The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[Robert]

Jesus was 'made sin' at the cross, not in His life. The sins of the world were placed upon Him and for the first time, He felt the separation of sin that our sinful nature made us estranged from God.

4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law

Yes, at the cross Christ experienced God's wrath against sin, but nevertheless Christ was born condemned the minute He was born of a woman.

Here's Jack:

Born crucified

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...

C] Jesus, as man, was only "made sin" during His life. At the resurrection He was raised with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. He left sin in the grave.

This is according to what I believe the Bible to be saying.

Okay.

So, we have the divinity of Jesus dormant in that life that came from Mary's womb. Divinity never became humanity and humanity never became Divine. Nevertheless, the human life (which we call "the son of man) came under the curse the minute He was born of a woman, right?

1] That doesn't imply he didn't keep the law perfectly.

2] It doesn't imply that He took the curse of the law the minute he was born, but rather He was under the law.

You see the law demands perfect righteousness. This Christ did for 33 years. But it also demands perfect justice, hence "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Do you agree?

[John317]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin [iniquity - the love of self] entered into the world [the human race], and death through sin;

Paul teaches that because of Adam sin entered the human race (humanity). That's because when God created Adam He was creating all men in one man. Since Adam, our father was made defective by the fall, anything that came out of him (via procreation) had to be faulty.

and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned [past tense]:--

It's possible to translate the last clause as "on which all have sinned," or "in that all have sinned." It is not necessarily saying that everyone sinned at the time of Adam, but that the fact that everyone dies shows that all have sinned. "And so because all have sinned, death spread to all people." (Charles Williams). "And so death has spread to everyone because all sinned" (The New Translation).

Paul may well be simply saying that the fact that death occurs to all people is proof that all have sinned.

[John317]

So, we have the divinity of Jesus dormant in that life that came from Mary's womb. Divinity never became humanity and humanity never became Divine. Nevertheless, the human life (which we call "the son of man) came under the curse the minute He was born of a woman, right?

1] That doesn't imply he didn't keep the law perfectly.

2] It doesn't imply that He took the curse of the law the minute he was born, but rather He was under the law.

You see the law demands perfect righteousness. This Christ did for 33 years. But it also demands perfect justice, hence "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Do you agree?

Yes, I believe we have an agreement on those points.

Think of the sacrifice that God made because if Christ had sinned, it would have been absolutely catastrophic for the entire Godhead and thus the entire universe. It's mind-boggling to consider what that would have meant.

Many Christians believe that Christ could not possibly have sinned but I am sure He could have. It wasn't a slam-dunk deal. There were actual risks involved. When Jesus left heaven there were no absolute guarantees. Those were not just make-believe temptations.

[Robert]

It is not necessarily saying that everyone sinned at the time of Adam, but that the fact that everyone dies shows that all have sinned.

But you're limiting sin to only the transgression of the law. Clearly the folks between Adam and Moses (where the law was posted) were dying, but not because of transgression (a deliberate act of sin). They were dying because "all sinned" in Adam.

What does this mean?

Turn to Eph 2:1

As for you, you were dead [spiritually dead] in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Note sin is both,

1] transgression

and

2] imperfection of the flesh.

Remember the holy flesh thing during EGW's time. They claimed not only perfection as to law keeping, but glorified bodies free from indwelling sin. Ellen White responded:

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body.

Why vile? Because we have fallen, human lives indwelt with the principle of sin (singular).

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So, we have the divinity of Jesus dormant in that life that came from Mary's womb. Divinity never became humanity and humanity never became Divine. Nevertheless, the human life (which we call "the son of man) came under the curse the minute He was born of a woman, right?

1] That doesn't imply he didn't keep the law perfectly.

2] It doesn't imply that He took the curse of the law the minute he was born, but rather He was under the law.

You see the law demands perfect righteousness. This Christ did for 33 years. But it also demands perfect justice, hence "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Do you agree?

Yes, I believe we have an agreement on those points.

Think of the sacrifice that God made because if Christ had sinned, it would have been absolutely catastrophic for the entire Godhead and thus the entire universe. It's mind-boggling to consider what that would have meant.

