The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[Neil D]

Quote:

Neil, can you have faith/trust/relationship without rules and guidelines? Try it ones... see what happens. There will always be rules no matter what, even if these are unspoken. You can't have/describe a relationship without rules.

Oh yeah, I agree...I am not saying that there are not rules....but they are not the 10 Commandments, ie a higher hierachy. They're based upon a broader principle, relationships aka love.

In general, I agreed with your post, all the way up to this point-

Quote:

Likewise, sin is not some indescribable thing that is in our bodies from our birth and that makes us do things we don't want. We create/cause sin, not other way around. The sin depends on agent's thought/action and choice.

But Sin IS in our bodies. Otherwise, why do we need NEW bodys for heaven? "Incorruptable" I think is how Paul descrubes them. And yes, we do create/cause sin. There is a relationship between those people sin has tainted and thier choices. I do want to make clear, that we do have the right to become the children of God, and thus our choices can and do overide the influences of sin especially if you have Christ in your life. What we don't realize is that since sin is in all of nature and in ourselves, the influences of sin cause us to make wrong choices, due to our lack of knowledge. [The smartest man in this world will always make poor choices, even if they are right ones. Remember, "our righteousness is as filthy rags"?]. Only Christians [ie followers of Christ] have the oppertunity to override the effects of sin, as long as they maintain the relationship with Christ. And thus, by maintianing that active relationship thru communication with God, and especially listening to God, do they have the oppertunity to live up to God's ideal[over coming sin].

[Neil D]

Never mind that this topic is gone WAAAAY off.

Heheheheheh....yeah, Adventists tend to be a bit long winded when it comes to theology and tangents are inevitable...

As long as we users dont get too picky, and are tolerant, I think that it's ok....However, if the origionator of this thread wanted the discussion to come back to the subject, I tend to think that most would comply and start new threads....

[Robert]

"does that infant need a savior"....NO...mel

This is heresy & legalism to the highest order. You must be RC?

"No one goes to the Father but by me."

"There is none righteousness, no not even one."

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

At birth our minds are void of the Spirit. That means what indwelling sin desires the mind agrees with. The flesh says, "You are number one - you come first, screw everyone else." We are self-seeking by nature. Everything we do, outside a mature relationship with Christ, is polluted with selfishness.

Again (and I love this one) - put two infants on the floor and give one a toy and the other nothing. Now sit back and watch what happens. They will fight over that toy. Why? "Iniquity" or indwelling sin. The sin nature isn't in a certain location in our bodies. Sin is the driver - sin is desire - sin is lust - it's what we crave by birth. By that I mean that everything we do (again, outside Christ) is for self-centered reasons. You can do the right thing, outwardly, but for selfish reasons. In heaven's eyes this type of fake fruit is nothing more than "dung" - it is worthless.

So we have a driver - our bent-to-self - that controls us. It is part of us and therefore it makes us unfit for heaven. The very fact you have indwelling sin makes you a sinner.

Rob

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty

"does that infant need a savior"....NO...mel

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Rob

You mean...

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

It's a big difference to say that one is sinful by birth, and that one is brought in iniquity and conceived in sin. Likewise with the passage you quoted (according as it hath been written -- 'There is none righteous, not even one;) Paul is quoting Psalms 53:

Psalm 53

1 The fool says in his heart,

"There is no God."

They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;

there is no one who does good.

2 God looks down from heaven

on the sons of men

to see if there are any who understand,

any who seek God.

3 Everyone has turned away,

they have together become corrupt;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.

It has nothing to do with being sinful by birth, but decisions people are making... Notice TURNED AWAY, and BECOME CORRUPT.

Sin is based on decision and action. Babies did not do anything wrong by being born. Yet, without God they stand no chance at any kind of righteousness.

[guibox]

Sin is based on decision and action. Babies did not do anything wrong by being born. Yet, without God they stand no chance at any kind of righteousness.

There is a difference between being held accountable for sinful acts, and the reality of a sinful nature. The baby has a sinful nature for this is the sin that was passed on by Adam. Catholicism believes this baby needs to be baptized to wash away that sin (i.e., to cleanse to make ready for heaven).

