Make an ugly woman your wife....

[GreatLakesGramma]

Robert, your logic is not biblical. It's not even logical. Brother, you are NOT a woman, so don't even TRY to understand what goes on in women's minds! I can tell you which women are likely to dress to draw attention to themselves - women with low self-esteem, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether they are naturally beautiful or not. And yes, I DO know what I am talking about. Been there, done that.

Paul tells women to dress so as not to draw attention to themselves because EVERY society from the beginning of time until now has treated women like lesser beings, of value only for the use of men. And the relative value of individual women to men has ALWAYS depended on their beauty. And even though our modern society CLAIMS that women are now equal to men, in this respect, nothing has really changed at all.

Furthermore, it is not WOMEN who set the standards of beauty for themselves. Do you think it was the Chinese women's idea to bind little girls' feet so tightly that they couldn't grow, so that women swayed when they walked? Do you think it was the African women's idea to put rings around their necks to stretch them out so long that if the rings were removed their necks would break, and they would die? Do you think it was women's idea that they should wear shoes with heels so high they would damage their hips and backs? Or corsets that would compress and damage their internal organs? Or that modern-day women's MANDATORY professional business more often than not would be nearly bare legs and uncomfortably high heels in the dead of winter? Considering that women have lower metabolisms than men, and thus less body heat to begin with, let me assure you this is NOT something women WANT!

It is MEN who impose this on women, and always has been! Women have gone along with it, because woman's greatest fear has ALWAYS been that she would not be able to find a husband. Because while man's identity has ALWAYS been connected with what he DOES, woman's identity has always been connected with her FAMILY. This is hard-wired into our brains before we're even born! Those who don't conform to these differences are not NORMAL, and everyone knows it even if most don't dare to say so, and many won't even admit it to themselves.

So get off this BEAUTIFUL WOMEN ARE INFERIOR TO UGLY WOMEN track. The problem Robert, is NOT Beautiful Women. The problem is the TYPE of beautiful women that YOU are attracted to. You don't even know why you are attracted to women that turn out to be the way they are. Very, very few people do. But the fact is that people somehow are able to find exactly the type of significant other that corresponds perfectly to their own emotional baggage. Victims and abusers, codependency addicts, and whatever other type of dysfunctional persons there are, somehow find each other as accurately as if we all wore huge signs labeling our dysfunctions.

So, as I said before, Robert, you need to get some serious counseling and deal with your issues, or the next woman you develop a relationship with is going to be just as self-centered as those of your past, even if you find the ugliest woman you can. That self-centeredness may not manifest itself in the same way you are used to, but sooner or later, you are going to find it, and it won't be any more pleasant than your past experiences.

Get counseling. Deal with your issues. And someday, you may find a woman who is beautiful through and through, like Bravus' wife and daughters.

[Robert]

I can tell you which women are likely to dress to draw attention to themselves - women with low self-esteem, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether they are naturally beautiful or not....

Here's the thing I've noticed about women: If a woman does something sinful, she has as excuse (low self-esteem, etc) . If a man does something wrong, well, he is a sick, perverted person. The Bible doesn't make this distinction.

[Beryl]

GreatLakesGramma, You are just SO spot-on. However, I note that Robert has just ignored your wisdom!

Beryl

[GreatLakesGramma]

Robert's attitude is really only hurting himself, Beryl, at least at this point. He's the one who'll suffer the most for it, though any woman he has a future relationship with will suffer as well. It's only by facing our own issues and dealing with them that we can have healthy relationships. I have faced my issues and dealt with them, and it isn't just me that is happier for it. My husband is much happier now, and my children were much, MUCH better off. My sons don't even remember me being verbally abusive. My daughter is older and does. Too bad their dad didn't deal with his issues until they grew up. His relationships with them are healing now though.

My mother is controlling and verbally abusive toward family members who live with her. Now that we no longer live with her, we each have a mostly good relationship with her, though I remain cautious of her manipulative tendencies. But she was not just this way with us kids, but was and still is to my dad. They have gotten counseling from time to time, but according to what my mom has told me about it, the counseling has always focused on what DAD was doing wrong. And he has been ready to admit his error and try to change. Mom is blind to her own faults toward him. So nothing really changes.

My best friend married and divorced 3 abusive, adulterous men. #2 was extremely dangerous, and a child molester as well. After #3, my friend was wise enough to realize that there was a problem with her, that she always chose the same kind of men. She got counseling and dealt with her issues. Husband number 4 is a wonderful, kind and loving man.

