The Sabbath: Is it only a shadow???

[John317]

Old Testament use of iniquity--

Strong's Number: 205 aw)

Original Word Word Origin

aw) from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

'aven aw-ven'

Parts of Speech TWOT

Noun Masculine 48a

Definition

trouble, wickedness, sorrow

trouble, sorrow

idolatry

trouble of iniquity, wickedness

Translated Words

KJV (78) - affliction, 3; evil, 1; false, 1; idol, 1; iniquity, 47; mischief, 3; mourners, 1; mourning, 1; nought, 1; sorrow, 1; unjust, 1; unrighteous, 2; vain, 1; vanity, 6; wicked(ness), 8;

NAS (77) - affliction, 1; distress, 1; evil, 4; false, 1; harm, 1; idol, 1; iniquity, 37; misfortune, 1; mourners', 1; mourning, 1; sorrow, 1; trouble, 2; unrighteous, 1; vanity, 1; wicked, 6; wickedness, 15; wrong, 1; wrongdoers, 1;

[John317]

Old Testament use of "transgression"--

Strong's Number: 4604 l(m

Original Word Word Origin

l(m from (04603)

Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling

Ma`al mah'-al

Parts of Speech TWOT

Noun Masculine 1230a

Definition

unfaithful or treacherous act, trespass

against man

against God

Translated Words

KJV (29) - falsehood, 1; grievously, 1; sore, 1; transgression, 6; trespass, 17; trespassed, 2; very, 1;

NAS (25) - falsehood, 1; treachery, 2; trespass, 1; unfaithful, 3; unfaithful act, 4; unfaithful deeds, 1; unfaithfully, 6; unfaithfulness, 6; very unfaithful, 1;

[fccool]

I am going to have to insist that you define "transgression"....before I can continue this discussion....Also, while you are defining things, also define "iniquity"....

please...

You can simply look at the root and the pre-fix. It's kind of a common sense for trans(over) gress(to move, to act). So it's to cross over something... in Biblical context to cross over the Law.

Iniquity is generally buffered to as a morally objectionable behavior... or wickedness.

Either way, Bible is clear on the subject regardless of our definition:

Romans 4:15 (YLT)

... for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression.

Anotherwords, transgression can not exist without the law. The sin is transgression, and transgression results iniquity. Yet, being born in iniquity is not the same as iniquity is found in you.

Being born into sin is like being born into poverty. The poverty nature (environment) is there and you may be affected by it physically, but it's an external characteristic, not an internal/inbred one.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

I am going to have to insist that you define "transgression"....before I can continue this discussion....Also, while you are defining things, also define "iniquity"....

please...

You can simply look at the root and the pre-fix. It's kind of a common sense for trans(over) gress(to move, to act). So it's to cross over something... in Biblical context to cross over the Law.

Iniquity is generally buffered to as a morally objectionable behavior... or wickedness.

Either way, Bible is clear on the subject regardless of our definition:

Romans 4:15 (YLT)

... for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression.

Anotherwords, transgression can not exist without the law. The sin is transgression, and transgression results iniquity. Yet, being born in iniquity is not the same as iniquity is found in you.

Being born into sin is like being born into poverty. The poverty nature (environment) is there and you may be affected by it physically, but it's an external characteristic, not an internal/inbred one.

[John317]

So, letting me sum this up,

Sin is a transgression of biblical law

Transgression is to willfully cross over a [biblical] boundary

Iniquity is morally objectionable behavior.

Now, to logically mess things up a bit, [please note]

**Sin is to willfully cross over a boundary.**

Which means that Transgression is Sin AND Sin is Transgression.

Which also means that we have two words in the english language that mean the exacty same thing....Which creates circular reasoning....

and if I know anything about the english language, there are NEVER two words that mean the exact same thing....

So, something is wrong with YOUR biblical definition....

Neil, you might need to do a complete word study. There are about 10 different Hebrew words for sin, and the word translated "iniquity" is just one of them. Many of the words for "sin" are used interchangeably. In fact, there are many words translated "iniquity." They all have virtually the same meaning. Parallel passages show that there is not a lot of difference between "sin" and "iniquity." The idea that "sin" is transgression and that "iniquity" is our sinful condition is wrong. To see this, all you have to do is compare the many Bible verses that use the word.

