New important thread--must be answered!!!

[melvin mccarty]

Yes and we need to think how the creation happened. It had to start at some point on the earth's surface and continue as the earth turned for 24 hours, Then the second day started at the same point on the earth's surface as the first day. Is that clear?...mel

[Taylor]

Of course it is clear that the first day was 24 hours and then the second day began. What isn't clear is why do you need to know when Creation is when you have the confirmation of what day the Sabbath is by Jesus keeping it when he lived on this earth. I just don't see a need to go back past that date to prove when creation happened except to realize that the Sabbath was always kept by groups of people throughout all the history of man-kind. I think God's law is clear and easy enough that the most uneducated person who could never have the ability to figure out the day of creation, can still know God's will for his life when God says "Remember the Sabbath day....."

But I know you are probably tired of my opinion on the matter.

[melvin mccarty]

Thing is Taylor Jesus lived in Palestine all the time He was on earth. No problem there but that fact simply does not affect the isssue of how to calculate dates in China or Australia. The question still remains...where (at what londitude) does day one turn into day two...scripturally?

Can you be sure that if Jesus had gone to India he would still have been West of that point where day one became day two?...mel

[Planey]

Scripture is completely silent on this question.

God apparently was also silent on this question when revealing many things through EGW.

It would seem, then that we should make our own reasoned judgment on this issue.

I personally have no problem with using the human, secular concept of the International Date Line.

A related question: What would you do if you lived within the Arctic or Antarctic Circles, during December/January or June/July (when the sun either does not set or does not rise for weeks at a time?

Graeme

[melvin mccarty]

As EGW said...one should not live there...:-)...mel

[Taylor]

Thing is Taylor Jesus lived in Palestine all the time He was on earth. No problem there but that fact simply does not affect the isssue of how to calculate dates in China or Australia. The question still remains...where (at what londitude) does day one turn into day two...scripturally?

Can you be sure that if Jesus had gone to India he would still have been West of that point where day one became day two?...mel

He didn't need to make sure of any such thing. He kept Sabbath when it Sabath was in India. If he had gone to Australia or the USA he would have kept the Sabbath when it was Sabbath in those places. It really doesn't have to be that complicated, that is my point.

It seems to me that your point is that it is impossible to know when the Sabbath is, therefore it simply doesn't matter as long as you keep one day in seven as a rest day.

[melvin mccarty]

No Taylor that is not my point at all. I said that IF you accept the international date line as the criteria for when the day changes you are actually saying that one in seven is ok. There was no date line prior to mid 1800's. It has no legal standing but is only a convenience issue. The line is not straight and has been moved several times in places. Please research the issue. There are excellent articles available and you can use any search engine. ...mel

[Planey]

Look, we live on what is basically a rotating sphere. There has to be a "date line" on it somewhere.

Now I take aboard your comment that originally, by virtue of God declaring "the evening and the morning were the first day" etc that there was at this time a date line somewhere on the surface of the globe.

Now what we have been asking you is: Do you have any Biblical evidence for where that original dateline was? or even: Do you have any indication from the Red Books as to where that line was?

If not (and so far you have just repeatedly stated the problem without suggesting any solution) then what is wrong with adopting the line as currently defined? There are good reasons for the "kinks and twists" in the line -- primarily to avoid having the line bisect individual islands or groups of islands, thus avoiding the problem of having adjoining communities being on different days.

Now if you have a better suggestion, let's here it. If not, give us a rest.

Graeme

[melvin mccarty]

No I am not proposing a resolution to the problem. I am saying that unless we can determine where the original date line was then we cannot be dogmatic about sabbath observance because we just dont know for sure. We cannot be certain that what is called Saturday in China is actually that. I am pleading for less dogmatism...mel

[phkrause]

Well in that case it would have to be where the garden of eden originated. Where God first created man. Which from all indications is in Iraq, if I'm not mistaken. If that is not correct maybe someone else would know. But that is what I've always been taught, or heard I should say. I will ask Dr. Dean Davis tomorrow when if I see him. We still have the example of Jesus when he was here on earth.

pk

[True-believer]

No I am not proposing a resolution to the problem. I am saying that unless we can determine where the original date line was then we cannot be dogmatic about sabbath observance because we just dont know for sure. We cannot be certain that what is called Saturday in China is actually that. I am pleading for less dogmatism...mel

Well In Australia, when it is Sabbath here--(Saturday)...

It is actually Preparation Day--(Friday) in America...

