The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[Robert]

Maybe you need to read more Jack S. and less of the limited light woman [EGW].

According to the Biblical record, God took six days in creating all that constitutes this planet earth and then set aside (sanctified) the seventh day as His Sabbath [Exodus 20:11]. Man was created at the very end of the sixth day [Genesis 1:26-31] and, therefore, God’s seventh day Sabbath was actually Man’s first whole day. This is a most important distinction, especially when we consider the Sabbath in the light of our redemption in Christ. Let me explain.

God first worked six days in creating this world, and only when His work was perfect and finished did He rest from all His work [Genesis 2:1-3]. Adam and Eve, on the other hand, did not begin by working but resting on God’s Sabbath, which was their first whole day, and then followed it with six days of work. The significance and importance of this distinction is that mankind, in Adam, began by first receiving God’s handiwork as an entirely free gift, and then only could they enjoy it during the rest of the week.

In setting aside or sanctification the Sabbath [Genesis 2:3], God was entering into an everlasting covenant relationship with man — that he was always to be God-dependent. Hence, when Adam sinned and turned from God-dependence to self-dependence, he actually broke this God-dependent covenant, symbolized by the Sabbath. The result was: “In the sweat of thy face shall thou eat bread” [Genesis 3:19].

Today, history has proved that when man lives without God things get worse [Romans 1:18-28]. But Jesus Christ came into this world for the express purpose of restoring this rest which mankind lost at the fall [Matthew 11:28]. In doing this, He restored the significance of the Sabbath and we will discover that, in receiving the good news of salvation, we must return to this fundamental principal given to our first parents.

[Robert]

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence.

What did God say to Adam after he fell?

"From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow."

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

"From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow."

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

You see the Sabbath is a symbol of perfection. It always points to God's finished work.

1 Creation

At creation God rested the 7th day because His perfect/sinless work was finished. All mankind could do is rest in God's gift of creation. But the fall destroyed the Sabbath of creation.

2 Redemption

This is the only valid reason for Sabbath keeping. To understand it you must understand the gospel.

3 Re-creation

When the new earth is restored then the Sabbath of creation will have meaning once again. Until then the only valid reason is linked to the gospel. Otherwise one's Sabbath keeping is A sham and legalistic!

When folks think about SDA, I can tell you what they think: They push Sabbath & EGW!

Rob

[John317]

Hey TS,

I agree completely with what you say about the Sabbath. The Sabbath can say and mean so much, can't it?! I'm really glad to hear how much you've seen in the Sabbath and what it's come to signify for you. I hope your Sabbaths are really wonderfully blessed.

[Robert]

The Sabbath can say and mean so much, can't it?!

The Sabbath is nothing without Christ. This the Jews never learned. It is a symbol. Get to know Christ instead of pushing a day.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe, obeyed the commandments of God, and one of those commandments he kept was the 4th commandment.

There's no record of that. The Sabbath points to Christ as man's rest. Christ is the Sabbath. The Sabbath, under the NC, points to His complete work.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ did not obey the 4th commandment?

Yes, the Sabbath does point to Christ-- the Creator and Redeemer-- as man's rest.

But Christ is not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the seventh-day of the week-- holy time-- and it points us to Christ. Christ is the only One who can give us true rest, and the Sabbath is a weekly reminder of the rest we have in Him. But our rest in Christ does not mean that we are free to disobey God's commandments. In the same way, being under grace does not mean we should go on sinning, or willfully violating God's moral law. Romans 6: 1, 15.

I hear my Sunday-keeping friends say that Christ is the Sabbath and therefore there is no need to keep the Sabbath. That is not what the Bible teaches.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Sabbath can say and mean so much, can't it?!

The Sabbath is nothing without Christ. This the Jews never learned. It is a symbol. Get to know Christ instead of pushing a day.

Rob

Of course the Sabbath is nothing without Christ. I agree.

But at the same time, people who have Christ will not willfully continue to disobey God's commandments. Having Christ means keeping His commandments and the commandments of His Father. 1 John 1 & 2.

[Robert]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ did not obey the 4th commandment?

Christ's doesn't need the Sabbath! It is a sign for mankind. Christ is God, yet He clothed Himself in our fallen humanity so as to redeem us (see Gal 4:4).

