Headin to GYC tomorrow...

[there buster]

Quote:

We have seen the alternative at bedsides, funerals and other places. We thus prefer the consecration that we see here among these youthful Bible workers.

It is common among many sincere Christians to misread the churchaholic shame addiction as devotion, obsession as consecration. I see the children of such 'consecration' in rehabilitation centers, in despair, and too many burned to ashes in places like Waco. Or, like the woman who was "the most devoted church member" anyone had ever seen, whose children rose up and murdered her. The strange thing was, everyone respected her consecration, but no one liked her. And when I dared-- long before her untimely death-- to point out that her 'consecration' was in fact deeply pathological, I was declared a Philistine. Even though, frankly, no one was too surprised that her children strangled her to death. Nearly everybody understood the impulse. And we didn't have to put up with her 24/7.

I say this with sadness. Some dear friends of mine, quite devout, in Ohio of all places. Good people, who cannot understand why their children want nothing to do with the church. I assure you, it has nothing to do with lack of family worship or giving in to 'worldly music.' These friends are far too strict.

Or a prominent speaker/author, who cannot understand why his children have stumbled. The list is long, and tragic.

[Woody]

So Ichabod .... how about YOU getting up that better alternative to GyC. How about talking to some of your General Conference friends that you hob nob with. I hope to go to Atlanta for the GC session in 2010. Maybe we can get together and get this going.

[there buster]

WEll, I don't hobnob with GC folk. I don't think I actually know any. However, there is both concern and movement on that. I'll PM you.

This last summer, I was speaking at the same campmeeting as the GYC guru. The local pastor assigned to me was concerned, since this was the first time there had been two meetings for the same age group, that we might not have very many. In fact, the contrast was rather to our advantage. Both the local pastor and the audiences were very responsive, and delighted to have an alternative perspective. It is experiences such as that to which I referred.

My daughter and her fiancee were at GYC in Chattanooga a couple of years ago. They saw busloads of kids sent by their churches, often openly sleeping in the meetings. I noticed Skeete mentioned similar things this year in one of his talks.

With two or three exceptions, they were quite repelled by much of what they heard there.

I listened to Ron Du Preez' talk on Music Sat. nite. Unfortunately, he never actually mentioned any scriptural principles pertaining specifically to music, although he kept promising to do so. A lot of generalities about 'holy and profane,' but no criteria for distinguishing between the two. About the only musical term he used was 'syncopation,' which I gather he intended to say was bad. But then he praised Bach--whom I love-- but I've performed enough Bach to know he used a lot of syncopation. So it was a disappointment. A lot of innuendo, little substance.

[Woody]

Hey ... I had no idea. I am out of the loop but would love to get in it and assist in any way I can. This is a good cause. Much needed. Thanks

[Peace]

Redwood, what did you hear from the pulpit that concerned you? Was it because the young people were asked to turn off their cell phones and stop the text messaging during the sermon? Or was it because the young people were asked to surrender 100% of their lives to God so that they may prepare themselves to be citizens of the 51st state? Oh, maybe it was the part where the kids were admonished to spend more time in Bible study and prayer, to spend more time with God.

I've been hearing some good reports from the young people. And they are looking forward to the next GYC.

Peace

[Woody]

For one thing ... I would not call them 'kids'.

And of course you would only hear good reports. See the above post from Ichabod.

[Woody]

What concerned me?

Legalism

And of course that is popular to the simple minded and immature. But as we grow in Christ ... we realize that we just can't do it. Then we turn it over to God.

[Woody]

The following is a good way to teach our young minds about what we should do:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. "

John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

Romans 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."

1 Thess. 4:9 " But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. "

1 Pet. 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:"

1 John 3:11 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. "

1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

1 John 4:7-12 "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

2 John 1:5 "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. "

[delta]

LOVE "WOWS" ANOTHER.......

Hip......hip......hooorrrraaaaeeeyyyy....! I got it, I got it..

Let's now persecute those who involved in GYC since they have unclean "churchaholic shame addiction" spirit according to dear Ichabod but never say the same pattern to the Adventists young people that addicted hours after hours just to watch the boring Football or baseball games.....

