The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[Robert]

We don't have to ask forgiveness for being tempted.

But the fact we are tempted means we are indwelt with iniquity! Without Christ all we can do is say yes to our bent-to-self. Can you take this nature to heaven with you? No! Why not? It's sin - it belongs to you. Indwelling sin never belonged to Christ. It was never His...it was yours. At the incarnation He assumed your humanity indwelt with sin. It wasn't His just like the Spirit that lives in you isn't defiled by your nature. Why? Huh, it's your nature...not His.

Rob

[Robert]

I'm too impatient. Guess where that comes from? My nature. Signing off before I pop a brain cell.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

We don't have to ask forgiveness for being tempted.

But the fact we are tempted means we are indwelt with iniquity! Without Christ all we can do is say yes to our bent-to-self. Can you take this nature to heaven with you? No! Why not? It's sin - it belongs to you. Indwelling sin never belonged to Christ. It was never His...it was yours.

Was Jesus tempted from within to go apart from the will of His Father? The Bible says He was. He prayed about that temptation. He said, "Not my will but your will be done." He showed that His will was not necessarily God's will. He had to choose to make God's will His own will. He could have chosen to go his own way but He never did. Jesus prayed that His will would be God's will. We need to pray the same thing all the time, and God answers that prayer the same as God answered Jesus' prayer.

Jesus did not have indwelling sin in Him because He never chose to sin. But if He had, He also would have had indwelling sin.

The point I would make is that merely having a fallen, sinful nature is not itself a sin. We are not called to ask God to forgive us for being a human being with a fallen nature.

Indwelling sin is mine because I chose it and wanted it at one time. Jesus never had it because Jesus never chose it or wanted it.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Robert

....why was Lucifer banished from heaven? What does the Bible say? "You were perfect in all your ways, until INIQUITY was found in you." Note, Lucifer was sinful, not because he outwardly opposed God's love, but because of indwelling sin.

Sin was not a thing living inside Lucifer.

[John317]

OK, bye. Nice talk'en.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sin was not a thing living inside Lucifer. [/quote']

You are correct. Sin was not LIVING inside Lucifer...It was in him, but it was not LIVING inside of him. Notice that bible verse above..."Iniquity was found IN you."

How did iniquity get in Lucifer? It was by his choice to give himself over to what he knew to be wrong. Lucifer was not made with iniquity in him. God did not make him that way.

The phrase "iniquity was found in him" simply means at the point at which Lucifer became wicked or unrighteous.

What does it mean to say "evil [ iniquity] is in their hearts"?

Compare Ezekiel 28: 15-- "until unrighteousness, or iniquity, was found in you"

Notice that 'aven [iniquity] is translated in three different ways in Ps. 28: 3--

Ps 28:3 -

Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 205

Original Word Transliterated Word

aw) 'aven

Translated Words

affliction, distress, evil, false, harm, idol, iniquity, misfortune, mourners', mourning, sorrow, trouble, unrighteous, vanity, wicked, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoers

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

until we are born of God. Through the second birth, God restores our freedom. See Romans 6 & 8. Romans 7 is about a man who hasn't fully realized this freedom in Christ but he will experience it as he moves into the spiritual condition as described in Romans 8.

....and I won't argue the rest of it....

...but it does bother me, that you are so inconsistant in your literalness, but when the bible litterally says one thing, and you absolutely deny it....

I suppose you mean when it says that "iniquity was found in" Lucifer.

Ps. 28: 3 says that iniquity, or evil [same Hebrew word there] was IN their hearts.

What does that mean? Does it mean evil was literally some thing in their hearts?

No, it means that they were entertaining and cherishing evil thoughts and intentions and plans.

It was the same with Lucifer. He was perfect until he began entertaining and cherishing evil thoughts and intentions and plans-- even though he sometimes acknowledged that it was wrong for him to do be doing it.

Do you believe that Ps. 28: 3 should be understood as meaning that iniquity was literally in those people's hearts? When we say that someone has wickedness in their heart or that they have a wicked heart, do we mean that literally? If we perform a surgery on their heart muscle, is it possible we would find some wicked thing in their heart?

Or are we talking about their thoughts and desires being wicked?