Robert can believe that I am excusing women and blaming men if he wants to. My previous post focused on women's thoughts and motivation because women are the target of his accusations,and because I am a woman and I know how women think. Men are just as much influenced in their relationships by societal influences, emotional scars and unconscious agendas as women, and I am just as quick to defend them when women criticize them. (I hate male-bashing jokes**, and if you were to tell me one, you would never make the same mistake again.) But I would never presume to attempt to explain anything about how a man thinks, not even if I consulted with my son first. I could never get understand the subject fully no matter how much I asked.

[**The same goes for blonde jokes, ethnic jokes, lawyer jokes, and any joke that insults an entire class of people.]

[Robert]

Robert's attitude is really only hurting himself, Beryl, at least at this point. He's the one who'll suffer the most for it, though any woman he has a future relationship with will suffer as well.

My attitude? Sounds like you have one yourself.

As to this woman I "texted" - she has said this many times before. I guess you would rather that I lie to her?

Here's the bottom line: You have no idea what this woman is like. I do...she is self-centered, but she is doing better. Honesty is better. I guess you would correct Jesus or Paul for their bluntness?

Rob

[Robert]

I note that Robert has just ignored your wisdom!

Beryl

I ignore ignorant people. She hasn't a clue!

[Gail]

LOL Rob, no matter who's right, if you like the company of women it might be worthwhile to listen to how they are interpreting you!

[Robert]

Paul tells women to dress so as not to draw attention to themselves because EVERY society from the beginning of time until now has treated women like lesser beings, of value only for the use of men.

[Robert]

Robert, Robert, Robert, come on now....That's no way to treat a Lady!!!

What lady? I think you are brown nosing to look good in front of certain women.

[Robert]

LOL Rob, no matter who's right, if you like the company of women it might be worthwhile to listen to how they are interpreting you!

I can't help she has communication issues. She is reading something into my posts that's not there. If you wish to point out my faults, well, I respect you Gail. Email me.

Rob

[GreatLakesGramma]

Robert, the last 2 posts I made had nothing whatsoever to do with the woman you texted. I am speaking in defense of the entire class of human beings (beautiful women) whom you are condemning as being worse than other people. That is the biggest rubbish in this thread.

[GreatLakesGramma]

And by the way, I did not anywhere say that ALL men are to blame for the health-destroying fashions that women have been subjected to through the ages, only that they were created by men. I do not blame entire classes of people for the actions of a few.

[Gail]

I can't help she has communication issues. She is reading something into my posts that's not there. If you wish to point out my faults, well, I respect you Gail. Email me.

No, I'm not pointing out faults at all on either side of the conversation. It was just a suggestion.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Neither do I excuse sin in women and blame it on men. I am not excusing anything. Just trying to explain to you what is behind the wrong thinking of so many women. I wouldn't presume to even guess at what is behind the wrong thinking of men. But we all engage in wrong thinking, every one of us, including me.

If the woman you texted has paid heed to your rebuke and is doing better, then good. You obviously did the right thing after all. With the little information you gave, it sure looked worse than it must have actually been. But you can't blame me for that. I wasn't the only one who thought so.

As for your attitude - from what you've said, every beautiful woman you've ever been involved with is self-centered. If everyone you get involved with has the same undesirable characteristics, then you need to look at yourself to find out why you keep picking the same type of woman that makes you so unhappy. If you look for an ugly woman just because you think she will be any different, you are going to be seriously disappointed.

I have never said that those particular women didn't have problems, or that their self-centeredness is not sin, just that you can't judge an entire group of people by the few. And as far as beautiful women having more of a temptation to exploit their looks, I have seen WAY too many ugly and/or fat girls and woman dressing, making themselves up, and flaunting their bodies in exactly the same way as beautiful woman, trying to exploit what they don't possess, and looking absolutely hideous in the process, to agree with that. Maybe you don't notice this, because these women/girls are so unattractive to you that you don't realize what they're doing. Try really looking at ALL the females around you when you're out in public sometime, especially the young ones who haven't yet acquired any sense.

Quote:

Paul tells Christian women not to dress for attention because it is feeding "the flesh". The essence of humanity's nature, what Paul terms "the law of sin", is iniquity. Iniquity primarily means to be bent-to-self. The Bible (and EGW) warns men that women, given over the flesh, use their looks to entice and destroy.

Of course it is feeding the flesh. But women would not be tempted to care about beauty if their value to men hadn't always depended on it. If something else made them attractive to men, since women's entire reason for existence is to be companions of men, and it is the greatest natural (and good) desire of every woman's heart, just as God said it would be in Genesis 3, they would have become obsessed with whatever other thing it was that made them desirable to men. Then Paul would have had no need to mention dress. It would have been something else.