The issue in heaven wasn't the Sabbath. The Sabbath was given at creation for mankind as a covenant (as Jack stated). That covenant was broken by the fall.

The issue in heaven was "agape" vs. "self-love" (a u-turn agape). Christ lived a life in perfect harmony with agape. That's where mankind failed. We are in the image of Adam, after the fall. While growing, we are nonetheless selfish and self-seeking. There's still the love of self in our lives. Christ overcame the love of self. That's the issue, but you can't see this because you, in my view, are steeped in tradition.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe that Jesus Christ did not obey the 4th commandment?

Christ's doesn't need the Sabbath!

As a human being, Christ needed the Sabbath, just like He needed prayer.

Did Christ keep the seventh-day Sabbath and the rest of the Ten Commandments?

[John317]

The issue in heaven wasn't the Sabbath.

Of course. There was no Sabbath at at that time.

Quote:

The issue in heaven was "agape" vs. "self-love" (a u-turn agape). Christ lived a life in perfect harmony with agape. That's where mankind failed. We are in the image of Adam, after the fall. While growing, we are nonetheless selfish and self-seeking. There's still the love of self in our lives. Christ overcame the love of self. That's the issue, but you can't see this because you, in my view, are steeped in tradition.

But I do see that. I've never said anything to indicate otherwise.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Christ's doesn't need the Sabbath!

As a human being' date=' Christ needed the Sabbath, just like He needed prayer. [/quote']

Christ wasn't a sinner! IF you make Christ a man, such as yourself, you make Him a sinner. Christ is God, yet the HS mysteriously united His Deity to our (not His) fallen humanity that needed redeeming. Much like the HS Spirit lives in you, but He is not you. He has assumed you by living in you. I'm sorry you can't understand this truth.

Quote:

Did Christ keep the seventh-day Sabbath and the rest of the Ten Commandments?

Christ defeated the love of self. See Romans 8:2

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh [the law of sin - iniquity - self-love], could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin [iniquity] in the flesh, 4 so that the basic requirement of the law [agape] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

[Robert]

Christ defeated the love of self. See Romans 8:2

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh [the law of sin - iniquity - self-love], could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin [iniquity] in the flesh, 4 so that the basic requirement of the law [agape] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....

Gal 5:14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So when Christ said, "I have kept my father's commands" He had "agape" in mind. He did this through faith in God.

The Sabbath is an end-time sign that will be united with the restoration of the gospel. SDA have made the Sabbath a legalistic requirement for heaven. They do the same with EGW.

Rob

PS: I.E., traditional, historic SDA.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The issue in heaven wasn't the Sabbath.

Of course. There was no Sabbath at at that time.

Quote:

The issue in heaven was "agape" vs. "self-love" (a u-turn agape). Christ lived a life in perfect harmony with agape. That's where mankind failed. We are in the image of Adam, after the fall. While growing, we are nonetheless selfish and self-seeking. There's still the love of self in our lives. Christ overcame the love of self. That's the issue, but you can't see this because you, in my view, are steeped in tradition.

But I do see that. I've never said anything to indicate otherwise.

TU

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

As a human being' date=' Christ needed the Sabbath, just like He needed prayer. [/quote']

Quote:

Christ wasn't a sinner! IF you make Christ a man, such as yourself, you make Him a sinner....

Of course Jesus was not a sinner. He never committed sin. He never disobeyed His Father, even by a thought. He was tempted to sin and He could have sinned, but He never did sin.

And you are right that He never ceased to be fully God.

The Bible teaches plainly that Jesus Christ was and is both God AND man. The Logos (Jesus Christ) became flesh. He became a human being. He was not a make-believe man, or merely appear to be a man-- but He truly became a man of flesh and blood. He remained God, yes, but he was a human being, and He still is a human, though glorified.

Satan hates this and fights against it. 2 John 7 says that Jesus Christ is still in the flesh, and 1 Tim. 2: 5 agrees.

[John317]

I agree that some people have made it look like the Sabbath is a legalistic requirement, and yes, some people do the same with Ellen White, but that is not representative of the what the church teaches, nor is it what Ellen White herself teaches. Both the Sabbath and the Spirit of Prophecy are given to God's people as blessings, not as legalistic requirements. I'm sorry that someone misled you into thinking that way.

