The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[John317]

Quote:

Also, as I said before, verses 13 and 15 do not support any law being nailed to the cross in context, which is the act of, and results of, forgiveness of Christ's sacrifice. Vs 14 shows us the 'how' of vs 13 and the 'what happened because of' in vs 15.

Crucifying the law to the cross does none of these things. Abolishing the law be it ceremonial and especially moral is not going to bring closeness to God and forgiveness that is the basis of Colossians 2.

But the evidence is that God did not simply forgive us but he took away the entire Mosaic system.

The text says that God did 5 things simultaneously:

1. v. 13-- God forgave us all of our sins.

2. v. 14-- God blotted out the handwriting of the bond with its legal decrees which stood against us.

3) v. 14-- By nailing it to the cross, God set aside and cleared completely out of the way the bond with its regulations, decrees and demands.

4) v. 15-- Christ triumphed over Satan and his angels, taking away their office and authority as princes of this world, and their armor of strength in their warfare against right (SDA BC 205).

5) v. 16-- God made it impossible for us to be judged by the ceremonial laws, including the ceremonial sabbaths and all the rites and rituals related to them.

On Col. 2: 14, the Zondervan TNIV Study Bible says, ""the charge of our legal indebtedness. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God."

On Col. 2: 17, the same study Bible (written by non-SDAs) says, "shadow... reality: The ceremonial laws of the OT are here referred to as shadows (cf. Hebrews 8: 5; 10:1) because they symbolically depicted the coming of Christ; so any insistence on the observance of such ceremonies is a failure to recognize that their fulfillment has already taken place. This element of the Colossian heresy was combined with a ridid asceticism, as vv. 20-21 reveal."

On Col. 2: 14, The Nelson Study Bible, says, "nailed... to the cross: Not only were our personal sins forgiven at the Cross, but those rules that condemned us have also been removed by the death of Christ."

On the same verse, the Life Application Bible (NKJV), says, "'The handwriting of requirements that was against us' was the legal demands of the Old Testament law. The law opposed us by its demands for payment for our sin. Though no one can be saved by merely keeping that code, the moral truths and principles in the Old Testament still teach and guide today.

About Col. 2: 17, The Life Application Bible says, "Old Testament laws, holidays, and feasts pointed toward Christ. Paul calls them a 'shadow' of the reality that was to come-- Christ himself. When Christ came, he dispelled the shadow. If we have Christ, we have what we need to know and please God."

R.A. Knox, a Roman Catholic translator, says, "The 'deed which excluded us' is the ceremonial law of Moses, which now no longer stands as a barrier between Jew and Gentile (cf. Eph 2: 15)."

A.S. Worrell's Translation With Study Notes, says, "The handwriting in decrees: the ceremonial law which most Jews interpreted according to the letter, and not in their true spiritual import. Contrary to us: burdensome, and against true Christian liberty. Nailing it to the cross: thus abrogating, or annulling it by His death on the cross."

The SDA Bible Commentary on Col. 2: 14--

"'Handwriting. Gr. cheirographon, 'a document written by hand.' The word occurs only here in the NT. Elsewhere the word is frequently used of handwritten documents often of a legal character, such as a bond signed by a debtor. Compare Philemon 19. The 'blotting out' of such a certificate of indebtedness was carried out only after the debt had been paid and the conditions of the note had been completely met. It was often done by placing an 'X' over it, as shown by papyri examples. Also, the water-soluble ink on papyrus could be washed off or rubbed away, and new writing placed upon the material. Some commentators hold that the apostle is telling the Colossian church that their regeneration through the resurrection power of God, the restoration within them of His image, was carried out by God's blotting out, or canceling, the indebtedness of the bond they were due to fulfill. Others see a more general reference to the Mosaic law, especially as interpreted by the Jews. The latter view seems to be more in harmony with the succeeding context. The similarity with the language of Eph. 2: 15 and the parallel nature of these two epistles suggest strongly that the 'handwriting of ordinances' is the same as the 'law of commandments contained in ordinances.'

"Ordinances. Gr. dogmata, 'decrees.' 'statues.' This refers to the various laws and decrees of the Jewish legal system such as terminated at the cross."