So we don't need to pray to God to eliminate GYC movement. We just need that GYC as our prey. Ready?

LOVE WON ANOTHER.

I think people concerned about Noah because he asked people to come to the ark, and call him crazy and stupid.

[there buster]

Quote:

Let's now persecute those who involved in GYC since they have unclean "churchaholic shame addiction" spirit according to dear Ichabod but never say the same pattern to the Adventists young people that addicted hours after hours just to watch the boring Football or baseball games.....

Coupla points.

1. Persecution is a tool of the devil. Why would anyone suggest using it? Least of all, on those already burdened with a sense of shame? They get plenty of being told what is wrong with them, and what is wrong with what they do--like watching football or baseball.

2. Why should anyone even hint at saying "the same pattern" to those who are already alienated from the church?

3. Ellen White said the great motive powers of the soul are "Faith, Hope, and Love." That's how to lead, rather than drive.

Carol Cannon said most of what needs to be said in her book "Never Good Enough." For every young person lured by the pleasures of sin, I see a hundred driven there by shame.

[Taylor]

Quote:

We have seen the alternative at bedsides, funerals and other places. We thus prefer the consecration that we see here among these youthful Bible workers.

It is common among many sincere Christians to misread the churchaholic shame addiction as devotion, obsession as consecration. I see the children of such 'consecration' in rehabilitation centers, in despair, and too many burned to ashes in places like Waco. Or, like the woman who was "the most devoted church member" anyone had ever seen, whose children rose up and murdered her. The strange thing was, everyone respected her consecration, but no one liked her. And when I dared-- long before her untimely death-- to point out that her 'consecration' was in fact deeply pathological, I was declared a Philistine. Even though, frankly, no one was too surprised that her children strangled her to death. Nearly everybody understood the impulse. And we didn't have to put up with her 24/7.

I say this with sadness. Some dear friends of mine, quite devout, in Ohio of all places. Good people, who cannot understand why their children want nothing to do with the church. I assure you, it has nothing to do with lack of family worship or giving in to 'worldly music.' These friends are far too strict.

Or a prominent speaker/author, who cannot understand why his children have stumbled. The list is long, and tragic.

I have seen kids come from very strict homes who have left the church but I have seen others who are vibrant SDAs and are not in rebellion nor are weird. It has much less to do with the "strictness" and much more with the "attitude". The Isrealites had much stricter rules than most conservative SDAs but they also had success stories like Daniel. We can do what is "right" without being "legalistic" and we can "love" without condoning what is "wrong". I truely believe it because I have seen a lot of first hand evidence of this. The ones where the kids leave the church there was a lack of love, logic, or concern for the individual. (Now I am not advocating that people have to wear dresses to the floor, or never cut their beards, or something like that just in case you think I am advocating starting a colony of people who study the Bible 12 hours and day and live off donations or soemething like that. lol )

[Taylor]

WEll, I don't hobnob with GC folk. I don't think I actually know any. However, there is both concern and movement on that. I'll PM you.

This last summer, I was speaking at the same campmeeting as the GYC guru. The local pastor assigned to me was concerned, since this was the first time there had been two meetings for the same age group, that we might not have very many. In fact, the contrast was rather to our advantage. Both the local pastor and the audiences were very responsive, and delighted to have an alternative perspective. It is experiences such as that to which I referred.

My daughter and her fiancee were at GYC in Chattanooga a couple of years ago. They saw busloads of kids sent by their churches, often openly sleeping in the meetings. I noticed Skeete mentioned similar things this year in one of his talks.

With two or three exceptions, they were quite repelled by much of what they heard there.

I listened to Ron Du Preez' talk on Music Sat. nite. Unfortunately, he never actually mentioned any scriptural principles pertaining specifically to music, although he kept promising to do so. A lot of generalities about 'holy and profane,' but no criteria for distinguishing between the two. About the only musical term he used was 'syncopation,' which I gather he intended to say was bad. But then he praised Bach--whom I love-- but I've performed enough Bach to know he used a lot of syncopation. So it was a disappointment. A lot of innuendo, little substance.