[John317]

Rob, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you on this point. Sabbath keeping is not a part of the Gospel, although it is a part of the Sanctification process. Jesus did not go around preaching Sabbath as pre-requisite... and neither should we. I think it was fairly clear from conversation with a Samaritan woman (not a Sabbath keeper) that Sabbath keeping was not the priority message for her at that point.

I certainly think that there is an "elitist" mind among some Adventist, just like there was elitist mind among the post Babylonian Jews... yet I would not ascribe such mind to every Adventist. The issue of Sabbath is something that you have to study out and be convinced by yourself. I'll leave separating of the goats and the sheep up to God.

I certainly think that there will be plenty Sunday keepers in heaven, just like there will be people who would say "But we kept your Sabbath and the law", and He would say... "Depart from me, I never knew you".

The Good News is about who God is and what He has done to save us. That message is also found in the Sabbath.

I agree about the Sunday keepers in heaven. There will no doubt be more of them than of those who kept the Sabbath.

See book online by E.J.Waggoner which shows the gospel in creation: http://www.davidiansda.org/GOSC.pdf

Quote:

This message [the second angels' message], if heeded, will call the attention of every nation and kindred and tongue and people to a close examination of the Word, and to the true light in regard to the power that has changed the seventh-day Sabbath to a spurious sabbath. The only true God has been forsaken, His law has been discarded, His sacred Sabbath institution has been trampled in the dust by the man of sin. The fourth commandment, so plain and explicit, has been ignored. The Sabbath memorial, declaring who the living God is, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, has been torn down, and a spurious sabbath has been given to the world in its place. Thus a breach has been made in the law of God. A false sabbath could not be a true standard. Selected Messages Book 2 (1958), page 105, 106

[Robert]

Of course Jesus was not a sinner. He never committed sin.

John, John, John....Sin is more than merely the transgression of the law. Sin is also a state: "Sin living in me" - "You were perfect in all your ways UNTIL 'iniquity' was found IN YOU" - "Behold I was born sinful, sinful from conception".

If Christ because "us" then He was sinful by birth - He was sinful by nature.

Christ didn't come to save Himself (as in Jesus becoming a man). Jesus as God came to save the fallen human race. He did this by remaining Himself and uniting Himself to the fallen human race.

Tell me, is the Holy Spirit you? After all he has become one with you; He lives in your body.

The answer is no. He assumed you, He didn't become you. Also, the Son of God didn't become sinful humanity. He remained Himself and dwelt in our corporate fallen life. By doing so He redeem humanity from the curse of the law.

[Robert]

The Biblical Definition of Sin

By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

Our Total Human Depravity

The Hebrew Old Testament has some 12 different words to define sin and the Greek New Testament about five. Together they represent seven categories of sin. To fully appreciate God’s unconditional agape love and the incredible good news of the gospel — the truth as it is in Christ — it is important that we first come to grips with these seven categories of sin. They are as follows:

1. A deliberate act against the law of God. See 1 John 3:4. (The King James Version uses the word “transgression,” but the Greek word means “lawlessness,” which is deliberately choosing to live a life of sin.)

2. A mental consent to a temptation or a sinful desire, the sin of coveting. See Rom. 7:7,8. (See also Matt. 5:27,28; James 1:14; Prov. 24:9.)

3. Unbelief, a deliberate rejection of a Biblical truth. See Rom. 14:23. (See also John 3:18; John 16:8,9.)

4. Neglect of known duties or opportunity. See James 4:17. (See also James 2:14; Matt. 23:23; Matt. 25:43-46.)

5. Doing the wrong thing out of ignorance. See Lev. 5:17-19. (See also Luke 12:48; 1 Tim. 1:13.)

6. Our sinful natures, which we inherited from Adam. See Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3. (See also Rom. 5:19,20; Eph. 2:3b; Phil. 3:20,21.)

7. A law, principle, or constant force, dwelling in our sinful natures (indwelling sin in the flesh). This makes us slaves to sin. Therefore, holy living, in and of ourselves, is impossible. See Rom. 7:14, 20-23. (See also Luke 11:39; John 8:31-34.)