In the Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology, Vol. 12 of SDA Bible Commentary, pp. 476, 477, it says, "Colossians 2: 13, 14. In Colossians 2 Paul describes the wonder of the salvation that Christ has made possible for them. Buried in baptism with Him, they were also circumcised in Christ (verses 11, 12). They had been 'dead in trespasses' and 'uncircumcision,' but God had made them alive, He had forgiven their sins, and had 'canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands.' He had done this figuratively by 'nailing it to the cross' (verses 13, 14). Because of Christ's triumphs over the evil powers, the Colossians were now free to enjoy the blessings of salvation (verse 15).

"This debt or condemnation is further identified as having legal demands against us. Not only was it hostile to us or against us; this note of indebtedness consisted of 'decrees against us' (NASB). Interestingly this phrase that describes the promissory note includes one of only two Pauline occurrences of the same Greek word dogma, 'opinion' or 'decree'; the other appears in Ephesians 2: 15. In both texts a system of regulations is evidently in view. In Ephesians the regulations have to do with ritual that separated Jews from Gentiles, especially circumcision. The context of Colosians 2: 14 indicates regulations having to do with ceremonial celebrations and food (v. 16; see Sabbath). In both cases dogma has to do with Jewish ceremonial law. With the death of Christ the ceremonial system that pointed forward to Christ as the culmination of the entire legal system came to an end. No longer was it needed. Not so the moral law, including the Ten Commandments, which are a representation of the eternal character of God. It can be safely concluded that in these texts nothing is said or even intimated about the demise of the moral law."

[Ellen]

Would you say that the law against stealing is done away with?

Is it now all right to take God's name in vain? to worship idols.

simple

we can use paragraphs and paragraphs of proofs but sometimes it only takes a simple reasoning to answer the question.

[guibox]

Many outstanding Bible scholars believe that Col. 2: 14 and Eph. 2: 15 are referring to the same things. ...This is just part of the evidence showing that the fact that Col. 2: 14 does not use the word "nomos" is irrelevant.

[guibox]

Would you say that the law against stealing is done away with? Is it now all right to take God's name in vain? to worship idols. simple we can use paragraphs and paragraphs of proofs but sometimes it only takes a simple reasoning to answer the question.

Ellen, you obviously haven't read my posts. I'm not saying that the moral law was nailed to the cross. I'm saying that NO law was nailed to the cross in the context of Colossians 2:14. Our certificate of sins (the cheirographon) was nailed to the cross, not the ceremonial or the moral law.

This is why we have complete forgiveness (vs 13). This is why principalities and powers have no control or shame over us (15), this is why the leaders should not judge on HOW the festivals and Sabbaths are to be kept (elemental worship, fasting, abstaining and debasement of the body).

These things will not bring you closer to Christ. Only Christ's forgiveness of our debt will.

This is the whole message of Colossians 2...Not the validity of the law.

[John317]

It's true we aren't brought closer to God by obeying any of His commandments. It's only through a personal acceptance and relationship with Christ that brings us into close union with God. But if we willfully disobey them, it can certainly hurt our relationship with Christ, and, if we keep practicing willful sin, it can result in our finally being lost.

Should anyone be "judged" for not keeping the 7th commandment or the 5th or any other part of the moral law?

Col. 2: 16 says no one should say you are wrong in what you do on a Sabbath. Is that speaking of ceremonial sabbaths or of the weekly Sabbath or both?

[guibox]

It's true we aren't brought closer to God by obeying any of His commandments.

[John317]

The meaning becomes more clear if we notice that cheirographon is singular and dogmasin is plural. It is the cheirographon, the note of debt, that "was [singular] against us, which was [singular] contrary to us. And He has taken it [singular] out of the way, having nailed it [singular] to the cross." The last part of verse 14 is about the handwriting, not the requirements.

Michael Morrison - WCG

According to The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, the most common meaning of cheirographon is "a hand-written agreement," and in that case, Col. 2: 14 should read, "a hand-written agreement consisting of ordinances." (See p. 687, Moulton & Milligan)

Compare "a hand-written agreement consisting of ordinances" (Col. 2: 14)

with

"the Law of commandments consisting of ordinances" (Eph. 2: 15)

This is the way the translators of the following translations of Col. 2: 14 understood the word:

New International Version

having canceled the written code, with its regulations

NKJV--

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements

William Beck's Holy Bible In the Language of Today--

wiped out the Law's demands

Kenneth S. Wuest's Expanded Translation--

having obliterated the hand-written document consisting of ordinances

Quote:

As Bacchiocchi says:

Do you know of the source or reference given for those recent studies?