Look and see how the word "iniquity" is used in the book of Psalms--

Ps 5:5 -

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

Ps 6:8 -

Depart from me, all you who do iniquity, For the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping.

Ps 7:14 - mischief and brings forth falsehood.

Ps 10:7 -

His mouth is full of curses and deceit and oppression; Under his tongue is mischief and wickedness.

Ps 14:4 -

Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?

Ps 28:3 -

Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

Ps 36:3 -

The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit; He has ceased to be wise and to do good.

Ps 36:4 -

He plans wickedness upon his bed; He sets himself on a path that is not good; He does not despise evil.

Ps 36:12 -

There the doers of iniquity have fallen; They have been thrust down and cannot rise.

Ps 41:6 -

And when he comes to see me, he speaks falsehood; His heart gathers wickedness to itself; When he goes outside, he tells it.

Ps 53:4 -

Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread And have not called upon God?

Ps 55:3 -

Because of the voice of the enemy, Because of the pressure of the wicked; For they bring down trouble upon me And in anger they bear a grudge against me.

Ps 55:10 -

Day and night they go around her upon her walls, And iniquity and mischief are in her midst.

Ps 56:7 -

Because of wickedness, cast them forth, In anger put down the peoples, O God!

Ps 59:2 -

Deliver me from those who do iniquity And save me from men of bloodshed.

Ps 59:5 -

You,O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, Awake to punish all the nations; Do not be gracious to any who are treacherous in iniquity. Selah.

Ps 64:2 -

Hide me from the secret counsel of evildoers, From the tumult of those who do iniquity,

Ps 66:18 -

IfI regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

Ps 90:10 -

As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away.

Ps 92:7 -

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

Ps 92:9 -

For, behold, Your enemies, O LORD, For, behold, Your enemies will perish; All who do iniquity will be scattered.

Ps 94:4 -

They pour forth words, they speak arrogantly; All who do wickedness vaunt themselves.

Ps 94:16 -

Who will stand up for me against evildoers? Who will take his stand for me against those who do wickedness?

Ps 94:23 -

He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil; The LORD our God will destroy them.

Ps 101:8 -

Every morningI will destroy all the wicked of the land, So as to cut off from the city of the LORD all those who do iniquity.

Ps 119:133 -

Establish my footsteps in Your word, And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me.

Ps 125:5 -

But as for those who turn aside to their crooked ways, The LORD will lead them away with the doers of iniquity. Peace be upon Israel.

Ps 141:4 -

Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice deeds of wickedness With men who do iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies.

Ps 141:9 -

Keep me from the jaws of the trap which they have set for me, And from the snares of those who do iniquity.

[fccool]

I think you are confused what circular reasoning is. Circular reasoning logical fallacy is a fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. I'm not doing that. A good example of circular reasoning is : "How do you know that it is a 5 million year old fossil?" "Because it is in a 5 million year old rock".

There are plenty of the words in English language that describe same things. In fact, that's how we learn language... but describing things in their relative terms to other things. You could call that a circular knowledge, but in this case all knowledge could be circular, because it draws on many assumptions of others. That's why I don't get very concerned about accused of circular reasoning, because people who make the accusatory remark are engaging in very same thing.

Addressing the latter though...

Talk - Speak .......... - two words, describing the same thing. There're may be subtle differences, but generally, there are plenty of words in English language that means the same thing. You can explain one in terms of other.

If I told you that you are sinner, and did not explain what it means.... how would you know what I'm talking about? To commit sin is to commit a transgressions. What is being transgressed? God's law. It's as simple as that. If you going to tell people that they are sinning without describing what it means, we won't get far.

In like manner, if I describe someone as being obese, there are certain characteristics to be met. A person has to weigh certain amount, and look a certain way. Likewise, if you say that people are sinners from birth, I ask... how? To sin, one has to transgress the law. How can an infant transgress the law by simply being born? It's a simple logic that you are making very complicating.

[John317]

What does it mean to say "evil [ iniquity] is in their hearts"?