In the case of Lucifer, I believe that we can take Ezekiel 28: 15 the same way: that Lucifer was perfect until he began to entertain and cherish wrong thoughts and intentions.

Tell me, if you will, how that is wrong thinking about this text.

[Neil D]

How did iniquity get in Lucifer? It was by his choice to give himself over to what he knew to be wrong. Lucifer was not made with iniquity in him. God did not make him that way.

The phrase "iniquity was found in him" simply means at the point at which Lucifer became wicked or unrighteous.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sin was not a thing living inside Lucifer.

You are correct. Sin was not LIVING inside Lucifer...It was in him, but it was not LIVING inside of him. Notice that bible verse above..."Iniquity was found IN you."

Originally Posted By: John317

Lucifer sinned because he chose to sin. [/quote']

And if his decisions were the iniquity that was mentioned above, then the wording would have been "You were perfect in all your ways, until INIQUITY was found by you

What was the iniquity in Lucifer besides his choices and his wrong desires? Was his nature wicked before he made those wrong choices? That is, were his choices the product of a wicked nature, or did he get a wicked nature as a result of his wrong choices?

I believe that Lucifer was completely free to choose as he did. However, if we say that his choices were the result of a nature with which he was created, then we must acknowledge that he was not completely free to choose.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Compare Ezekiel 28: 15-- "until unrighteousness, or iniquity, was found in you"

Notice that 'aven [iniquity] is translated in three different ways in Ps. 28: 3--

So....

Just because THIS instance, iniquity is validating your arguement does NOT mean that it is exclusively used in this mannor. Robert put up some pretty good texts that show that iniquity is INSIDE a person....something that you refused to look at.

Actually we've talked about these same texts over and over again for over 2 years. I will look at each one of them in detail again. And let's also compare the relatively few instances where the Bible uses "iniquity" as being inside a person with all the hundreds of times it uses the word to signify acts and behavior.

That is what I mean by saying the primary view of Scripture is of sin and iniquity being choices and not nature.

I am not denying that humans have fallen, sinful natures. I am just saying that when God calls for us to stop sinning, etc., to obey Him, it is assuming that we have a choice whether to sin or not. It isn't viewing sin as something that we do simply by breathing and being alive.

It's a difference that Adventists have of sin from the view that Calvinists have of it. Because of their acceptance of the historic doctrine of Original Sin, they see sin as something humans can't stop doing simply because of our nature. Sin, for them, is not a choice. Therefore they don't see overcoming sin and living a holy life (i.e., a life separate from sin) as either possible or necessary for the Christian.

[John317]

James 4:1 Those conflicts and disputes among you, where do they come from? Do they not come from your cravings that are at war within you?

Romasn 7:23 I see in my members [my humanity] another law [principle/force/power] at war with the law of my mind [my will power], making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

there are some pretty power evidence that there is something that is in our nature.

Yes, I agree that our natures are bent and sinful and fallen. We have sinful propensities; that is, we've developed evil habits because of our choices to sin over and over again. Jesus, of course, never had this. He was born with the same essential fallen nature as we are born with, but He had the Holy Spirit in Him from the time of His conception. He never had to undergo a conversion experience or the second birth.

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I have seen other lexicons translate the hebrew word into iniquity. I have shown the word Iniquity pointing directly to human nature. I therefore conclude that iniquity is not just about choice alone...but rather iniquity can be infered as 'a wrong path made up from our wrong choices' as evidence by Isa 53:6. And while our choices can make our path, sometimes our path makes our choices...that is still iniquity.

I think I can agree with your last paragraph, Neil. I think we're very close in our views on this, actually. If we were face to face talking about this, we would probably find that we are in agreement.

[True-believer]

Posted by Guibox:

I recommend you check out Bacchiocchi's fuller explanation of this passage. This and the newsletters before and after are the best refutation of anti-Sabbath arguments. Bacchiocchi definitely needs to be commended for exposing the poor hermeneutic that so many adopt to try and dispute the Sabbath.

Now my comment:

My mother and stepdad are using Bacchiocchi's material to try and disproof the Sabbath and to disproof all sda christians.

My mum and stepdad really do dispise all sda's, they even dispise me--her son, and she theatened to disown me as her son when I become a member within this month.