[Robert]

If Jesus is the model for all mankind, then did Jesus go to church on Sunday? [answer-No. His custom was to go to church on Sabbath. Luke 4:16].

But that's only 1 small part of the law. Why not go all the way?

If Jesus is the model for all mankind, then did Jesus live a life free from all self-seeking?

[Answer- Yes. As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." Luke 9:57,58 "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me [i.e., follow My example of self-emptying love]." Matt 19:21

Funny how the Sabbath is so greatly pushed to the forefront while selfishness & self-love runs rampant!

[guibox]

Quote:

As Bacchiocchi says:

The meaning of cheirographon, which occurs only once in Scripture (Col 2:14), has been clarified by recent studies on the usage of the term in apocalyptic and rabbinic literature. The term is used to denote the "record book of sins" or a "certificate of sin-indebtedness" but not the moral or ceremonial law.

Do you know of the source or reference given for those recent studies?

Actually Bacchiocchi has believed this for 30 years. He wrote about it in 'The Sabbath in the New Testament' I believe, as well as further reiterating it in 'Sabbath Under Crossfire', changing his stance from 'From Sabbath to Sunday' where he took the 'ceremonial law' stance. I respect a man that can see that the bible doesn't jive with previously held beliefs and change them when necessary. That is true Sola Scriptura

I would suggest taking a look at his newsletters or Sabbath books to find references. I know he refers to a scholar by the name of E. Lohse.

When Igoogled cheirographon, the first page of reference all pointed to this conclusion. The cheirographon was not the law but a 'certificate of indebtedness' of which the basis is the 'dogmasin'.

It's the same as people who say 'the law is done away with' we are no longer 'under the law'. The facts are that we are no longer under the curse of the law (cheirographon) but the law remains.

This is the same situation.

[Guest truthseeker007]

The sabbath is a sign for the biblical God of creation. IF you are worshipping on sabbath, you worship a false system with a false God. Then you are worshipping an imitation God, a wolve in sheep clothing. A system that is so diabolically intelligent and subtile in its deceptions that the average human being will never understand it. The bible says that those who are not written in the book of life will be amazed when they find out that the Catholic Church is the antichrist. It s our duty to represent christ, this is a hard job and i don t think i can do this all by myself, but i have to try and then believe that there is a God who might care about me, though that seems a little far fledged in my situation. I am convinced God loves other people and beings way more than me, i don t know why it s just something i know. Otherwise he would have reached out to me, the way i reach out to God.

[Guest truthseeker007]

sabbath=sunday

[Robert]

The sabbath is a sign for the biblical God of creation.

But the Sabbath of creation no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation. Hence the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless - it is worthless. Yes, the restored Sabbath in the new heavens and the new earth will point to this truth, but that is still future. The only reason for NT, NC Sabbath keeping is linked to the gospel. Get the right gospel and then your Sabbath keeping is genuine. Until then it is legalistic and a sham. Not speaking to you directly, but rather SDA as a whole.

Rob

[Guest truthseeker007]

'But the Sabbath of creation no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation'

IN the Old testament days and in Jesus time the creation wasn t perfect either. The sabbath is meant to give honour and glory to the creator of the universe. IF you break the 4th commandment you automatically break the first three commandments, because sunday is a mark of authority for the Catholic power chasers. It s just like in my kids days, you had those bullies whose only purpose was to dominate others. Now that s what the catholic church is doing, but it is very well covered in mystery and secrecy.

I don t quite understand the rest of your statements...

[Robert]

The sabbath is meant to give honour and glory to the creator of the universe.

If you read the Genesis & Exodus accounts the reason is not as you state. The reason one acknowledge the Sabbath was because it (the sabbath) symbolized a perfect and sinless creation. Read it, carefully and don't add any SDA spin!

Ex 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?], ...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

Now why did He rest? Did He need a coffee break? Was He tired? What did His resting mean?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.

God rested because His work was final...it was complete. He didn't start improving on it that 2nd Sunday. He eternally rested, until the fall. At that moment the Sabbath, as linked to creation, lost its significance!

Rob

[phkrause]

Good post TS. If Jesus didn't think that worshipping on the Sabbath wasn't important he would not have gone. Its not something you have to do. You do it because you love him, thats the motivation "if you love me keep my commandments". Can't be any plainer than that.

pk

[fccool]

Rob, I don't think anyone here would disagree with you on this point. Sabbath keeping is not a part of the Gospel, although it is a part of the Sanctification process. Jesus did not go around preaching Sabbath as pre-requisite... and neither should we. I think it was fairly clear from conversation with a Samaritan woman (not a Sabbath keeper) that Sabbath keeping was not the priority message for her at that point.