Compare Ezekiel 28: 15-- "until unrighteousness, or iniquity, was found in you"

Notice that 'aven [iniquity] is translated in three different ways in Ps. 28: 3--

Ps 28:3 -

Do not drag me away with the wicked And with those who work iniquity, Who speak peace with their neighbors, While evil is in their hearts.

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 205

Original Word Transliterated Word

aw) 'aven

Translated Words

affliction, distress, evil, false, harm, idol, iniquity, misfortune, mourners', mourning, sorrow, trouble, unrighteous, vanity, wicked, wickedness, wrong, wrongdoers

[Neil D]

Not so...

Talk is to communicate idea, a lecture...the emphasis on talk is ideas communicated

Speak is to utter a word, to use your vocal cords and communicate...the emphasis is using the vocal cords to communiccate...

Granted, they over lap in other areas in how they are used, but the root meanings are very specific.

Same with Hebrews and with Greek....Concepts that are reduced to one word ie Sin, transgression are very specific as to what they mean...they can be used interchangeably at times, but the bible is very specific in what is communicated. Otherwise, it don't matter what day of the week the Sabbath is on, you just need to worship God on one day per week...Is that what you want? I don't think so...

You have a circular arguement in that your definition of sin and transgression are the same. John makes a great point with Iniquity, that is, something that is IN THE HEART...not morally wrong behavior. "Sin is trangression and transgression is sin." This concept is NOT true.

Sin IS NOT excusively transgression, although Transgress IS excusively sin...

Is God's ideal for your life sin? If not, how do you define God's ideal for your life? Is it soley by the 10 commandments? What if God wanted you to be a minister and you became a mathmatician instead. Is that God's ideal for your life? If not, then you have sinned. And, may I add, you did it without transgressing any of the 10 commandments! So, technecally, you lived a life that could have been perfect, and still fall short of God's idea. Guess what? That's what the Pharasees were pushing as righteousness... They were, in one sense, perfect, and in another sense, they were morally bankrupt. And they rationalized their actions of killing Christ..."It is expediant for one man to die to save the nation"....and they did it in the name of righteousness. And it was wrong, wasn't it?

So, God can wish that you be a plumber, and you become a minister...and you lived a life without violating the 10 commandments....and yet, you have sinned. You have fallen short of God's ideal for your life. This is the concept expressed in Roman 3

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

.

That is your definition of sin...not living up to God's ideal.

[John317]

The Hebrew word for "iniquity" as used in Ezekiel 28: 15: "until iniquity was found in you"--

"'evel" [iniquity] is something people "do" or "commit." If we are "wicked," it is because we habitually commit wicked acts. Not all people do this. The righteous man does not habitually commit wicked acts like the wicked man does, even though they both have the same fallen nature. The difference has to do with character and choice, not nature. Compare Ez. 18: 24, 26.

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 5766

Original Word Transliterated Word

lw( `evel

Translated Words

iniquity, perverseness, unjust, unjustly, unrighteously, unrighteousness, variant, wicked, wickedly, wickedness

The KJV Strong's Version - 9 Verses

Eze 3:20 -

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, andI lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood willI require at thine hand.

Eze 18:8 -

He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Eze 18:24 -

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eze 18:26 -

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 28:15 -

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:18 -

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore willI bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, andI will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eze 33:13 -

WhenI shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Eze 33:15 -

If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 33:18 -

When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

[fccool]

Neil, Bible gives a broader definition of sin in 1st John 3:4. "All unrighteousness is sin". Yet you are running into some problems when you attempt to define sin apart from the law or boundaries.

Neither there is an implication that will of God is a dot that you have to land on perfectly, otherwise you may be committing sin. Do you think that maybe, perhaps maybe, God gives you a choice to be either a doctor or a minister? Will of God exists within the boundaries of His law.

Example: There are plenty of women in this world. Do you think it would be a sin for me to marry the one of my choice, as long as she likewise loves God? Not according to your mentality. Based on your mentality I have to search the world for the one that was in God's will, and if I don't find the right one... I'm committing the sin. Somehow I don't think this is the way things are.