Many Christians believe that Christ could not possibly have sinned but I am sure He could have. It wasn't a slam-dunk deal. There were actual risks involved. When Jesus left heaven there were no absolute guarantees. Those were not just make-believe temptations.

Okay...I'll have to think this out.

Rob

[guibox]

The bible says 'as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive' and 'by one man death came, by another life'

Christ succeeded where Adam failed. I believe even EGW says this.

Christ was the 'second Adam'. Christ didn't become the second Adam AFTER Adam failed. He passed where Adam failed. This implies that Christ didn't have the sinful nature that Adam had AFTER he fell, but before.

As far as Him being born 'under the law',remember that Christ didn't have a 'natural' birth as we define it.. He was conceived by the Spirit. We must be careful to say that because He was 'born of a woman' that He is like us and His nature is like us. Because Christ was born into the human race who was under the law doesn't necessarily have to mean that He took our sinful nature. His circumstances were special and must be taken into account that it changes the normal equation that we all go through in our sinful birth/nature.

He took the 'likeness' of flesh. That is a big word that changes alot. (And next week I will start a thread that deals with this to show that Christ had an unfallen nature.)

Christ:

1) did not have the propensity to sin.

This propensity to sin comes from indulging our sinful nature, bad choices and distorted lusts BECAUSE of our sinful nature. Christ had none of this from the beginning. That alone makes Him unlike us.

2) Christ was conceived by the Spirit. We were not

3) Christ is called the 'second Adam'

4) Christ was fully divine...we are not

At the very least you have to put Christ in a third category all His own; to say that Christ was like us but not like us. He had our likeness but not the sinful desires and propensities that comes with the sinful nature...which again, would not make Him like us while making Him like us..(??)

There is no getting around it.

Robert, I don't understand where you differ from John in your understanding of this. It seems you are arguing with me AND with John. As far as I can tell with you, I don't see the 'sinless perfection' argument as illogical with your argument. If Christ had a sinful nature and He overcame with the help of the Spirit...then so can we. We can be perfect too with the Spirit's power...just as Christ who had our sinful nature did too. Christ as our example.

You can't have it both ways...unless I'm just not following you.

[Robert]

As far as Him being born 'under the law',remember that Christ didn't have a 'natural' birth as we define it.. He was conceived by the Spirit. We must be careful to say that because He was 'born of a woman' that He is like us and His nature is like us.

Your argument is with Paul and he is "called by God". Here's the quote again:

God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 [why?] to redeem those who were under the law...

You were "born of a woman"! What does the Bible say about this?

How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman? [Job 25:4]

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother [born of a woman] conceived me. [Ps 51:5]

So if you are "born of a woman" you are sinful by nature.

What does the Bible say about being "under law"

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [Rom 3:19]

So to be "under law" means condemned. It also means, "obey and live, disobey and die." Christ, by becoming one of us (I'm looking at this from John's view) immediately came under the authority of the law. As a child of Adam he came under the curse, not because He sinned, but because He shared our fallen nature.

Now you say He was born different from us. To this I will agree. He was born like we are "re-born". He had the Holy Spirit in Him from the start, therefore He never sinned. But He still retained our nature and therefore He stood condemned under law.

The believer has the Holy Spirit, but he/she still retains his/her sinful nature. IF it wasn't for Christ that sinful nature will still condemn him/her. The reason it doesn't is because of the truth of justification by faith.

So, to Christ, what did it mean to be "born under the law"? It meant that He came to fulfill the law - i.e., "obey and live, disobey and die." For 30 something years Christ obeyed the law perfectly, but because He took our nature in it's fallen state He had to submit to the "curse of the law".

So when Christ died Deity (Christ as God) didn't die - humanity died. And the Son of God as a man died the eternal 2nd death.

At the resurrection Christ's Deity was restored (no longer dormant) and Christ was raised with a sinless, glorified humanity. This He took to heaven with Him and by faith we share in His new humanity. That's why Paul says, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

So those who have accepted their position "in Christ" are in reality "a new creation" in Christ. By faith "in Christ" I have a new humanity that stands perfect before God's law. I am complete in the Beloved.