I undertand that a seminar was given by a pervious rock/jazz drummer who is now a pastor. He talked about syncopation and said it was wrong to say that all syncopation is wrong, that even Bach and other composers used syncopation. Instead he presented some scientic studies done by people who are not Christians (and some who were but non-SDA) about the effects of certain combonations of rhythms etc. People that I know who attended his seminar said it was easy to understand, well documented, and fun. (He had a trapset on which he would demonstrate things etc.).

So far as kids sleeping....that can happen in any gathering, but when the cameras spanned I saw FAR less people sleeping at GYC than I have seen at my own home church. Maybe the key was that their "churches made them come" and maybe the kids now "want to come" and are not "made" to come...I don't know...

[Taylor]

What concerned me?

Legalism

And of course that is popular to the simple minded and immature. But as we grow in Christ ... we realize that we just can't do it. Then we turn it over to God.

In what I heard, it was never said that one can get victory over any sin on their own...but through Christ...and that is the good news of grace. That is allowing God to work in our lives. But it does require the effort of saying "God you can have every part of me" and then actively choosing to continually give it over to God so he can work in our lives. And we must work in cooperation with God....not to obtain salvation but to choose to continually "choose" God's way. (And I am not picking on you as I am sure you would agree with this anyway...just adding my 2 cents in.)

[there buster]

Quote:

undertand that a seminar was given by a pervious rock/jazz drummer who is now a pastor. He talked about syncopation and said it was wrong to say that all syncopation is wrong, that even Bach and other composers used syncopation. Instead he presented some scientic studies done by people who are not Christians (and some who were but non-SDA) about the effects of certain combonations of rhythms etc.

There are two different things I wrote about. ONe was the impressions of my daughter and her now husband. Their sense was very much that churches had bused in a lot of kids who didn't want to be there. And they were appalled by a speaker who said, "Marriage is not for this generation. You shouldn't get married, just go into evangelism." And then he made some jokes about his wife.

The other is the podcast of Ron DuPreez on music. Anyone can listen to it. But although it promised Biblical principals, no text was mentioned until 37 minutes into the hour, and it was about "clean and unclean things," not music. What was lacking was precisely how to determine the difference between the two. He led off with a song he had written, but did not explain why it was musically good or bad, and how changing it would have made it go from good to bad.

I was originally a music major, and I directed my first church choir at seventeen. I used to more or less share his position, but my arguments were wrong. I listened hoping to hear something new, something that would require contemplation to deal with. There was nothing even remotely related to music. Just a wink and a nod about, you know, that music.

[there buster]

Quote:

I have seen kids come from very strict homes who have left the church but I have seen others who are vibrant SDAs and are not in rebellion nor are weird. It has much less to do with the "strictness" and much more with the "attitude".

Actually, I agree with you completely. If you ask our (now grown) children, we were very strict. Truthfully, some of this strictness on our part was wrong. But we weren't directive in the sense of dictating every detail of their lives. We set reasonable boundaries, and allowed freedom within that.

Notably, one are where I was too directive was concerning music.

[Taylor]

Quote:

undertand that a seminar was given by a pervious rock/jazz drummer who is now a pastor. He talked about syncopation and said it was wrong to say that all syncopation is wrong, that even Bach and other composers used syncopation. Instead he presented some scientic studies done by people who are not Christians (and some who were but non-SDA) about the effects of certain combonations of rhythms etc.

There are two different things I wrote about. ONe was the impressions of my daughter and her now husband. Their sense was very much that churches had bused in a lot of kids who didn't want to be there. And they were appalled by a speaker who said, "Marriage is not for this generation. You shouldn't get married, just go into evangelism." And then he made some jokes about his wife.

The other is the podcast of Ron DuPreez on music. Anyone can listen to it. But although it promised Biblical principals, no text was mentioned until 37 minutes into the hour, and it was about "clean and unclean things," not music. What was lacking was precisely how to determine the difference between the two. He led off with a song he had written, but did not explain why it was musically good or bad, and how changing it would have made it go from good to bad.