Law is a standard by which we are judged, both in secular and spiritual courts. The standard of right and wrong defines righteousness and iniquity. Without standard these are two meaningless words.

Otherwise, please let me know if there is any other way of determine when you are sinning, or if you can possibly sin without breaking God's law.

[Neil D]

John,

how does "avon" translate in Isaiah 53:6?

Does it not translate to "depravity"? If so, how is the "depravity of us all" limited to behavior? I don't think it is, as other scholars, more versed than I have emphasized that this type of "sin" is inherant, not just an action on our part, but rather, if I may reinterpret it as selfishness.

1. depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity

iniquity

guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)

consequence of or punishment for iniquity

[Neil D]

Neil, Bible gives a broader definition of sin in 1st John 3:4. "All unrighteousness is sin". Yet you are running into some problems when you attempt to define sin apart from the law or boundaries.

[Woody]

Neil. When will you learn that Dictionary Definitions are not accepted here on the Forum.

[John317]

Good question.

Check out the way that word is used in Isaiah--

Especially compare "transgressions," "sins," and "iniquities," in the parallels. Hebrew parallelism restates the same concept in different words.

Isa 59:12 -

For our transgressions [6588] are multiplied before You, And our sins [2403] testify against us; For our transgressions [6588] are with us, And we know our iniquities [5771]:

Isa 5:18 -

Woe to those who drag iniquity with the cords of falsehood, And sin [2403] as if with cart ropes;

Isa 13:11 -

Thus I will punish the world for its evil [7451] And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Isa 27:9 -

Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin [2404]: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand.

Isa 43:24 -

"You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins [2403], You have wearied Me with your iniquities.

Isa 50:1 -

Thus says the LORD, "Where is the certificate of divorce By whichI have sent your mother away? Or to whom of My creditors didI sell you? Behold, you were sold for your iniquities, And for your transgressions [6588] your mother was sent away.

Isa 53:5 -

But He was pierced through for our transgressions [6588], He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Isa 59:2 -

But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins [2403] have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Isa 59:3 -

For your hands are defiled with blood And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness [5766].

Isa 59:12 -

For our transgressions [6588] are multiplied before You, And our sins [2403] testify against us; For our transgressions [6588] are with us, And we know our iniquities [5771]:

The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 5771

Original Word Transliterated Word

aw( `avon

Translated Words

blame, guilt, guilty, iniquities, iniquity, punishment, punishment for the iniquity, punishment for their iniquity

The rest of the verses in Isaiah using the Hebrew word 'avon--

The NAS Strong's Version - 24 Verses

Isa 1:4 -

Alas, sinful [2398] nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers [7489], Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the LORD, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.

Isa 6:7 -

He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin [2403] is forgiven ."

Isa 14:21 -

"Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter Because of the iniquity of their fathers. They must not arise and take possession of the earth And fill the face of the world with cities ."

Isa 22:14 -

But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die ," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Isa 26:21 -

For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.

Isa 30:13 -

Therefore this iniquity will be to you Like a breach about to fall, A bulge in a high wall, Whose collapse comes suddenly in an instant,

Isa 33:24 -

And no resident will say, "I am sick "; The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.

Isa 40:2 -

"Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the LORD'S hand Double for all her sins [2403] ."

Isa 53:5 -

But He was pierced through for our transgressions [6588], He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Isa 53:6 -

All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Isa 53:11 -

As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Isa 57:17 -

"Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

Isa 64:6 - all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Isa 64:7 -

There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Isa 64:9 -

Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD, Nor remember iniquity forever; Behold, look now, all of us are Your people.

Isa 65:7 -

Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together ," says the LORD. "Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom ."

[fccool]

Sigh.... (pulling out his hamartiology notes)

Rom 4:15 "Where there is no law there is no transgression".

Rom 5:13 "Sin is not imputed where there is no law".

Rom 7:8 "Apart from the law sin is dead".

In order to sin, one must be in disregard of, or in disobedience to, a law that God has put in force.

Where I think you get confused is the idea that God's law is somehow limited to 10 commandments. I'd like to make a couple observations for you:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them...

.... Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

...........

"Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."

I won't bother putting up other examples in hope that you get what I'm saying here. Direct command from God = Law. Hope that clears that out for ya.

Now, moving on...

Quote:

12for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

13for not the hearers of the law [are] righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --

14For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law -- to themselves are a law;

What he is saying in essence is that although there is no law against certain things, these are self evident in natural laws that God built the universe in mind. Laws are in essence rules. Rules are standards, without standards... no idea of right and wrong. Thus, for you to sin, you have to transgress (or ignore) some kind of standard. Moral behavior is a standard.

There are two kinds of laws... one that you are aware of, and the other that you are not aware of. The fact that you are not aware of certain laws (that these are not given to you to live by directly) does not invalidate the premise... that it is wrong not to live by these laws.

So, what you are simply doing is saying that because these laws are not written set in stone ... in essence these are not laws, but some kind of "principles" or right and wrong. I would say that these are very much the same. You can't separate 10 Commandments from natural law or from physical rules (i.e. gravity and etc). All of these play guiding role in our lives, thus disregarding these would go against the natural design of this world.

Which, one again brings us back to the idea of sin being transgression of law and thus unrighteousness, because without a standard righteousness is a meaningless word.

[fccool]

I see you bought the Calvinism idea of Total Depravity... well, I'd like you to explain to me how is it that a totally depraved men such as you and I would be interested in spiritual matters and the ideas of right and wrong? After all the depravity is total.

I think that it's fair to assume that command by God to seek the truth and seek God implies that we would have some natural desire and ability to do so... yet the doctrine of total depravity would say otherwise. That's where we really get a screwed up view on why Christ had to die in the first place.

[John317]

"Total depravity" is based on Augustine's original sin doctrine and means that no one can possibly obey God's commandments, even with the Holy Spirit in the life.

It teaches that sin is primarily nature, and of course we can do nothing about our nature, so we can't do anything about whether we sin or sin. We can't choose to do otherwise than sin. On this view, we are sinning simply by being alive.

But if you look at all the passages in the Bible about sin and iniquity, etc., you will see that without a doubt the Bible's primary view of sin is that it is a choice, not nature. The Bible often commands us not to sin. So sin is obviously a matter of choice. God doesn't condemn anyone simply for being born and having a fallen nature. If that was the case, Christ would be condemned because he was born with the same nature that his ancestors Adam, Abraham, and David had.

It's a major difference between SDAs and groups that are heavily influenced by Calvin. They believe that since all humanity is depraved, God had to choose who would be saved and who would be lost, since we have no real choice in the matter.

[Neil D]

Sigh.... (pulling out his hamartiology notes)

Rom 4:15 "Where there is no law there is no transgression".

Rom 5:13 "Sin is not imputed where there is no law".

Rom 7:8 "Apart from the law sin is dead".

In order to sin, one must be in disregard of, or in disobedience to, a law that God has put in force.

[Neil D]

I see you bought the Calvinism idea of Total Depravity... well, I'd like you to explain to me how is it that a totally depraved men such as you and I would be interested in spiritual matters and the ideas of right and wrong? After all the depravity is total.

I think that it's fair to assume that command by God to seek the truth and seek God implies that we would have some natural desire and ability to do so... yet the doctrine of total depravity would say otherwise. That's where we really get a screwed up view on why Christ had to die in the first place.

See, I told you that it would keep you busy.....

No, I dont believe in total depravity. I do believe our natures have changed/adapted to selfishness. And as I have said, selfishness has some good and a lot of bad in it...And the best old english counterpart is called 'iniquity', and it's refering to all the bad of selfishness.

And John, some of those passages can be interpreted as selfishness. I am going to be blunt and say that you are not being totally honest in your interpretation of iniquity.

And if I had to live under all the rules that you guys are espousing from your theology, I would rebel just because of that alone....it's a dysfunctional relationship...and it's based upon knowledge...and rules...and laws...and what you know.....not faith...not trust...not relationships....not Who you KNOW....

[Robert]

Sin is a transgression of the law... it's a clear definition. You can't be born "sinful"....

Let's say an infant is born and dies shortly after. Does that infant need a Savior?