We need not do that because God will not hold us accountable for a sinful nature, but sinful acts...that doesn't change the fact that a sinful nature and inherent sin is WHY we commit acts of sin.

Christ could not have come in this sinful flesh for He came to save us from the death that Adam brought. This has nothing to do with our sinful acts but the separation of us from God inherent in our passed down sin.

If Christ came in a sinful nature like us, then He could not save us for He would be in the same predicament. Likewise, He would have 'spot and blemish' instead of the perfect, pure sacrifice that was required and demonstrated in the lamb. The lamb's nature is what made it 'imperfect' and 'blemished'. The lamb wasn't this way because it was a bad lamb to mommy ewe.

[Woody]

Quote:

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

What are you quoting here Rob. Could you give us a reference?

[BSW]

Quote:

Christ could not have come in this sinful flesh for He came to save us from the death that Adam brought.

This statement is not from the Holy Bible to be sure. Show me a manuscript where it states Christ Jesus did not come in our "fallen flesh" and I will show you a book worthy of the flames! It is unbelievable how ignorant some sound! Jesus Punked the devil in our sinful flesh so we could with Him punk that same devil in our sinful flesh. If you do not wish to overcome sin in your mind, body, and spirit don't tell others they can't.

Romans 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

We need to understand that we can in Christ Jesus overcome every hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency that leads to sin because he is like unto us. Don't allow anyone to control your minds.

Here is part of a short article by one that saw Christ Jesus personally, like the one that wrote Romans.

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which by disobedience Adam had lost, for himself and for the world. In His own character Jesus manifested to the world the character of God; He pleased not Himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence.

All who will come to the Word of God for guidance, with humble, inquiring minds, determined to know the terms of salvation, will understand what saith the Scripture. But those who bring to the investigation of the Word a spirit which it does not approve, will take away from the search a spirit which it has not imparted. The Lord will not speak to a mind that is unconcerned. He wastes not His instruction on one who is willingly irreverent or polluted. But the tempter educates every mind that yields itself to his suggestions and is willing to make of none effect God’s holy law.

We need to humble our hearts, and with sincerity and reverence search the Word of life; for that mind alone that is humble and contrite can see light. The heart, the mind, the soul must be prepared to receive light. There must be silence in the soul. The thoughts must be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. The boastful self-confidence and self-sufficiency must stand rebuked in the presence of the Word of God.

The Lord speaks to the heart that humbles itself before Him. Stirring times are before us, and it is fatal to be careless and indifferent. "Yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry." We can not afford to be disobedient to God’s requirements. The wrath which the impenitent are now treasuring up against that day when the judgment shall sit, and every case shall be judged according to the things written in the books of heaven, will soon break upon them. Then the voice of mercy will no longer plead in behalf of the sinner.

If the invitations given now are refused, if we persist in disobedience, we shall have no second probation. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve,"--God or mammon. Now, while it is called today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your heart, lest it be the last invitation of mercy.

Mrs. E. G. White. ST, July 30, 1902

[guibox]

This statement is not from the Holy Bible to be sure. Show me a manuscript where it states Christ Jesus did not come in our "fallen flesh" and I will show you a book worthy of the flames!

[Robert]

Quote:

"I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

What are you quoting here Rob. Could you give us a reference?

Ps 51:5

We are sinful by birth, period. You guys are thinking like legalists. You look at the outside, but God's law looks at the inside. Do you know what it sees? Nothing good.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"I was sinful at birth' date=' sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Rob [/quote']

You mean...

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

It's a big difference to say that one is sinful by birth, and that one is brought in iniquity and conceived in sin. Likewise with the passage you quoted (according as it hath been written -- 'There is none righteous, not even one;) Paul is quoting Psalms 53.

...

A big difference, yes indeed. We do inherit a sinful, fallen nature from our parents, but that is different from saying that we are sinful by birth.

The primary view of the Bible regarding sin is that it is a choice, not nature. No one is going to be lost simply by virtue of having been born with a fallen nature. Jesus was born with the same nature that we are born with, yet He never sinned. He did not have an advantage over us in the way in which he was tempted or in the way in which He overcame sin. If He had any advantage over us in that way, it would give the victory to Satan, who could accuse God of "stacking the deck" or of "playing favorites."