I certainly think that there is an "elitist" mind among some Adventist, just like there was elitist mind among the post Babylonian Jews... yet I would not ascribe such mind to every Adventist. The issue of Sabbath is something that you have to study out and be convinced by yourself. I'll leave separating of the goats and the sheep up to God.

I certainly think that there will be plenty Sunday keepers in heaven, just like there will be people who would say "But we kept your Sabbath and the law", and He would say... "Depart from me, I never knew you".

[phkrause]

Good post fccool.

pk

[Robert]

If Jesus didn't think that worshipping on the Sabbath wasn't important he would not have gone.

pk

That verse says "as His custom"....It doesn't say He went to worship. Besides, nothing in the Sabbath commandment, says anything about worship. That's SDA spin!

[John317]

I think it was fairly clear from conversation with a Samaritan woman (not a Sabbath keeper) that Sabbath keeping was not the priority message for her at that point.

The Samaritans keep the Sabbath.

Wikipedia--

Quote:

Like the Jews, Samaritans keep the Sabbath, circumcise male children, and follow strict rules regarding ritual purity. They celebrate Passover, Pentecost, Yom Kippur, and other important holidays, but not Purim or Hannukkah. The priesthood remains a central office in their faith. Samaritan lineage is patrilineal, while Jewish lineage is matrilineal. An English translation of the Samaritan Torah is pending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan

Do you know of any documented evidence that the Samaritans of Jesus' day did not keep the Sabbath?

[messenger]

Originally Posted By: guibox

The meaning becomes more clear if we notice that cheirographon is singular and dogmasin is plural. It is the cheirographon, the note of debt, that "was [singular] against us, which was [singular] contrary to us. And He has taken it [singular] out of the way, having nailed it [singular] to the cross." The last part of verse 14 is about the handwriting, not the requirements.

Michael Morrison - WCG

According to The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, the most common meaning of cheirographon is "a hand-written agreement," and in that case, Col. 2: 14 should read, "a hand-written agreement consisting of ordinances." (See p. 687, Moulton & Milligan)

Compare "a hand-written agreement consisting of ordinances" (Col. 2: 14)

with

"the Law of commandments consisting of ordinances" (Eph. 2: 15)

This is the way the translators of the following translations of Col. 2: 14 understood the word:

New International Version

having canceled the written code, with its regulations

NKJV--

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements

William Beck's Holy Bible In the Language of Today--

wiped out the Law's demands

Kenneth S. Wuest's Expanded Translation--

having obliterated the hand-written document consisting of ordinances

Quote:

As Bacchiocchi says:

Do you know of the source or reference given for those recent studies?

Amen brother your correct in your theology on this. Guibox is very confused on this and other issues as well, sometime it is just better to pray for them, and hope they will put pride away and open their mind to bible truth.

Many people are confused by the word Law as used by the Jewish Christians like Paul. The law was not just the Ten Commandments, It was the first five books of Moses, which of course included Exodus and the T C's but they the T.C.s were referred to as the Decalogue and not the law, the laws of Moses were writing in the "book of the law" also known as the "book of the covenant" and it was the hand written ordiances that was against them. It was against them because it was the old covenant based on obedience that could not save and because it was only a type. When Christ died laying down His dear life for the sinner, then He nailed that old covenant with those old laws to the cross by doing away with them and providing a better covenant, built on better promises through faith in Christ. amen!

[Woody]

Quote:

hope they will put pride away and open their mind to bible truth.

Well messenger ... I am working on that. I appreciate your 'message' of concern. Apparently ... only those who disagree with you need to put pride away and get an open mind to Bible Truth. How astounding.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Robert i want to help you, i think you are stuck in human reasoning. I don t know how to explain this, i just feel like you are using the bible uncounciously as a tool of distraction. I feel like you have had some bad experiences and you don t quite know what to do with it, so you start to wrestle with something very controversial. I believe we all do this, me in particular, but we shouldn t lose sight of common sense. The bible is composed of letters, but those letters are worthless if we cannot find out what kind of spirit/love those letters try to cover.