Note: The first four definitions of sin (#1-4) involve guilt because we choose to commit these sins (guilt involves responsibility or volition). But the last two definitions of sin (#6 & 7), which we all inherit at birth because of the Fall, do not involve guilt (i.e., responsibility) but only condemnation (see Rom. 5:18). While these last two definitions of sin do not involve guilt, they nonetheless make us sinners by nature and, therefore, disqualify us from heaven (see Rom. 5:19; Eph. 2:3b; 1 Cor. 15:50).

[Robert]

While these last two definitions of sin do not involve guilt, they nonetheless make us sinners by nature and, therefore, disqualify us from heaven (see Rom. 5:19; Eph. 2:3b; 1 Cor. 15:50).

If Jesus became a man instead of assuming our humanity, then Jesus was a sinner and there's no hope for us.

Here's the truth:

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ [as God] came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me "

Jesus, as God, had a body prepared for His Deity. That body is our corporate, fallen life. Jesus united His Deity with our corporate fallen life, but He didn't become us for He always remained Himself much like the Holy Spirit remains Himself even though He lives in your sinful, fallen flesh, John.

Rob

[fccool]

...Sin is more than merely the transgression of the law. Sin is also a state: "Sin living in me" - "You were perfect in all your ways UNTIL 'iniquity' was found IN YOU" - "Behold I was born sinful, sinful from conception".

If Christ because "us" then He was sinful by birth - He was sinful by nature.

Rob, I think you are making the same mistake the Catholics do. They believe that Mary was sinless because sinful can not produce sinless (because of the "sin nature").

There's nothing "magical" about sin. It's not some disease that lives in our bodies. Sin is a transgression of the law... it's a clear definition. You can't be born "sinful", you can be born a "sinner" just like if you are born and grew up in jail, we can safely assume that you will be criminally minded.

Flesh is not "sinful" per se. It is weak and susseptable to temptation and sin (breaking the law)... that's why the Bible writers expressed of "law weak in flesh". You need a change of mindset in order for the things to work, and that mindset only works when you understand and abide by the manual.

It's sort of like processing and developing film in my case. While processing the film (cinematographic film that is), all of the factors has to be right for it to turn out well. If you mess up temperature of the water, the chemicals, or the length and amount of light... you will not going to get a clear negative. In fact, everything has to be done to such precision, that I prefer to send things to the lab for processing.

If you do not have a lab, it's nearly impossible for a person like me to process a negative on my own.

So, if we take the spoiled film strip to be the result of sin, I have no other means but to screw it up... thus I am a sinner... and I have a ton of liability to my clients for screwing up the valuable time captured on that strip of film.

Now, if George Eastman (the creator) himself would come by and said that he would pay the liabilities to my clients... that would be grace. But it still does not solve the problem of me screwing up the film development. So, if I said, George, can you show me how to do it right... and he did, that would be sanctification. George does not simply do the work in my place, but he guides my every step... and without his guidance I am a lousy film developer.

This is my take on sin nature... it's not merely a disease... it's more of a disability which God can cure.

[Neil D]

Ok, i haven't been back to this thread in a while....but this caught my eye and I have a problem with it...

Quote:

There's nothing "magical" about sin. It's not some disease that lives in our bodies. Sin is a transgression of the law... it's a clear definition. You can't be born "sinful", you can be born a "sinner" just like if you are born and grew up in jail, we can safely assume that you will be criminally minded.

Hmmmmm....two things....1] If sin is transgression, then what is transgression?

2] If one can not be born sinful, ie with sin, then how can one be called a "sinner"?

Quote:

Flesh is not "sinful" per se. It is weak and susseptable to temptation and sin (breaking the law)... that's why the Bible writers expressed of "law weak in flesh". You need a change of mindset in order for the things to work, and that mindset only works when you understand and abide by the manual.

What caused this "weakness" and susepability to temptation? What is this natural tendency, [that you seem to be denying] to do the natural behaviors of breaking the law? What is this natural tendency to run away from God? What is this natural tendency to toxic behaviors? Why do children want to put thier fingers in the beautiful flame of a candle when they first see it AND after you tell them "it's hot! Don't do touch!"?