I don't know much about Bacchiocchi's writings, but Guibox seems to always be referring to him all the time----WHY???????

I don't know why?

Is Bacchiocchi's writings trying to disproof what we believe in like my mother and stepdad is saying?

Why Guibox do you keep referring to this person who does not keep the Sabbath but instead Sunday????????

My parents are driving me crazy!!!!!!!!

[John317]

...

My mother and stepdad are using Bacchiocchi's material to try and disproof the Sabbath and to disproof all sda christians.

My mum and stepdad really do dispise all sda's, they even dispise me--her son, and she theatened to disown me as her son when I become a member within this month.

I'm terribly sorry to hear about this. That has to be very hard to deal with. I can't even begin to imagine being in that situation. You really do need the Lord's leading in your life, and wisdom to know what to say and do.

Please be sure to keep all of us here posted so we can know what to pray about. God is a God who answers prayer and I know that He understands your situation.

Quote:

I don't know much about Bacchiocchi's writings, but Guibox seems to always be referring to him all the time----WHY???????

I don't know why?

I don't know guibox personally so I can't be sure why he frequently referes to Bacchiocchi's writings, but it is probably because Bacchiocchi agrees with his viewpoints on a number of key issues.

It may surprise you to know that Bacchocchi-- who recently passed away-- was a Seventh-day Adventist professor of theology and wrote quite a few books. He got his doctorate degree from a Catholic university in Rome. While there he wrote his thesis on the change from Sabbath to Sunday. He showed that the change came about as a result of a number of historical factors involving the churches in Rome and Alexandria. He took a point of view regarding Col. 2: 14 similar to the one I take on this thread, but later he changed his mind.

I like many of Bacchocchi's books, such as his work on the topic of Wine In the Bible. Also a book he wrote regarding Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth and the rapture. He also wrote several good books on the Sabbath. One is The Sabbath In the New Testament and another is something like Sabbath Rest for Human Restlessness.

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Is Bacchiocchi's writings trying to disproof what we believe in like my mother and stepdad is saying?

Actually, Bacchocchi claimed that he was trying to prove that the Sabbath is still to be kept and that Sunday is not the right day.

What book are your mother and stepdad reading? I find it hard to believe that they think they are finding evidence against the Sabbath in Bacchiocchi's book(s).

I would be extremely interested to know what argument they are using and exactly what passages from Bacchiocchi's book they believe are opposed to the weekly Sabbath day.

I do believe that some things Bacchiocchi wrote about the Sabbath-- for instance, on Col. 2: 14-- could be very confusing to a lot of people. He wrote some rather complex things, and perhaps this is why it has some people very confused.

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Why Guibox do you keep referring to this person who does not keep the Sabbath but instead Sunday????????

I'm not Guibox-- so I can't speak for him-- but the truth is that Bacchiocchi kept the Sabbath and not Sunday. I saw him speak one time in an SDA church soon after he got his Doctorate from the Catholic university. He always spoke fondly and strongly about the Sabbath.

Quote:

My parents are driving me crazy!!!!!!!!

I don't know what to tell you, Luke, except it may be best not to argue the point with them any more. Just be a good, loving son and do what you know God wants you to do in the home, being kind and thoughtful. When they see how changed you are; what a respectful, loving person you are, they may change their mind about SDAs and your decision to join the church.

God bless, Luke! I've got to be off to bed now.

[Robert]

"Not my will but your will be done."

Why would Christ's will oppose His Father's will? Because Christ, as God, assumed my humanity...your humanity and therefore it tempted His mind to sin. But, it was not His humanity indwelt with sin - it was our humanity. He assumed us to redeem us and He defeated "sin in sinful men". We are accepted "in Him"

[Robert]

Sin, for them, is not a choice.

Everyone of us was born outside God. We were born outside His Spirit. We were born, not in the likeness and image of God, but the image of fallen Adam. His life is our life, shared. His life is indwelt with iniquity - or as Paul states - "SIN living in me".

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

You sin in your preconverted state because your love of self (iniquity) dictates what you do.

You sin in your converted state because your love of self (iniquity) dictates what you do and unless you allow God to deal with it your will power will meet defeat.