The only difference is that Jesus never had to overcome a sinful habit. He never got to the place where he loved sin. He hated sin from the beginning. We gain a propensity to sin by our experiences of habitual sinning. Jesus never had those sinful passions.

[Robert]

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being [my mind] I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind [will power] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

What does Paul call "the law of sin" - our sin nature? "Sin living in me." Did you get that? "Sin...living in me"! It doesn't say "righteousness" living in me...or something "good" living in me. No, it says sin (iniquity) living in me.

Our bodies, the whole man, is corrupt. Everything he thinks, desires and does comes from his love of self. Opposite this is agape, a love that is not self-seeking.

Look if we are not sinners by nature then why does the Paul say, "Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?" Then he goes on to say, "We will be changed...." Why? Well, why was Lucifer banished from heaven? What does the Bible say? "You were perfect in all your ways, until INIQUITY was found in you." Note, Lucifer was sinful, not because he outwardly opposed God's love, but because of indwelling sin.

[Robert]

The primary view of the Bible regarding sin is that it is a choice, not nature.

[John317]

....why was Lucifer banished from heaven? What does the Bible say? "You were perfect in all your ways, until INIQUITY was found in you." Note, Lucifer was sinful, not because he outwardly opposed God's love, but because of indwelling sin.

Sin was not a thing living inside Lucifer. Lucifer sinned because he chose to sin. He chose to go against God's will. He did not disobey God because something called "SIN" made him do it. He was created absolutely perfect, without any sin at all. He became sinful and full of iniquity because of his choices, not because of his nature. His nature changed because of his choices. He became the devil because he chose to make himself evil.

In the same way, Adam and Eve fell because they made the wrong choice. They did not make the wrong choice because of their nature. Their nature changed when they chose to disobey God. They became fallen. It became easy for them to do wrong. We inherit that nature. It is easy for us to do wrong and harder to do right-- until we are born of God. Through the second birth, God restores our freedom. See Romans 6 & 8. Romans 7 is about a man who hasn't fully realized this freedom in Christ but he will experience it as he moves into the spiritual condition as described in Romans 8.

[Robert]

And you guys claim to follow EGW?

EGW states that we cannot claim sinlessness "till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body"

As long as you remain in this corrupt body that is indwelt with the law of sin (our bent-to-self) you are sinful. Even if you overcame every sin you are still a sinner by nature. If not God would allow you in heaven with your nature. And if He did heaven would become hell.

The "holy flesh" heresy taught that believers would become sinless before the 2nd coming. What a lie....This is where legalism takes folks. What did John say? "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves."

We are sinners both by birth and performance.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The primary view of the Bible regarding sin is that it is a choice, not nature.

Pure nonsense. Read Romans chapter 7 again! If sin, even in your supposedly mature state, is choice why do you still practice the love of self? I know, self-love in your book isn't sin. Well, your nature has deceived you in this area, which just goes on to prove my point!

Do a careful word study to see how the Bible actually uses these words. Examine the verses in the Bible that mention sin, iniquity, evil, wickedness, unrighteousness, etc. 99% have to do with what we do, actions we commit, etc.

Perverse people don't have to stay perverse. Through the Spirit's power they can convert to God and become righteous. The Bible talks about "the righteous" and "the wicked." They all have the same human nature.

See below for an example of the use of "iniquity" in the book of Isaiah--

Especially compare "transgressions," "sins," and "iniquities," in the parallels. Hebrew parallelism restates the same concept in different words.

Isa 59:12 -

For our transgressions [6588] are multiplied before You, And our sins [2403] testify against us; For our transgressions [6588] are with us, And we know our iniquities [5771]:

Isa 5:18 -

Woe to those who drag iniquity with the cords of falsehood, And sin [2403] as if with cart ropes;

Isa 13:11 -

Thus I will punish the world for its evil [7451] And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Isa 27:9 -

Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin [2404]: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand.

Isa 43:24 -

"You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins [2403], You have wearied Me with your iniquities.