Rob

[Robert]

Here's the thing, Neil. Traditional/Historic SDA reduce sin to only the transgression of the law, but as you know it is much more.

Until they realize what sin really is they can never truly accept Christ as their righteousness. They will always attempt salvation partially by their goodness.

The Dynamics of the

Everlasting Gospel

By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

Chapter 1 – The Sin Problem

Since the gospel is God’s power to save men from sin, it is important that we begin our study with a brief outline of the sin problem before we turn to its solution which God has prepared for us in Christ.

It is only against the background of man’s total sinfulness and depravity that the gospel of Christ becomes meaningful. The gospel, when accepted and applied to our lives, may be defined by the formula: “Not I, but Christ” [Galatians 2:20]. This formula is expressed in the New Testament in various ways [1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 3:3, 8-9].

The most difficult part of this formula when it comes to its practical application is the first half, “Not I.” The reason for this is because we fallen sinful human beings are born ego-centric or self-centered, and naturally want to live indepentant of God [Romans 1:20-23]. A true understanding of the sin problem is the only sure way of destroying all confidence in self and turning to Christ as our only righteousness, hope, and surety. The following is a brief history and analysis of the sin problem.

1. Origin of Sin

* Ezekiel 28:14, 15. Sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucifer, the head of the angelic beings. The Bible does not explain how sin could begin with a perfect being, because sin is unexplainable. Hence, it is referred to as “the mystery of iniquity.”

* Isaiah 14:12-14. The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

* Romans 7:7. At the heart of every sin is covetousness or self-seeking. Lust originated with the devil and is not of God [see 1 John 2:15-16].

* John 8:44. In heaven, Lucifer (who became Satan) coveted the position of Christ and therefore desired to murder Him so that he might get Him out of the way (murder in God’s eyes begins in the mind, see Matthew 5:21-22).

* Revelation 12:7-9. Sin in the heart of Lucifer led to war in heaven. Satan and the angels who sided with him were defeated and were cast out of their heavenly home.

2. Development of Sin

While sin originated in the mind of Lucifer in heaven, it was never allowed to develop in heaven. It was on this earth that Satan and his angels developed sin. Let us see how this was done:

* Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

* Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

* John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

* 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

* 1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

* 2 Peter 2:19. Man defeated by Satan is in bondage (slavery) to him [John 8:34; Romans 6:17].

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

In the New Testament and especially in the book of Revelation the term “Babylon” is used as a symbol to represent the spiritual kingdom of this world which is under Satan and is in opposition to God’s kingdom and His people [Revelation 14:8, 17:3-6; 18:1-3]. The basis of this symbol is founded in literal Babylon of the Old Testament, the capital of the once-greatest empire this world has ever known [read Daniel 2]. According to Dan. 4:30, the great city of Babylon was built on the principle of self-love and, therefore, represents a fitting symbol of Satan’s kingdom. In contrast, “Jerusalem,” which represents Christ’s kingdom, is from above and is called “the holy city” [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 21:10].

Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good (this is especially designed to be a trap for Christians), but at the end of the world, when Satan will be completely exposed, it will be seen that the whole world (good and bad) worships the dragon “that deceived the whole world” [Revelation 12:9; 13:3-4]. God has allowed Satan to have his own way and develop sin in this world for some 6,000 years. But the time has come when Satan and his kingdom must be exposed and destroyed forever [2 Peter 3:10-13; Psalm 92:7-9].

But for the fallen human race, held in captivity by Satan, God has made a way of escape [2 Peter 3:9]. This is the Good News of the gospel which He wants all to know and receive. According to Matthew 25:34, God has prepared the heavenly kingdom for men “from the foundation of the world,” while verse 41 indicates that the destroying fires of hell have been prepared only “for the devil and his angels.” According to John 3:16, “God so loved the world [the human race] that he gave his only begotten Son,” so that none may perish, but instead all may have eternal life. Those who respond in faith to God’s love manifested in the gift of His Son will experience the deliverence from the condemnation which is resting on Satan and his kingdom [Romans 8:1; John 5:24].

