The Shaking of Adventism

[Robert]

The 10 Commandments are a very simple guide, or moral guide I should say, to follow. Like keeping the Sabbath or not committing murder, honoring your parents, etc.

The letter might be simple, but to keep it's spirit is not so simple. In other words the law is much bigger then 10 simple rules.

Have you ever been angry at someone? Maybe they ripped you off or maybe they destroyed your reputation. Maybe they caused you to lose a good job. Maybe they threatened your immediate family, but nonetheless you became angry. Did you know that's breaking the spirit of the law?

Matt 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to a people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment [death].' 22 But I [Jesus] tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment [death].

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law.The Review and Herald, August 28, 1894, paragraph 4

Totally false! Christ primarily came to save us from "the curse of the law". He came to legally save us from "under the law". Without this truth sanctification is meaningless.

Giving just half of the gospel sandwich again?

Quote:

[color:red]The REASON the Son of God appeared was to DESTROY the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil..." 1 Jn 3:8-10 ESV

Gerry

[Robert]

Giving just half of the gospel sandwich again?

What Christ does in us is not the gospel. It's the fruit of accepting the gospel. Your failure to differentiate the two has led you into a lifetime of legalism!

[Robert]

The REASON the Son of God appeared was to DESTROY the works of the devil.

While Christian living is the fruit of the gospel, none of us are living a life without sin totally. If we were 1 John 1:8 would be untrue. So did God destroy the works of the devil?

If He did you wouldn't be sinning and you would be in heaven. Then what's the primary focus? Romans 8:1

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

In Christ our humanity has been set free from both "the law of sin" (iniquity) and it's sentence, "death". That's "in Christ".

Yes, you experience Christ as you learn to better walk in the Spirit or as you learn to obey the gospel.

Rob

[phkrause]

Yes agreed, but that's why you ask for forgiveness. It is simple and simple to come to the Lord and ask for forgiveness everyday. Because we sin everyday. I don't look at it as the letter of the law. I look at it as "If you love me you will keep my Commandments", per Jesus.

pk

[guibox]

by guibox "They have made Christ just like is in every way so sinless perfection can be justified. ("Hey if Christ could do it, so can we!").

I have met only one such person that you speak of in all of my SDA life. Are you setting up a strawman to kick around?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes. Hi Norman.

Personally ... I am saved by the perfect life of Christ. My life is not perfect and will never be. I am a sinner saved by HIS blood. And that is the way I will remain to be.

Not saying we cannot be saved in our ignorance, but I find it very uncomfortable joining a couple of those thoughts together, with just a slight

tweak to make apparent what they seem to be saying.

My life is not perfect and will never be. ((My life is not perfect and I am willing that it never be.))

I am a sinner saved by HIS blood. And that is the way I will remain to be.

((I am a sinner saved by HIS blood. And that is the way I am willing to remain.))

There does seem to be some difference of opinion about the application and timing of these next two Scriptures but I am willing to accept them as promises at the hand of Jesus, to be worked out according to His timing and His will. How about you?

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 NKJV

Those who are alive and remain at the coming of Jesus, if they are reveling in the freedom to enjoy sin at His coming, it seems inconsistent that Jesus would take something away from them they are happy to keep.

"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."Matthew 5:29 NKJV

"Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Luke 13:1-5 NASB

Regards!

Wow! You certainly do take a lot of liberties.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Giving just half of the gospel sandwich again?

What Christ does in us is not the gospel. It's the fruit of accepting the gospel. Your failure to differentiate the two has led you into a lifetime of legalism!

Now we are getting to the bottom of this.

[Taylor]

Obedience out of love and gratitude is never legalism. Obedience in order to twist God's arm into saving us is legalism. Just my 2 cents. Not arguing with anyone.

[Woody]

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

[Gerr]

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

How then can you tell who is really saved and who is not? Then you must think the Apostle John is a legalist? who said:

Quote:

[color:red]

Whoever says "I know Him" but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in Him, but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him: whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in wich He walked."

Or Jesus a legalist? who said:

Quote:

IF you love Me you will keep my commandments. Jn 14:15.

Not everyone who says to Me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Mt 7:21

What is the proverb? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. How do others know you really love your wife? Certainly not by carousing with someone other than your wife!

Our obedience IS NEVER THE BASIS OF SALVATION, IT IS THE EVIDENCE of having been saved! Born again people do not continue to live like the old man.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Giving just half of the gospel sandwich again?