Adam passed to you a life that had sin and a life that was enslaved to sin. Sin is the driver - it makes all sinning (sins) possible. Funny how you can say "that's not sin". Well, God doesn't agree because unless you receive a new humanity, free from indwelling sin, you will not see heaven.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

What we receive from Adam comes naturally. What we receive from Christ comes by faith. We share Adam's fallen life and therefore we stand condemned. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but because we share his life we stand in death row.

Lucifer, once iniquity was found in him (sin living in him) was banished from heaven. You also cannot enter heaven unless you lose the sin nature.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

"Not my will but your will be done."

Why would Christ's will oppose His Father's will? Because Christ, as God, assumed my humanity...your humanity and therefore it tempted His mind to sin. But, it was not His humanity indwelt with sin - it was our humanity. He assumed us to redeem us and He defeated "sin in sinful men". We are accepted "in Him"

I believe we're in agreement on this.

[guibox]

The point I would make is that merely having a fallen, sinful nature is not itself a sin. We are not called to ask God to forgive us for being a human being with a fallen nature.

Indwelling sin is mine because I chose it and wanted it at one time. Jesus never had it because Jesus never chose it or wanted it.

The simple fact is is that Christ was NOT like us no matter what stance you take.

1) Jesus did not have the indwelling sin which is a part of our sinful nature passed on by Adam.

2) Christ did not have the chemical imbalances and desires of our sinful nature that we've inherited and developed over millenia of committing sin.

3) Paul makes is clear that it is this indwelling sin, this baggage of bad decisions that makes us have war against the Spirit.

Just these three things alone show that at the least, Christ would fall in third category all his own (I believe that even conservative Richard O'ffill does not agree with Christ having the exact nature as us and leans toward this category)

It was these very things that Christ as the perfect lamb came to save mankind from. If He possessed such things (which is the crux and core of our 'sinful nature'), then He could not have been our Savior!

So to say that it is not fair and that Satan would have grounds for accusal because we couldn't do what Christ did is nonsense and moot. We are prone to sin and fall to temptation because of these things. Christ had none of them and even EGW said this.

So we shouldn't have a fit when we realize that Christ was NOT like us and took on the LIKENESS of flesh, not the infirmities that make us sinful and cause us to sin.

As I said before, any advantage He had was in our favor because Christ is our SUBSTITUTE and SAVIOR first and foremost, not merely our EXAMPLE. We need to get over this argument that Satan accuses God for having an advantage so we can't be sinlessly perfect on our own.

Christ was the Lamb of God that needed to be perfect in all ways to be our substitute. How He did this is not our concern. All we should care about is that He did it to save us, not to show that we can kick Satan's butt with a bit of teeth gritting and rolling up our sleeves. He took our likeness to EMPHATHIZE with us, not to become sinful like us so He could show us how to keep the law perfectly in our sinful nature with a bit of elbow grease.

This was not His mission. He was to come to be the substitute and take away our sins. If Christ did this with all advantage, all the more power to us!

[BSW]

1 Peter 4:1,2

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin(this means sinlessness); That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

Philippians 2:5,6

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

1 Peter 2:21-25

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

I know many believe they cannot become "sinless", that we were altogether born in sin. My father (Adam) blew it at such a level that all inherited the tendency to sin. Yet Christ came and lowered Himself to such a level as to say "you cannot possibly go any lower than I". We will never become sin. He did. We are sin. He wasn't. But because He became sin for me I can become righteous in Him. This means quite simply, I can live in my sinful flesh (without EVER falling into sin) perfectly in Him. I am given the power to live above myself as long as Christ liveth in me. YOU CAN TO!! Don't allow yourself to think so low of yourself. It is sooooo possible to live the light that you have. Is it easy? No, because the old man is hard to die, but die he must if you are to live IN Christ Jesus. Claim the promise that Christ can keep you from falling today, then go do battle with the fruit of the Spirit against such there is no law.

Hebrews 12:1,2

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Just because you think we are not able to stop sinning and live a life dedicated to Christ, doesn't mean I have to even come close to your logic, which seems illogical to me...