I was originally a music major, and I directed my first church choir at seventeen. I used to more or less share his position, but my arguments were wrong. I listened hoping to hear something new, something that would require contemplation to deal with. There was nothing even remotely related to music. Just a wink and a nod about, you know, that music.

Yes I heard about that speaker who talked disparingly about marriage at the GYC in Atlanta, but it is also my understanding that GYC leadership took him to task on it , as they weren't pleased with it either. I wasn't at the GYC but friends of mine were and there were many who talked to that speaker about his inappropriate statement. Unforunately people sometimes talk and think later...he didn't mean it to come across exactly as he said it but he was definately out of line on that. I have heard preachers say equally appalling things on both sides of the fence on many topics and later say "I didn't mean it to come across that way." and maybe they don't. But yes, people did take him to task on it.

The seminar given on music was given by someone using lots of backing not just "that other music" from what I understand...so that would have been helpful. People giving seminars on any topic need to be sure they have information to back it up, the Bible, EGW, but also reliable scientific evidence from non-Christian sources or at least from non-SDA sources as they would be more "unbiased".

I wouldn't be surprised if some churches took kids that didn't want to be there...that can happen. However, I think most are there because they want to be there. Contrary to public opinion that all the kids at a GYC session are from self-supporting backgrounds or homeschoolers, there are many who are university students of things such as law, sociology , medicine and every year there are non-SDA's as well such as Buddhists etc. I.E. I saw a lot of girls in jeans and t-shirts (not looking like "mennonite SDA's" , guys with dreadlocks or even "piercings" etc. Sure, the majority looked like nice Christian kids, and some were "strange looking" on both sides of the fence. Not that it matters...just my observation.

[there buster]

Quote:

The seminar given on music was given by someone using lots of backing not just "that other music" from what I understand...so that would have been helpful. People giving seminars on any topic need to be sure they have information to back it up, the Bible, EGW, but also reliable scientific evidence from non-Christian sources or at least from non-SDA sources as they would be more "unbiased".

We don't seem to communicating. I referenced the talk by Ron DuPreez that I listened to at Audioverse. This one I'm not relying on second-hand information. He does not give any criteria whatsoever that pertain to music, only vague references to "sacred and profane," etc.

Just listened to Karl Tsatalbasidis here.

Very disappointing. Much conflation, and superficial debunking.

From the Abolition of Man:

"Orbilius chooses for 'debunking' a silly bit of writing on horses, where these animals are praised as the 'willing servants' of the early colonists in Australia.6 . . . . Of Ruksh and Sleipnir and the weeping horses of Achilles and the war-horse in the Book of Job—nay even of Brer Rabbit and of Peter Rabbit—of man's prehistoric piety to 'our brother the ox'—of all that this semi-anthropomorphic treatment of beasts has meant in human history and of the literature where it finds noble or piquant expression—he has not a word to say.7 Even of the problems of animal psychology as they exist for science he says nothing. He contents himself with explaining that horses are not, secundum litteram, interested in colonial expansion.

This piece of information is really all that his pupils get from him. Why the composition before them is bad, when others that lie open to the same charge are good, they do not hear. Much less do they learn of the two classes of men who are, respectively, above and below the danger of such writing—the man who really knows horses and really loves them, not with anthropomorphic illusions, but with ordinate love, and the irredeemable urban blockhead to whom a horse is merely an old-fashioned means of transport. Some pleasure in their own ponies and dogs they will have lost; some incentive to cruelty or neglect they will have received; some pleasure in their own knowingness will have entered their minds. That is their day's lesson in English, though of English they have learned nothing. Another little portion of the human heritage has been quietly taken from them before they were old enough to understand. "

Why the composition before them is bad, when others that lie open to the same charge are good, they do not hear. . . . some pleasure in their own knowingness will have entered their minds.

[Taylor]

Quote:

The seminar given on music was given by someone using lots of backing not just "that other music" from what I understand...so that would have been helpful. People giving seminars on any topic need to be sure they have information to back it up, the Bible, EGW, but also reliable scientific evidence from non-Christian sources or at least from non-SDA sources as they would be more "unbiased".

We don't seem to communicating. I referenced the talk by Ron DuPreez that I listened to at Audioverse. This one I'm not relying on second-hand information. He does not give any criteria whatsoever that pertain to music, only vague references to "sacred and profane," etc.