I am sorry for the communication problems between you and me, but I guess it really can't be helped. Different people saying the same thing often mean totally different things, and misunderstandings are more common than most people realize. In my personal opinion, which could be totally wrong, a large share of marital and family hostilities and hurt feelings are due to misunderstandings because of differences in communication style. I am not angry with you and am sorry that the things I have said have given you that impression. Or that make you think I am bashing men. In fact, I'm sorry I said anything at all.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Nope. I was wrong. It isn't different communication styles. It's me. I just realized it. See guys, I'm a nerd. Very deep thinker, but socially inept. I put my foot in my mouth all the time - part of the reason that in person I am practically a recluse. See, when something like this thread gets my attention, I think about it for a LONG time. And it runs through a very long train of thought in my mind, then I get on here, and post some conclusions that might be a long way from what is already here. I might even have gotten way off from what the actual issue was in the beginning too, but I don't give you all that came in between - just what I came up with at the end. And you are left wondering where THAT came from!

Rob, you're absolutely right. I have gone beyond what you said, connected thoughts that you didn't express, thought they came from you, and dumped it all on you. I'm really sorry Robert. Embarrassed too. But this is the first time I ever realized I do this. I am going to go back to my hole now, pull the rock back over it, and think about this!

But just know this: everything I've said about women and what motivates them, and about lumping people together, and all that, I stand behind it. Also about working through issues that cause us to choose the same type of person who makes us unhappy again and again. If that shoe fits you, wear it. If not, ignore it. Whatever I've said about your attitudes, forget it. I don't know what's in your heart any more than you know what is in women's hearts.

[Bravus]

Nice work, Ma'am.

[cricket]

If something else made them attractive to men, since women's entire reason for existence is to be companions of men, and it is the greatest natural (and good) desire of every woman's heart, just as God said it would be in Genesis 3, they would have become obsessed with whatever other thing it was that made them desirable to men.

And herein lies the crux of the matter! Women who desire intellectually stimulating companions, often choose to accentuate their minds--and demonstrate a capacity for thought. Thus wooing men who find these traits desirable. Women who desire men for physical reasons alone will often accentuate their own physical prowess. Hence, you get what you ask for!

Wholeheartedly, I agree with nearly every facet of GreatLakesGramma's posts.

And for the record, I have been told by men (even men on this forum!) that I am "beautiful".

[Nan]

And I like your mind, too, Cricket, you think outside the proverbial box.

[LynnDel]

I guess I don't understand, Robert, why this is such an issue. If she is self-centered, and you have known this for some time, why hang around her (unless you're married to her, and then that is a different issue entirely)? If she's middle-aged or older, there's little likelihood of any change happening, so don't waste your time trying to improve her outlook. God can make a change, but usually not through our criticism.

As to our trying to learn whether a person has inner beauty, we need to spend time with the other person. What's on the heart shows in words and actions; what's in the heart can make a plain person beautiful, and a physically gorgeous person hideous ("Why did I ever think he was handsome?"). I've noticed this over and over again during my life. It's quite interesting, the metamorphosis that takes place over time.

People spend too much time focused on looks, in my opinion, though I also think it is important to take good care of yourself (how that is done is revealing in itself). I've always liked the story of Samuel's annointing of David as king of Israel when God told him: "Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart" -- It's one of the more important things I learned as a young child and have kept with me through life.

LynnDel

[Robert]

I'm really sorry Robert.

And I'm sorry for all the rude remarks I fired back at you.

That ends my participation on this subject.

[Gail]

Time for one of these:

:grouphug4:

[olger]

EVERY society from the beginning of time until now has treated women like lesser beings, of value only for the use of men.

Not quite true. Ever heard of Sweden, Norway?

The rest of your post had some good points.

oG

[cricket]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

EVERY society from the beginning of time until now has treated women like lesser beings, of value only for the use of men.

Not quite true. Ever heard of Sweden, Norway?

The rest of your post had some good points.

oG

I'm not familiar enough with Sweden, but I have relatives living still in Norway, and relatives who've moved to the U.S. from Norway. Of the women I know, the story is that there still is a discrepency in value between men and women-- though it is better in Norway than it is in most other places.

Even just a quick Google search shows evidence of discrepencies in pay between the sexes in Norway.

[olger]

I've been there, and am going back in May.

[CAD]

This has been a lot of fun.

Please Robert don't take anything said so personal. It seems others are just as addicted to pain as you are. I have enjoyed your posts and would have swayed more your direction.

All that keeps running through my mind while reading these-----what pray tell are your mothers like?

It's nice to hear males express their feelings. Its not every day I get to hear just what goes on inside their minds.

I am a single women who has often thought of writing a book entitiled:

The things men say to try to pick up a woman and the truth about how she has no clue as to what he is talking about.

I have found men to be most attracted to a woman's mind and energy. Women are attracted to the attention he gives her.