Rob

[Robert]

For 30 something years Christ [as the 2nd Adam] obeyed the law perfectly, but because He took our nature in it's fallen state He had to submit to the "curse of the law".

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature [it couldn't produce righteousness in sinful men] , God did [How] by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be sin. And thus He condemned sin in sinful man....

Two things:

Why did Paul use the phrase, "likeness of sinful man"?

Because while Christ as the Son of Man did assume (for 30 something years) our sinful nature, He never allowed that nature to cause Him to sin. We, on the other hand, were born without God's Spirit and therefore our natures and minds were from the start in harmony. Simply stated we sinned and Christ never did. That's why Paul used the word likeness.

Note that God condemned sin in sinful man. Paul is NOT talking about our acts of sin (sins), but rather what makes all sins possible - indwelling sin - the sin nature.

For 30 something years Christ, thought the Spirit, starved the sin nature. And on the cross that sin nature was laid to rest forever. Indwelling sin wasn't raised with Christ. He literally left "iniquity" in the grave.

Rob

[Robert]

Indwelling sin wasn't raised with Christ. He literally left "iniquity" in the grave.

Summary:

1] Christ, as God, has always existed. There was never a time when He wasn't the "I am".

2] Christ, while remaining Himself (Deity), was for a brief time (30 something years) "made sin" because He took humanity in its fallen state. He took us in this state because that's where we were at - under the curse and under sin. He met us in that condition so He could LEGALLY save us.

3] When Christ, as God, united Himself to humanity, He was not merely one man among many men, but He was all men in one man just like all mankind were in Adam when he sinned.

4] So the 2nd Adam, Christ, restored humanity to its unfallen state. We have a humanity that is sinless and perfect in Him. That life is in heaven. We will receive this new humanity at the 2nd coming.

[guibox]

Bottom line...and you'll have to find a way to work around it I guess...

If Christ adopted our sinful condition, He could not be our Savior. Sin is a broken condition between us and God. Sin separated us, our sinful condition shows that we are separated from God. Christ was not estranged from the Father. If Christ became what we are, He'd need a Savior too.

Christ came to the world to restore the relationship, not to continue in the separation. Thus He came similar to us (as a human, physically speaking) but not the same as us (in broken relationship). He 'came in the likeness of sinful flesh'

Notice it doesn't say that He came in sinful flesh.

As I said before, and what I believe EGW supports..At the least, Christ would have to be in His own category:

Jesus was only similar to other humans in having a sin-affected physical human body, but not the same as other humans, for He alone was sinless in His spiritual relationship with God..

Christ’s mission must determine the extent of His identity with our humanity. To be our Saviour, Jesus must become one with us. But He could not go beyond the requirements of His mission, He could not become a sinner (in nature or act) Himself. As in the sacrificial system, Christ’s mission could be accomplished only by a Lamb without spot or blemish or any such thing

[Robert]

To be our Saviour, Jesus must become one with us.

He had to become us, while remaining Himself. The law of God, which wasn't done away with, demands that the sinner dies. Christ isn't the sinner and for Him to die in your place doesn't answer the demands of His own law.

Think of this way...you kill my best friend. The law of the land says you must die. If your best friend steps up and tells the judge he will take your punishment, the Judge will laugh himself to death.

Why? No ethical law will allow the guilty to go free and punish the innocent. That's what the vicarious atonement teaches. It is a false gospel.

Now, if you don't believe that you died in the body of Christ, please explain these verses:

Rom 6:6 We know that our old life was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed

Rom 7:4 you also died to the law [it demanded your death] through the body of Christ

2 Cor 5:14 One died for all, and therefore all died.

[guibox]

Originally Posted By: guibox

To be our Saviour, Jesus must become one with us.

He had to become us, while remaining Himself. The law of God, which wasn't done away with, demands that the sinner dies. Christ isn't the sinner and for Him to die in your place doesn't answer the demands of His own law.

Think of this way...you kill my best friend. The law of the land says you must die. If your best friend steps up and tells the judge he will take your punishment, the Judge will laugh himself to death.