Now i just want to ask you, does it sound reasonable that the sabbath day is the Lord s day, meaning in that day we can rest and God spirit is present on this planet. I often experience relaxation starting at friday evening. Sabbath is a special day, not because it is written, but because it is true. However i firmly want to make clear that nobody has got the mark of the beast yet. There is no hierarchy in the human race, those who ll make it to heaven, don t actually deserve it, because Jesus pays their price. So let s not bash each other with scripture. I believe that the sabbath has a particular meaning, and by keeping it you are making a statement; i don t believe the pope is the replacer or representative of Christ, i don t believe Mary worship should be allowed, I don t believe that Christ church should ever get involved with satanic societies, communism and nazism, i don t believe priests are able to forgive sins, i don t believe holy men should be celibate, i don t believe we can buy our way into heaven, i don t believe in the evolution theory, i don t believe in this world, i don t believe in religious persecution in the name of God etc. I can say all these things by just keeping the sabbath. At least that s what it means for me. I think i ve found God just a little and i am so glad with that, that i wish to keep it holy. It s not because it s theoretically correct, or because i am taught by my parents to keep it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

If Jesus didn't think that worshipping on the Sabbath wasn't important he would not have gone.

pk

That verse says "as His custom"...

Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe, obeyed the commandments of God, and one of those commandments he kept was the 4th commandment. He left us an example of how to keep it. It was his habit to go to the synagogue for worship and prayer. When it says it was Jesus' habit, it means that this is what Jesus could be seen doing every Sabbath. Obeying God is a good custom, or habit, to get into.

The Sabbath is all about worship. It tells who we acknowledge to be our God.

It was a day for holy assembly (Lev. 23: 1-3), a day of gladness (Num. 10: 10; comp. Hosea 2: 11) "a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable (Is. 58: 13).

Quote:

It doesn't say He went to worship.

When you read the description of what Jesus did there (Luke 4: 16-21), it's obvious that He was worshipping God. It was to pray, sings Psalms, read Scripture, and hear the word of God, just as in Acts 13: 42-44. It is well known that the Jews worship God in the synagogue on the Sabbath day. They've been doing it since long before the time of Christ.

Quote:

Besides, nothing in the Sabbath commandment, says anything about worship. That's SDA spin!

Rev. 14: 7 calls all the people of the world to worship God, and it quotes from the Sabbath commandment of Ex. 20.

Obeying God by resting on the Sabbath, keeping it holy, and remembering that He is our Creator and redeemer is the very essence of worship. In addition to that, God gave specific directions that the Sabbath is to be a day of holy convocation or assembly. Lev. 23: 1-3.

Quote:

The Sabbath was hallowed at the creation. As ordained for man, it had its origin when "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. Peace brooded over the world; for earth was in harmony with heaven. "God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good;" and He rested in the joy of His completed work. Gen. 1:31.

Because He had rested upon the Sabbath, "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,"--set it apart to a holy use. He gave it to Adam as a day of rest. It was a memorial of the work of creation, and thus a sign of God's power and His love. The Scripture says, "He hath made His wonderful works to be remembered."..... since the Sabbath is a memorial of the work of creation, it is a token of the love and power of Christ.

The Sabbath calls our thoughts to nature, and brings us into communion with the Creator...... "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." This is the message written in nature, which the Sabbath is appointed to keep in memory. When the Lord bade Israel hallow His Sabbaths, He said, "They shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am Jehovah your God." Isa. 40:18-29; 41:10; 45:22; Ezek. 20:20, R. V...... God designed that its observance should designate them as His worshipers. It was to be a token of their separation from idolatry, and their connection with the true God. But in order to keep the Sabbath holy, men must themselves be holy. Through faith they must become partakers of the righteousness of Christ. When the command was given to Israel, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy," the Lord said also to them, "Ye shall be holy men unto Me." Ex. 20:8; 22:31. Only thus could the Sabbath distinguish Israel as the worshipers of God. DA 281-283

[guibox]

Amen brother your correct in your theology on this. Guibox is very confused on this and other issues as well, sometime it is just better to pray for them, and hope they will put pride away and open their mind to bible truth.

'sob', 'choke', 'sniffle'...you'd pray for me??? For me and my apostasy that I may see the light? How touching!

I can prove to you from the bible everything I believe. So far what I've seen from you is mostly quotes from EGW. It has been shown that many scholars agree with me. Don't be so sanctimonious that you think I'm simply pulling this out of the air. Context, context, context something your interpretation seems to be missing.

[Robert]

Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe, obeyed the commandments of God, and one of those commandments he kept was the 4th commandment.