Isa 50:1 -

Thus says the LORD, "Where is the certificate of divorce By whichI have sent your mother away? Or to whom of My creditors didI sell you? Behold, you were sold for your iniquities, And for your transgressions [6588] your mother was sent away.

Isa 53:5 -

But He was pierced through for our transgressions [6588], He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Isa 59:2 -

But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins [2403] have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Isa 59:3 -

For your hands are defiled with blood And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness [5766].

Isa 59:12 -

For our transgressions [6588] are multiplied before You, And our sins [2403] testify against us; For our transgressions [6588] are with us, And we know our iniquities [5771]:

[Robert]

Sin was not a thing living inside Lucifer.

[Robert]

Examine every verses in the Bible dealing with sin, iniquity, evil, wickedness, unrighteousness, etc. 99% have to do with what we do, actions we commit, etc.

"I'm not a sinner until I sin outwardly"

! What utter deception...what utter nonsense. This is what's wrong with SDA. It's heresy!

[Robert]

-BC- Mar

-TI- Maranatha

-CN- 83

-CT- Proof Against Every Temptation

-PR- 02

-PG- 91

The infinite value of the sacrifice required for our redemption reveals the fact that sin is a tremendous evil. Through sin [singular] the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil.

[John317]

[Robert]

She chose to converse with the serpent at the tree after being warned not to do it. She chose to believe the words of the devil over the plain commandment of God. That was a choice.

No, you can't explain how a sinless being, in the image of God, can chose to sin. Why keep up this straw man, John? The issue is really after the fall. "We are by NATURE children of wrath"

Rob

[Robert]

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

As EGW states, indwelling sin (our bent-to-self) has corrupted the whole man. Everything in our humanity is in harmony with the principle of self-love. We are by nature (not performance only) children of wrath.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Examine every verses in the Bible dealing with sin, iniquity, evil, wickedness, unrighteousness, etc. 99% have to do with what we do, actions we commit, etc.

Blah, blah, blah....This is ranting of a legalist! I'm not a sinner until I sin outwardly! What utter deception...what utter nonsense. This is what's wrong with SDA. It's heresy!

This is like saying "don't show the facts; I have my mind already made up." How can you tell what the Bible means by "sin" and "iniquity" if you aren't willing to look inductively at how it uses the words and concepts?

Check out all the times it is used in Isaiah. How many verses there use "iniquity" to refer to people being sinful at birth?

How many uses of it are descriptions of acts we commit?

It's obvious what the answer is. All I'm saying is that we should allow the Bible to speak for itself when it comes to the meaning of "sin" and "iniquity," etc.

[Robert]

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts [his desires - his love of self], come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"

We are sinners because "from within" we are bent-to-self.

[Robert]

This is like saying "don't show the facts; I have my mind already made up." How can you tell what the Bible means by "sin" and "iniquity" if you aren't willing to look inductively at how it uses the words and concepts?

Oh, string along a bunch of verses and this is proof? No, that's ridiculous.

Let's go to the NT:

James 4:1 Those conflicts and disputes among you, where do they come from? Do they not come from your cravings that are at war within you?

Romasn 7:23 I see in my members [my humanity] another law [principle/force/power] at war with the law of my mind [my will power], making me captive to [size:23pt]the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Our bent-to-self - the law of self-love is what makes all sin possible. It is not a choice, it comes naturally.

Now the man of Romans 7 has a struggle because his mind is converted, yet he is trying to use his will power to say no to his desires that come from his members. Sin is in our members, which simply means our love of self is a force that doesn't take no for an answer. Only "the law of the Spirit" can defeat "the law of sin."

Again, our sin nature makes us sinners. We are unqualified for heaven by nature and performance.

Rob

[John317]

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts [his desires - his love of self], come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'"

We are sinners because "from within" we are bent-to-self.

Yes. See James 1: 14, 15. We are tempted from within. So was Jesus. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. He resisted temptations to sin. Temptations are not sin. Yielding to temptations is sin. Jack Sequeira himself says in his books that the believer is empowered by the indwelling Spirit to be able to resist every temptation to commit sin.

We're not sinning if we resist temptation. We don't have to ask forgiveness for being tempted. We need forgiveness of sin when we yield to the temptation. Therein lies the sin.