What Christ does in us is not the gospel. It's the fruit of accepting the gospel. Your failure to differentiate the two has led you into a lifetime of legalism!

When Jesus destroys the works of the devil in my life, that is not good news? THAT is incredible!!!

And your failure to see that this is good news will forever consign you to giving just half of the gospel!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

"Life in Christ Jesus", what does it mean to you?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

by guibox "They have made Christ just like is in every way so sinless perfection can be justified. ("Hey if Christ could do it, so can we!").

I have met only one such person that you speak of in all of my SDA life. Are you setting up a strawman to kick around?

Then you must live in Southern California because when all is stripped away, this is basically what is believed and I have met many,many,many. Gerry, EVERY person I have encountered who believes we must achieve sinless acts and thoughts by probation refers back to the example of Christ. 'He was sinful exactly like us and overcame...therefore we can to. After all, it wouldn't be fair if Christ had an advantange'. This is view is semi-Pelagian and is held by many an SDA.

With all the Fordites in S. Cal, are you kidding?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What Christ does in us is not the gospel. It's the fruit of accepting the gospel. Your failure to differentiate the two has led you into a lifetime of legalism!

When Jesus destroys the works of the devil in my life' date=' that is not good news? THAT is incredible!!! And your failure to see that this is good news will forever consign you to giving just half of the gospel!!!

Gerry [/quote']

Are you sinning? Yes? That's bad news! I'm glad you are sinning less...that's there's less self-seeking...less self-love, but the law doesn't say, "You do your best and I'll make up the difference."

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Let's look at the context. Is John talking about all sin or is he writing of a particular sin? 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous....15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

[Robert]

... not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous....15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Why did Cain murder his brother? What does the Bible mean by his works were evil? Let's look at the context:

Gen 4:3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

Why? Cain was a self-righteous legalist!

How so? He brought the fruit of his own making as a sacrifice before God instead of the lamb representing Christ. He presented his own works before God in a spirit of self-justification while Abel saw his need of Christ's life and death. Abel saw himself as a sinner, but Cain did not. Hence he trusted in himself. The result? Murder.

Rob

[Taylor]

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

There are many text that show that God does expect obedience. Will the saved be perfect, no but will their heart WANT to be obedient...the direction of their life be one of obedience (even if they only lived for a few seconds after knowing God's will or lived life-time).

Obedience is a priviledge not a burden. So the saved will want to follow God (or their concept of god...if they haven't known about the true God) to the best of their ability becuase of their great love for God.

Will they be perfect, no, will they deserve salvation, no, can they buy salvation, no it is a free gift of God. But God does expect obedience..he just doesn't expect us to do it in our own power, NOR as a means of salvation nor ever to be good enough to deserve salvation. That is not legalism...it is beautiful grace and God's grace in the life does change the life.

What we CAN'T do is to judge others, but we must encourage people to follow all of God's word as it is such a blessing and out of gratitude to a God who loves us enough to save us despite ourselves. The saved don't ask, "what little can I learn, what little can I do, what little can I change" instead they say "my whole life, my lifestyle, my outlook on life, my time, my resources, everything belongs to God."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Why? Cain was a self-righteous legalist!

How so? He brought the fruit of his own making as a sacrifice before God instead of the lamb representing Christ. He presented his own works before God in a spirit of self-justification while Abel saw his need of Christ's life and death. Abel saw himself as a sinner, but Cain did not. Hence he trusted in himself. The result? Murder.

Rob

Anyway you cut it or call it, Abel believed and showed his belief by obeying what God required, offering a blood sacrifice, while Cain, whether you call it self-righteousness legalism, showed his unbelief in disobeying what God required.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

There are many text that show that God does expect obedience. Will the saved be perfect, no but will their heart WANT to be obedient...the direction of their life be one of obedience (even if they only lived for a few seconds after knowing God's will or lived life-time).

Obedience is a priviledge not a burden. So the saved will want to follow God (or their concept of god...if they haven't known about the true God) to the best of their ability becuase of their great love for God.

Will they be perfect, no, will they deserve salvation, no, can they buy salvation, no it is a free gift of God. But God does expect obedience..he just doesn't expect us to do it in our own power, NOR as a means of salvation nor ever to be good enough to deserve salvation. That is not legalism...it is beautiful grace and God's grace in the life does change the life.