Taylor says: No I understand you completely. I didn't think you were refering to something you had second hand information about nor did I think it was about this year's presentor. I knew you were referring to Ron DuPreez not this year's presentor.

Just listened to Karl Tsatalbasidis here.

Very disappointing. Much conflation, and superficial debunking.

Taylor: Well I don't know. My friends said he had ALOT of quotes that he put on the screen from secular scientists and news articles. That of course wouldn't be clear in an audio version...as to where his information came from, if he doesn't give all the references audibly.

.

[there buster]

Quote:

Well I don't know. My friends said he had ALOT of quotes that he put on the screen from secular scientists and news articles. That of course wouldn't be clear in an audio version...as to where his information came from, if he doesn't give all the references audibly.

Actually, it was quite clear when he put up the quotes. Talks about physiological changes, etc. However, he made logical leaps from what the science said to qualitative statements about music.

For example, he cited studies that indicate "Muscle coordination becomes synchronized with the basic beat." Uh huh. Not exactly news. Sea chanteys and work songs used that for centuries. But that has nothing to do with moral content. He implied it was a bad thing, but gave us no criterion or rationale for making that assessment.

He mentioned that Bach used syncopation, but then said that it was an anachronism to claim that Bach wrote rock music. Straw man. Nobody claimed Bach wrote rock music. But that leaves the question of whether syncopation is good or bad unaddressed, let alone answered.

Many of his statements are like that. They beg the question. They begin by assuming something is bad, throwing vaguely related evidence at it, and then concluding that it was indeed bad.

The guy was charming and humorous. He knows what he believes, but he was short on substance.

HIs basic formula was rock music = sex and drugs. Classical is good.

But read Ellen White on Wagner's operas.

Believe me, I would welcome solid substance about music. But there was none there.

Defined rock as "emphasizing weak beats," but never explained why that was linked to sexuality.

Mentioned syncopation, but never explained whether it is good or bad, and why it's OK for Bach but not for rock.

Never mentioned or even acknowledged cultural differences regarding music such as, what we call the minor mode communicates melancholy to Western audiences, but does not have that effect on Eastern audiences.

Did not address ancient Hebrew music or practices, although he did have some (to me) amusing notions about the music in Daniel 3.

[olger]

I am guessing that you are a generational Adventist, Ed. Am I mistaken?

Wagoner

[there buster]

Quote:

Am I mistaken?

If that's the way you're headed, probably.

[Taylor]

I am guessing that you are a generational Adventist, Ed. Am I mistaken?

Wagoner

If a generational SDA means you were born into the church, well that would be a whole lot of us and I don't see that as a problem...to me it is a priviledge.

[Woody]

I am guessing that you are a generational Adventist, Ed. Am I mistaken?

Wagoner

I hope we are not starting a class warfare here?? Are we??

[olger]

Just curious, and I agree for the most part. Yet I have observed a peculiar phenomenon over the last twenty years.

No need for people to get defensive.

Taylor, I appreciate your understanding and support for the GYC movement. Why people would spend ANY time at all disparaging it is something difficult to understand.

As to the Bridge, Ed. I have personally counseled several people who have been there. No more will be said except that had they found freedom there they wouldn't have sought it at our home.

regards

oG

[olger]

`lo red. Some of the finest Adventists are generational Adventists, and I love them.

However, it has been often observed that the Adventists most likely to be involved and disturbed by the unrest of the 1980’s, centering around the work of Walter Rea, the Brinsmead brothers, and Desmond ford were multiple generation members. Seldom first or even second generation Adventists. Evidently having a generational heritage subjects one to certain hazards of faith.

It was to this phenomenon that I spoke at the ATS meeting in Nashville, encouraging youth & adults alike to pick up the Adventist mantle on their own - not allowing a parent or heritage to place it around their shoulders. I became aware of this when many dear Advent people would say "I wish I had your experience" after hearing my testimony. After a year, my answer to them was quick. "You don't need my experience. We all need the same thing - the experience of Jesus in the Garden."

oG