same time. It simply means I know them well enough that I can trust them, no matter what they say or do, because I know they have my best interest at heart. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 9, 2008 Moderators Posted December 9, 2008 You know Calculus would be easier to explain than this long winded, torturous version of the gospel that is supposedly simple enough for anyone to understand. At least Calculus has proofs so you can check your work. This is a major reason I have come to believe that all religious doctrine and belief are man made. Unless everyone is going to be saved, salvation is only for the intelligent who have an extremely well developed self control. And I would say that even the most intelligent would have a difficult time making sense out of the mess you guys are presenting. Salvation is at once as simple as arithmetic, and at the same time as complex as calculus. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discered." 1 Cor 2:14 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18 ESV. Quote
cardw Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: One would first have to have a basic understanding and belief in the 'need' to be saved. This is why it is my contention that Christianity creates the very thing one needs to be saved from. It comes and tells people they are evil by nature and uses shame to create a "need" for salvation. It is a myth that is used to "save" people and extract their talents, their means, and their lives to perpetrate the myth further. It may provide a fear based motivation for being ethical, but this motivation is a poor substitute for love. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: Not really. I can believe in someone and trust their good name at the same time. It simply means I know them well enough that I can trust them, no matter what they say or do, because I know they have my best interest at heart. Never-the-less this doesn't simplify the means of salvation presented by Christianity. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: When it is rightly explained people who are not Christians can "get it". Evidently no one knows how to do this. Quote: Salvation may come with "feeling" but it is way deeper than that. It is the assurance of getting to know a God you can completely trust, knowing he will stop at nothing to save you, because you know Him personally well enough to have that unshakable knowledge. It is nice if it comes with a feeling but just likie love isn't always a feeling neither is salvation. I have not found this to be true at all, neither in history, nor in personal experience. These are extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence. If this evidence is not a feeling, then what it is it? This quickly descends into complex vague and mystical "explanations" that only the "elect" get. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: Salvation is at once as simple as arithmetic, and at the same time as complex as calculus. What???? Now you're just making stuff up. This makes no sense all, much like the whole complex theology and mental gymnastics of salvation and gaining God's approval. Its not all that unlike early religions that required other types of sacrifices to gain their god's approval. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64. What does this mean??? I understand ABCs and if Salvation is that simple then why don't I understand it and why apparently, according to Ellen White, doesn't anyone else? Either its simple or its complicated. Simple = easy to understand Complicated = "we don't understand it." Why would one be concerned with this if he doesn't believe there is a need to be saved. Why would you care if it was simple or complex? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
cardw Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Quote: Why would one be concerned with this if he doesn't believe there is a need to be saved. Why would you care if it was simple or complex? Because this system of belief creates a lot of burdens on believers who, because of the complexity of this myth, never know if they are saved. It makes the basis of one's life fear. Just reading all the double-think within this thread alone should convince one of the manipulatory nature of this system of belief. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 But you don't think you need to be saved ... so why the discussion? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.