What we CAN'T do is to judge others, but we must encourage people to follow all of God's word as it is such a blessing and out of gratitude to a God who loves us enough to save us despite ourselves. The saved don't ask, "what little can I learn, what little can I do, what little can I change" instead they say "my whole life, my lifestyle, my outlook on life, my time, my resources, everything belongs to God."

I could not have said it any better!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

When Jesus destroys the works of the devil in my life' date=' that is not good news? THAT is incredible!!! And your failure to see that this is good news will forever consign you to giving just half of the gospel!!!

Gerry [/quote']

Quote:

Are you sinning? Yes? That's bad news! I'm glad you are sinning less...that's there's less self-seeking...less self-love, but the law doesn't say, "You do your best and I'll make up the difference."

Well? If the Apostle John says, "[color:red]The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil,"

is that not GOOD NEWS? Is it not GOOD NEWS that Jesus is coming again? Is it not GOOD NEWS that sinners will not live and suffer forever ad infinitum?

You are limiting the GOOD NEWS to your own narrow understanding. The WHOLE PLAN OF SALVATION IS GOOD NEWS!!!

Now, as for sin in the believer's life. The Bible explicitly says that "No one born of God makes a PRACTICE of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:9 ESV The NCV renders v6 thus: "So anyone who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. ANYONE WHO GOES ON SINNING HAS NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD CHRIST AND HAS NEVER KNOWN HIM.

Did you get that? When the believer UNDERSTANDS Christ and His POWER to destroy the works of the devil in his life, he will cease to go on CHOOSING a life of sin. Will he make mistakes? Will he have lapses? As long as we are in this mortal body, the anwer is an unequivocal YES! But willful, deliberate rebellious act? NEVER!!!

You correctly point out that the law does not give credit for imperfect obedience, but have you heard of GRACE? Yes, GRACE!!! "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.............who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1,4 ESV. "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:14 ESV.

Now, is Paul speaking out of 2 sides of his mouth? As he would say, "Certainly not! God forbid!" But he had already made it clear in his introduction to he letter to the Romans in 1:5, that the whole purpose of grace Is: "to lead people of all nations TO BELIEVE AND obey," NCV.

So it is clear that sinners are justified through a belief/faith/trust that not only hears, but is sincere, heart-felt, and leads to a life-changing kind of faith. That is what the Bible means for the "righteous to live by faith."

Gerry

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

There are many text that show that God does expect obedience. Will the saved be perfect, no but will their heart WANT to be obedient...the direction of their life be one of obedience (even if they only lived for a few seconds after knowing God's will or lived life-time).

Obedience is a priviledge not a burden. So the saved will want to follow God (or their concept of god...if they haven't known about the true God) to the best of their ability becuase of their great love for God.

Will they be perfect, no, will they deserve salvation, no, can they buy salvation, no it is a free gift of God. But God does expect obedience..he just doesn't expect us to do it in our own power, NOR as a means of salvation nor ever to be good enough to deserve salvation. That is not legalism...it is beautiful grace and God's grace in the life does change the life.

What we CAN'T do is to judge others, but we must encourage people to follow all of God's word as it is such a blessing and out of gratitude to a God who loves us enough to save us despite ourselves. The saved don't ask, "what little can I learn, what little can I do, what little can I change" instead they say "my whole life, my lifestyle, my outlook on life, my time, my resources, everything belongs to God."

Thank you so much Taylor. A breath of fresh air. I could not have said it nearly as well as you have.

[Taylor]

Well Thanks Red...I think you could have said it just as well...I don't have any special abilities with saying things.... I am just trying to explain what is dear to my heart. :)

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Giving just half of the gospel sandwich again?

What Christ does in us is not the gospel. It's the fruit of accepting the gospel. Your failure to differentiate the two has led you into a lifetime of legalism!

I would say It's led him into a life of rest and safety.

"In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?" Job 1:1,8,9 NIV

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:21 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Obedience out of love and gratitude is never legalism. Obedience in order to twist God's arm into saving us is legalism.

Since the first statement is true and the second statement is impossible, that pretty much does away with tilting at windmills. Of course that might only be understood by those who find joy in following the instructions of their Master, Lord and Savior.

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

To one who think that their obedience is the test of salvation ... obedience becomes legalism.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

Matt 12:32,33 KJV

Regards!