3. Sin Defined

Before we can proceed to study the gospel it would be well to define sin more fully so that the good news of salvation will be meaningful to us. The Bible uses some 12 different words to define sin; but putting these together we may categorize sin into three basic concepts. These three are all expressed in Ps. 51:2-3. They are: iniquity, sin, and transgression. We will consider each one of them separately.

Iniquity

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5]. Our next study will cover this in greater detail.

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4].

* Matthew 7:22, 23. Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him? [see also Luke 13:25-28.]

* Philippians 3:3-9. The converted Paul recognizes the worthlessness of his self-righteousness and willingly exchanges it for the righteousness of Christ which is by faith.

Once we understand the true meaning of iniquity we will realize that nothing good dwells in us [Romans 7:18] and we will begin to “hunger and thirst” after the righteousness of Christ so freely offered to us in the gospel.

Sin

The actual meaning of this word is “missing the mark.” In Judges 20:16 the Hebrew word sin (translated in the KJV as “not miss”) is used true to its meaning. Used in a spiritual sense, sin is missing the divine mark or coming “short of the glory of God,” which is His selfless love or agape [Romans 3:23].

Since all men are born spiritually “bent” (shapen in iniquity), it is not difficult to see what Romans 3:10, 12 says: there is none righteous and no one who does good. Man’s sinful condition makes it impossible for him to do anything but sin, unless he has a Savior. That is why the gospel is man’s only hope of salvation. While man does have a free will to choose between accepting Christ’s righteousness offered in the gospel or rejecting it, he does not have a choice between doing sin or geniune righteousness. Man is born a slave to sin and no matter how hard he wills or tries, he will fall short of the divine mark [Romans 7:15-24]. For further study read the following texts: Job 15:14-16; Psalm 14:2, 3; Isaiah 1:4-6; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23.

Transgression

This word means a deliberate violation of the law, or willful disobedience. Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. In the spiritual realm, transgression is the violation of the moral law, or ten commandments of God [see 1 John 3:4]. A knowledge of God’s law makes sin to be “transgression.” Note the following:

* Galatians 3:19. The law was given to make sin into transgression.

* James 2:9. The law convinces us we are transgressors.

* Romans 3:20. Through the law we have the knowledge of sin.

* Romans 5:20. The law did not solve the sin problem but made it “abound” all the more.

* Romans 7:7-13. The law exposes our sinful condition and reveals our total bankruptcy with regards to righteousness.

Since sin is a deceiver, it would be impossible for sinful man to fully realize his condition unless God revealed it to him. This He has done by giving the law. The law was never given as a means of salvation or to deal with sin. The law is incapable of producing righteousness in us because of man’s sinful state [Romans 8:3]; the only way that man can be saved is in Christ. The Scriptures clearly state that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” [Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16; 3:21-22; 5:4]. It cannot make man holy and good because he is sold under sin [Romans 7:12, 14]. But God gave the law to sinful man to be “our schoolmaster [or escort] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” [Galatians 3:24].

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Sin is a transgression of the law... it's a clear definition. You can't be born "sinful"....

Let's say an infant is born and dies shortly after. Does that infant need a Savior?

Rob

boy, it got awful quite! Even EGW equates having indwelling sin as "sin":

-BC- 3SM

-TI- Selected Messages Book 3

-CN- 52

-CT- Sinlessness and Salvation

-PR- 04

-PG- 355

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.

[melvin mccarty]

"does that infant need a savior"....NO...mel

[fccool]

And if I had to live under all the rules that you guys are espousing from your theology, I would rebel just because of that alone....it's a dysfunctional relationship...and it's based upon knowledge...and rules...and laws...and what you know.....not faith...not trust...not relationships....not Who you KNOW....

[guibox]

Never mind that this topic is gone WAAAAY off.

Perhaps we should start two new threads:

"What is Sin"

and

"Nature of Christ: pre or post fall?"

As for the first one, sin is more than just willful sin. It is throughout our very natures. The most holy person on earth is still the vilest sinner like every other criminal. Christ could have none of that..thus my view on the second question..

Personally I go to 'pre fall'. The entire methodology of the OT sacrificial system demands it to be fulfilled in Christ.