Man I love America

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The point I would make is that merely having a fallen, sinful nature is not itself a sin. We are not called to ask God to forgive us for being a human being with a fallen nature.

Indwelling sin is mine because I chose it and wanted it at one time. Jesus never had it because Jesus never chose it or wanted it.

The simple fact is is that Christ was NOT like us no matter what stance you take.

1) Jesus did not have the indwelling sin which is a part of our sinful nature passed on by Adam.

I agree with he didn't have indwelling sin, because He never sinned and therefore never developed sinful habits or had the same passions that we have.

I don't say that Jesus was like us in every way. When I was just a little kid-- not more than 4-- I would take money out of my mother's purse and go to the store and buy candy. I was stealing and knew it was wrong because I remember knowing that my mother wouldn't want me to do that. Jesus never did those kinds of things nor did he want to do them. So, yes, he was different from us in that sense. He always wanted to do the right thing, even as a young child.

The Holy Spirit was in his life even from the time he was a baby. We have the Spirit in that way only from the time of the second birth.

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2) Christ did not have the chemical imbalances and desires of our sinful nature that we've inherited and developed over millenia of committing sin.

Don't you believe that He inherited the same genes as his mother did? I believe He inherited the same physical nature that Abraham and David and the fallen Adam had. He didn't commit sin Himself, but He inherited the nature of people of had sinned. He wasn't excused from that aspect of humanity.

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3) Paul makes is clear that it is this indwelling sin, this baggage of bad decisions that makes us have war against the Spirit.

Of course He never had the baggage of bad decisions to deal with. No bad habits of any kind, so he did have that difference. Much of our problem comes from our memories and evil patterns of thinking and behaving.

We have wars between the flesh and the Spirit, but our flesh has a greater pull than the Spirit much of the time. It seems to have been the opposite with Christ-- with the Spirit having the greater pull.

Believers reach that point, also, where the Spirit is more powerful than the flesh.

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Just these three things alone show that at the least, Christ would fall in third category all his own (I believe that even conservative Richard O'ffill does not agree with Christ having the exact nature as us and leans toward this category)

I didn't mean to give the impression that I believe Christ has the exact same nature as us. I believe that He assumed the nature of the fallen Adam, not the unfallen Adam.

He was our example in resisting and overcoming sin by the Holy Spirit's power. He understands what it means to be tempted and to have to depend on His Father for power to resist temptation. And from the sanctuary in heaven He gives us power to resist every temptation to sin.

[guibox]

The Holy Spirit was in his life even from the time he was a baby. We have the Spirit in that way only from the time of the second birth.

[Robert]

Jesus did not have the indwelling sin which is a part of our sinful nature passed on by Adam.

This can get complicated....Anyway, yes as the Son of God, Jesus did not have indwelling sin, but as the son of mankind He assumed our humanity in its fallen state. Why?

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son [the Son of God], born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

You see humanity stands under the curse of the law. Jesus, in order to save us from its curse, united His Deity to our (not His) fallen humanity that was in need of redeeming. You see Christ didn't come to save unfallen humans (like Adam before the fall) - He came to save sinners.

So what God did is mysteriously blended His Deity (and God is Spirit) with our corporate life in the womb of Mary. He never became us, but always remained Himself. In assuming us He rewrote our history so that we can actually claim that we are righteous in Him. In Christ we have,

1] Obeyed the law (especially its spirit)

2] Died the 2nd death

3] And were raised in Him with a sinless, immortal life.

So "in Christ" we have a new humanity free from all sin. That humanity is "in Christ" in the heavenly places. We receive this new life at the 2nd coming if we remain faithful!

Rob

[Robert]

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son [the Son of God], born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

When Christ as God blended Himself with our humanity in the womb of Mary, our humanity (Christ as the son of man) came under the curse! Why - did Christ's assumed humanity indulge the flesh? No! Then why? Because our humanity (which Christ assumed) was indwelt with iniquity and therefore it came under the curse. That's because the law doesn't demand just perfect performance, but also a perfect nature!

[John317]

This doesn't make any sense. Christ cannot inherent the sinful tendencies that come with the nature but not carry the inherent baggage that comes with it that causes us to sin. The impetuousness, the propensity to sin, these are things that come with the nature. EGW says that Christ didn't have these propensities.