Why? No ethical law will allow the guilty to go free and punish the innocent. That's what the vicarious atonement teaches. It is a false gospel.

Now, if you don't believe that you died in the body of Christ, please explain these verses:

Rom 6:6 We know that our old life was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed

Rom 7:4 you also died to the law [it demanded your death] through the body of Christ

2 Cor 5:14 One died for all, and therefore all died.

The fact is, is that Jesus was innocent but had to die in our place because only He could fulfill the just requirements of the law. He had to become sin to cancel it out. This is what happened at the cross. He took our sins on His back so we didn't have to suffer the punishment of death. He took our guilt and gave us His righteousness.

And no, it isn't fair. It doesn't follow the laws of the land where the guilty get punished and the innocent go free. That's what's so amazing about His grace.

I'm not sure what your issue here is.

[John317]

Note sin is both,

1] transgression

and

2] imperfection of the flesh.

Remember the holy flesh thing during EGW's time. They claimed not only perfection as to law keeping, but glorified bodies free from indwelling sin. Ellen White responded:

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body.

Why vile? Because we have fallen, human lives indwelt with the principle of sin (singular).

I think that's right, Rob. We have no power or control over whether we have imperfection of the flesh because we will have it until the Second Coming. That imperfection of the flesh can't force us to commit sin, however. We are not sinning just because of our sinful nature. From the point of view of the Bible and Ellen White, sin is a choice. If that was not the case, we would have an excuse to sin. We could say that we can't help sinning because that is our nature, the same way a dog can't help being doggish.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in us makes us free to choose God over sin and Satan. When Ellen White speaks of "ceasing to sin," she's referring to conscious, known sins. Those are the only kinds of sins we can do anything about.

You're right that we will never be able to say "I am sinless" until the Second Coming. Even if a person were not committing any known sins, he wouldn't be aware of it, though. No one who is intimate with Christ and honest with himself would say "I am sinless." That by itself would show that something is wrong spiritually, because there will always be sins and imperfections in our lives that the Holy Spirit is pointing out to us.

[John317]

The fact is, is that Jesus was innocent but had to die in our place because only He could fulfill the just requirements of the law. He had to become sin to cancel it out. This is what happened at the cross. He took our sins on His back so we didn't have to suffer the punishment of death. He took our guilt and gave us His righteousness.

And no, it isn't fair. It doesn't follow the laws of the land where the guilty get punished and the innocent go free. That's what's so amazing about His grace.

I agree with you on this. God condemned sin in the flesh by condemning Christ, and God did this in order to be just, or righteous. Romans 3: 26. He could not have saved us apart from the death of Christ. It was the sacrifice of Christ that made it all possible. Otherwise we would have been left in an utterly lost condition the way the rebellious angels are.

[Robert]

God condemned sin in the flesh by condemning Christ, and God did this in order to be just, or righteous.

One of the great challenges that faces the Christian Church today is how can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one many sincere people, especially Islamic scholars, accuse Christianity of being an unethical religion. Their main argument is that the doctrine of substitution, as taught by Christianity, is based on a faulty Roman law which allowed an innocent man, Christ, to die in place of the guilty human race. Hence they accuse the Christians religion of “legal fiction.”

It is true that even the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20 emphasis supplied]

Jack is right. Christ isn't the sinner. God just can't pretend that He is and then allow the curse to fall on Him.

Rob

[guibox]

Robert, I don't understand your issue.

Even if Christ had come and taken our sinful nature, He is still innocent. He didn't bring the sin problem on us. His taking our sinful nature doesn't take away the importance of what He did at the cross. What is the difference in Him adopting the sinful nature or having the sins placed upon Him at the cross? By HIS accounts, He was still righteous and innocent. I don't understand why you feel there is a difference between what happened at the cross and taking our nature from a judicial standpoint.

Christ did become sin, and in that instant, felt the punishment of sin...but at the cross. Christ WASN'T innocent when He took the sins of the people on Him..He became sin for us and took the brunt of the punishment.

Grace isn't fair. It balks against what we feel is justice.