If it is Saturday in America... then it is Sunday in Australia.

So, in other words, we can celebrate Sabbath on Saturday in Australia... and...

We can celebrate Sabbath on Sunday to be doing it the same time the Americans celebrate their Sabbath on Saturday...

So, you can say that we can have one, two, or more Sabbaths each and every week if we want to have it the same time as everyone else.

That is my 2cents worth....

TB

[phkrause]

Mel, I printed out this thread and brought it to SS today. I spoke with Dr. Dean Davis, he said he would read through the info and get back to me.

pk

[BobRyan]

They changed the International Dateline around the Marshall Islands moving it "one way" so that they would be on the same "day" as the U.S when we started setting up bases there.

But later they decided that it made no sense for the Marshall Islands to be on a "different day" than all of their neighbors so they "moved it back".

this caused a lot of stress for SDAs who for a while were keeping Sabbath what others around them called Sunday while some others were put in a position of celebrating it on what was called "Friday" after the move back.

in Christ,

Bob

[melvin mccarty]

Exactly and Alaska switched at one point also. And the Phillipenes. No if the exact original 24 hour sabbath must be determined let us search for it starting in the middle East. It would have to be a consistent meridian when the first day's light appeared. It cannot be a line which can be moved for convenience.

Don't read me wrong here. I am not discussing the validity of the seventh-day sabbath! I am discussing the inconsistency of useing the "date line" to judge where on the earth's surface the first day ends and the second day begins (scripturally). The rationalle for having a date line is fine ...no problem there! ....mel

[whbae]

I think the Sabbath hour should be a regional matter. This way regardless what time a certain area is the sunset to sunrise would not change. Some where in this world has to decide by the local time to determin the begining and ending of the sabbath. For instance, the artic region, like northern Norway the sunless nights lasts about three months while the nightless summer days last a long time. The local people should decide when to keep the sabbath in those areas. When I am in America I have to keep the sabbath with the people live in America while I couldn't care less when the people in china keeps sabbath.

Won

[BobRyan]

Exactly and Alaska switched at one point also. And the Phillipenes. No if the exact original 24 hour sabbath must be determined let us search for it starting in the middle East. It would have to be a consistent meridian when the first day's light appeared. It cannot be a line which can be moved for convenience.

Don't read me wrong here. I am not discussing the validity of the seventh-day sabbath! I am discussing the inconsistency of useing the "date line" to judge where on the earth's surface the first day ends and the second day begins (scripturally). The rationalle for having a date line is fine ...no problem there! ....mel

In over 120 languages the term for 7th day of the week -- is something like Sabbath. Apparently those ancient cultures knew which day was the 7th day without having to draw a dateline.

Anyone moving out and away from Noah's ark over a period of centuries would be keeping a 7 day cycle from that event common to all cultures. At least until they lost all that information.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

Sunset to sunset..

God is good.

og

[phkrause]

But mel that won't change anything. I'm still not sure what you are really after?

pk

[Planey]

No if the exact original 24 hour sabbath must be determined let us search for it starting in the middle East.

Could you suggest some strategies we could use to determine this line (meridian)?

There does not appear to be any useful bits in the Bible that I know of but maybe you have got some more information.

On the other hand the early Adventists would have been aware of the problem, having sent out mission ships to the Pacific fairly early in the piece. I have seen no reference to the problem in books/journals/magazine articles from this period, let alone any solutions. And EGW seems remarkably quiet in this area as well, which, if this problem is so vital, seems incongruous given her prodigious output.

Oh well.

Graeme

[melvin mccarty]

I think the mention of certain rivers by name in connection with Eden might have some significance....mel

[phkrause]

Planey if you read in Genesis 2:10-14, you'll see 4 rivers named, 2 of them are still there, the other 2 I don't believe are around any longer. Not sure why, could be they dried up. Also if you look at a map of Iraq, you will see the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers. Now was this exactly were Eden was, I can't say for sure, but I've heard it from a number of ministers. Not sure if EGW mentions it either.

pk

[melvin mccarty]

I do not know Dr Davis but I will be interested in his answer.....mel

[phkrause]

Mel I don't think its going to be any different than what we've already been saying. Again I'm not sure what you are after. According to your posts it seems that you are a Sabbath keeper and have no problem with its hours.

pk

[melvin mccarty]

pk can we expect Dr Davis to respond or not?....mel

[phkrause]

Probably not till I see him next Sabbath.

pk