But if you do a word-study of how Ellen White used the word "sinful propensity," she evidently means the same thing as "passions," which result from committing sins and developing sinful habits.

See how she uses "sinful propensity"--

We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . .

God's Amazing Grace (1973), page 235, paragraph 4; Chapter Title: Partakers of Christ's Nature

(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Hebrews 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5 (1956), page 1128, paragraph 4

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus (RH April 24, 1900). S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7 (1957), page 943, paragraph 2

Article Title: Christian Perfection.-Mrs. E. G. White.-

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."The Review and Herald, April 24, 1900, paragraph 6

Let us lay aside the warfare the enemy would have us put on. Let us begin to work in earnest to overcome our hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil. Let us plead with God to take away the wicked propensity to faultfinding, and in its place to give us life and the love of Christ. . . . Christ Triumphant (1999) , page 214, paragraph 6

He needs the censure of none, but the pity of all. His life has been a terrible mistake. He has suffered imaginary pecuniary want, while surrounded with plenty. Satan has taken possession of his mind and, exciting his organ of acquisitiveness, has made him insane upon this subject. The higher, nobler powers of his being have been brought very much into subjection to this close, selfish propensity. His only hope is in breaking the bands of Satan and overcoming this evil in his character. He has tried to do this by doing something after his conscience has been wrought upon, but this is not sufficient. This merely making a mighty effort and parting with a little of his mammon, and feeling all the time that he is parting with his soul, is not the fruit of true religion. He must train his mind to good works. He must brace against his propensity to acquire. He must weave good works into all his life. He must cultivate a love for doing good, and get above the little, penurious spirit which he has fostered. Testimonies for the Church Volume Two (1868-1871), page 238, paragraph 1

[guibox]

Originally Posted By: guibox

Jesus did not have the indwelling sin which is a part of our sinful nature passed on by Adam.

This can get complicated....Anyway, yes as the Son of God, Jesus did not have indwelling sin, but as the son of mankind He assumed our humanity in its fallen state. Why?

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son [the Son of God], born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

You see humanity stands under the curse of the law. Jesus, in order to save us from its curse, united His Deity to our (not His) fallen humanity that was in need of redeeming. You see Christ didn't come to save unfallen humans (like Adam before the fall) - He came to save sinners.

If Jesus coming 'under the law' means that He took our fallen nature, means that He was under the curse of the law which was death due to separation from God. Christ was not separated from God. The whole purpose of Him coming was to bridge the gap. Hence, He took the 'likeness' of sinful flesh to become human, while retaining His divinity. In this He united them and saved us.

If Christ took our fallen nature, than He was separated from God for it was sin (as nature and an act) that separates us from God. Christ could not have been our Savior for He would have been in the same boat we are in. He would have had to save himself.

To save man, Christ had to:

1) be the perfect lamb without spot or blemish (we are not talking about simply 'committing sin') as the sacrificial system symbolized.

2) live perfectly because we could not do it. Why?

Because our sinful nature inherited from Adam did not have the power

3) become sin to crucify it which He did at the cross, not at birth

Christ could not save us from our sinful condition if He adopted it.

Christ was our substitute, our propitiation. Any advantage He may have had was to our advantage.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

And if his decisions were the iniquity that was mentioned above' date=' then the wording would have been "You were perfect in all your ways, until INIQUITY was found by you [/quote']

To say "you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in you," signifies that Lucifer was attempting to hide his sin. He was trying to keep it hidden and secret. He didn't want anyone to know what his real motives were. He real motives were jealousy and hatred toward Christ and even God. He wanted everyone to think that he was still a good angel when in fact he had become a bad, fallen angel. He went around trying to stir up questions about God's wisdom and God's law. He began spreading rumors about Christ.

So in that sense the wickedness was finally found out. The iniquity in him were his evil thoughts and intentions. He wouldn't have had that wickedness in him if he hadn't been entertaining those thoughts and intentions. He could have repented at that point and God would have accepted Him back. But he didn't do it. He kept holding those thoughts inside him instead of giving them up. Doing that even after he was aware it was wrong was what caused his nature to change.

What are your thoughts?