[Robert]

Christ did become sin, and in that instant, felt the punishment of sin...but at the cross.

[guibox]

So what you are saying is that Christ took our sinful nature and came under the death sentence like us, but He didn't take our sinful tendencies?

Sounds like you are trying to have the best of both worlds there. Not too sinful that we can't be sinlessly perfect like He was, but not too sinless that we don't have an example.

Again..Christ came to bridge the separation between man and God that disobedience manifested and resulted in our sinful nature. Christ came to save us from it, not continue in the separation. If Christ inherited our sinful nature, He could not be our savior. He would need a savior too.

Our sinful nature is what separates us from God. Christ was not seperated from the Father.

[John317]

Our sinful nature is what separates us from God. Christ was not seperated from the Father.

Where does the Bible says this?

Isaiah 59: 2-- " But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear."

Christ did not do any iniquities or sins. He had the same nature, but it is not merely being born into the human family that separates us from God. Enoch was born with the same fallen nature you and I have, but he was not separated from God.

I don't know of anywhere that the Bible teaches our fallen human nature alone, in and of itself, separates us from God. No one will be eternally lost simply for having been born as a human being. Our fallen human nature does prevent us from being able to survive in the presence of God's unveiled glory, but it doesn't separate us from God. Moses had a fallen nature but he was certainly not separated from God. Same with Elijah; also Abraham.

iniquities-- Strongs #5771-- "a depraved action" (Ge. 4: 13; 44: 16), perversity, perverseness, sin, guilt, a crime, a fault, iniquity, mischief; punishment, the penalty of sin (Is. 5: 18), suffering, misery (Ps. 31:10).

Strong's Number: 5771 aw(

Original Word Word Origin

aw( from (05753)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

`avon aw-vone'

Parts of Speech TWOT

Noun Masculine 1577a

Definition

perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity

iniquity

guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)

consequence of or punishment for iniquity

Translated Words

KJV (230) - Iniquities + (01697), 1; fault, 2; iniquity, 220; mischief, 1; punishment, 5; sin, 1;

NAS (230) - blame, 1; guilt, 21; guilty, 1; iniquities, 46; iniquity, 143; punishment, 12; punishment for the iniquity, 3; punishment for their iniquity, 3;

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How did iniquity get in Lucifer? It was by his choice to give himself over to what he knew to be wrong. Lucifer was not made with iniquity in him. God did not make him that way.

The phrase "iniquity was found in him" simply means at the point at which Lucifer became wicked or unrighteous.

Sure, the phrase tells when "til iniquity was found"....and then it tells where "IN you".

Look at the text again, John...

Originally Posted By: John317

What does it mean to say "evil [ iniquity] is in their hearts"?

Compare Ezekiel 28: 15-- "until unrighteousness, or iniquity, was found in you"

Notice that 'aven [iniquity] is translated in three different ways in Ps. 28: 3--

Do not drag me away with the wicked

And with those who work iniquity,

Who speak peace with their neighbors,

While evil is in their hearts.

So....

Just because THIS instance, iniquity is validating your arguement does NOT mean that it is exclusively used in this mannor. Robert put up some pretty good texts that show that iniquity is INSIDE a person....something that you refused to look at.

See Gen. 44: 16 where it speaks of God finding out the iniquity of Joseph's brothers. Other instances might be pointed to that say the same thing. The iniquity here in Genesis 44 is a depraved action, not a depraved nature. All humans have a fallen, depraved nature, and the context shows that Judah is referring to their behavior.

[guibox]

Originally Posted By: guibox

Our sinful nature is what separates us from God. Christ was not seperated from the Father.

Where does the Bible says this?

Christ did not do any iniquities or sins. He had the same nature, but it is not merely being born into the human family that separates us from God. Enoch was born with the same fallen nature you and I have, but he was not separated from God. I don't know of anywhere that the Bible teaches our fallen human nature alone, in and of itself, separates us from God. No one will be eternally lost simply for having been born as a human being. Our fallen human nature does prevent us from being able to survive in the presence of God's unveiled glory, but it doesn't separate us from God.