I believe that it is called "Sin"....And that sin is bigger than just behavior. It's in our genes, in the world around us and it's effects are compounded by our bad decisions...

Roman 14:23-15:1-6

But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."[a] 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[fccool]

Neil, there's NO Biblical support that sin is something outside of our mind. NONE! Sin is a decision. Without decision, there's no sin. We are born in sin, but we are not sinners unless we commit the act (or thought). While perhaps you can argue that it effected out genetic make up, you can not possibly argue that we are born with sin in us.

Quote:

2] If one can not be born sinful, ie with sin, then how can one be called a "sinner"?

Just like one can be a homosexual and not live out the tendency. In this reguard I don't mean that we are "sinners" by default... that we transgressed no matter what. What I'm trying to point out is that we need God in order to avoid living out the tendency.

It's like if you leave the machine driving without the driver... it's a good as crashed. Just because it did not crash yet, does not mean that the car is ok and is in a good shape. At the same time, it's not made to be a wreck. It simply does not have a driver in it. If the driver jumps in, he can derail the sure accident.

Likewise, we are born without God driving us. If we let God drive, we derail the accident, but it does not mean that we are born as wrecks.

[Neil D]

I am going to have to insist that you define "transgression"....before I can continue this discussion....Also, while you are defining things, also define "iniquity"....

please...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

While these last two definitions of sin do not involve guilt, they nonetheless make us sinners by nature and, therefore, disqualify us from heaven (see Rom. 5:19; Eph. 2:3b; 1 Cor. 15:50).

If Jesus became a man instead of assuming our humanity, then Jesus was a sinner and there's no hope for us.

Here's the truth:

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ [as God] came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me "

Jesus, as God, had a body prepared for His Deity. That body is our corporate, fallen life. Jesus united His Deity with our corporate fallen life, but He didn't become us for He always remained Himself much like the Holy Spirit remains Himself even though He lives in your sinful, fallen flesh, John.

Rob

I understand what you are saying. We don't disagree as much as you might think. I agree with those verses, and I believe what you say about Jesus assuming our humanity. Jesus didn't cease to be God when He assumed our humanity.

However, "assuming" our humanity-- which I believe was Adam's post-Fall nature-- does not mean that Christ did not "become" a human being. The Bible specifically says that "the Logos became flesh." Hebrews 3: 17 says that Jesus Christ "became like his brothers in every respect" so that He might be a faithful High Priest.

Does that mean Jesus was a sinner? No. Why not? Because He never committed sin. He never consented to disobey God.

The primary view of the Bible with regard to sin is that it is a choice, not nature.

As long as we think of sin as primarily our nature, we won't see sin as something we have a choice about. We won't see the importance of choosing not to sin. We will see sin as something we are doomed to keep committing and will see it as "no big thing."

The Bible does not view sin in this way. It views sin as something which God gives us the power to resist and overcome. It's not something the born-again believer, who is indwelt by the Spirit, MUST do, despite his decisions and his choices.

The Bible doesn't view us as sinning no matter what we do or think or say. If it did, it would not say things such as Romans 6: 1, 15 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

[John317]

I am going to have to insist that you define "transgression"....before I can continue this discussion....Also, while you are defining things, also define "iniquity"....

please...

Transgression--

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 458 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

ajnomiva from (459)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Anomia 4:1085,646

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

an-om-ee'-ah Noun Feminine

Definition

the condition of without law

because ignorant of it

because of violating it

contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

King James Word Usage - Total: 15

iniquity 12, unrighteousness 1, transgress the law + (4160)&version=kjv 1, transgression of the law 1

Iniquity--

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 93 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

ajdikiva from (94)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Adikia 1:153,22

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ad-ee-kee'-ah Noun Feminine

Definition

injustice, of a judge

unrighteousness of heart and life

a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness

King James Word Usage - Total: 25

unrighteousness 16, iniquity 6, unjust 2, wrong 1

[John317]

Example of NT use of "iniquity"--

New American Standard Bible--

Greek Word: Ajdikiva

Transliterated Word: adikia

Book to Display: 2 Peter

Verse Count: 2

2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,

2Pe 2:15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,