Tipping...

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

If you tell me that they are not paid enough, that is an issue between the employee and the employer.

That is a cop-out that ignores the reality we live in. These workers are paid a small hourly wage so that the employer is able to pay the taxes the employee earns from the tips.

The hair styling business does vary quite a lot. However even there, the stylists are underpaid because of the tips. They do not receive a full wage from their employer. Our society is structured in such a way that the tip is part of the salary. When we refuse to tip we are stealing from that worker's pay.

[Key Guy]

Quote:

That is a cop-out that ignores the reality we live in. These workers are paid a small hourly wage so that the employer is able to pay the taxes the employee earns from the tips.

The hair styling business does vary quite a lot. However even there, the stylists are underpaid because of the tips. They do not receive a full wage from their employer. Our society is structured in such a way that the tip is part of the salary. When we refuse to tip we are stealing from that worker's pay.

I disagree totally. No one puts a gun to the head of an underpaid server and forces them to work under those conditions. If this system is so attractive, then why don't doctors, nurses, techs and ancillary staff of hospitals establish the pay system that way, too. Then, the hospital administration (as just one example) would get to pay less in taxes, too! We'll let the medical insurance companies pay the tips to the folks involved. The logic doesn't hold-up.

If you are a chef at a high-end restaurant, you typically don't get tips and you make a very good living from your regular paycheck. Why should there be a discrepancy within the same building? Not logical.

Mrs KeyGuy and I ate at a buffet restaurant in Ocean City, MD years ago. The bill was 15% higher than the posted rates and I was incensed because we missed the small print on the menu stating that the 'gratuity' would be added to pay the staff. That is misleading and immoral. Shane, would you tell me that you have no problem with that approach?

The concept of tipping is so skewed, from one industry to another, from one locale to another, that to call not tipping 'stealing' is ludicrous. I'm not about to try to stay up with all the variances just so I am not guilty of stealing from a staffer who gets a low wage. I did not negotiate the wage between the 2 parties. Last time I looked, the tipping thing was voluntary. Stealing is not a voluntary act. It's considered a crime and there are people (cops) that enforce laws against it.

I tip, but most of the time I don't like it. I do not feel the need to pay someone for doing what they are already paid to do.

[Bravus]

It's true that it's not logical or fair as a system, but since it applies everywhere in the country, low paid employees really *do* have a gun to their heads. It's work in this unfair system or don't work at all (or move to another country - not an option).

By all means work to reform the unfair system, KeyGuy, but why make the people who are already poorest and working hardest pay for a system they didn't set up? If your beef is with the restaurant owner, maybe establish a restaurant of your own, or find one, where the wait staff are paid a living wage.

It can be done - the Australian system shows that - but as I say, it's completely unfair to protest an unfair system by making it more unfair and depriving people of their living.

[phkrause]

I agree with you 100% KeyGuy. I would extend that even further, if you work for the church you also get paid less, so why don't we tip our teachers, nurses, doctors, etc. I have no problem with tipping per say. But its going to be on my terms, if you do a good job than a tip is forth coming, if not to bad. I remember one time the service was so bad, I almost searched out the manager to say I want to tip, but its going to go to the chef. We decided not to tip at all. Lots of times when the food is excellent I have the waitress let them know that.

pk

[Woody]

Add Pastors to the list for tipping.

I am willing to bet that pastors get paid less than many waiters and even with a Masters Degree.

[Bravus]

I get paid well, but I was just having a grin imagining teachers getting tipped for a particularly good lesson.

I suspect if you asked most service industry people whether they'd prefer a good regular wage versus tipping, they'd take the wage (except perhaps for cute waitresses in very high end restaurants, who can make some very serious money in tips - but that's not who we're mainly talking about). It can't be easy making ends meet and making a budget when your income fluctuates dramatically from day to day, depending on people's moods and values.

[phkrause]

Absolutely Redwood, at early worship today the Pastor really moved me, I came away really blessed for going. I almost had decided not to go. But I guess the only tip they get is a hand shake and a "that was a great sermon pastor."

pk

[Woody]

Why should I be forced to pay someone to do something that I might want to do for myself such as carrying a bag. If they offer to take it ... am I to assume that they are not offering out of kindness ... but a desire to make extra bucks?

[Woody]

Absolutely Redwood, at early worship today the Pastor really moved me, I came away really blessed for going. I almost had decided not to go. But I guess the only tip they get is a hand shake and a "that was a great sermon pastor."

pk

Teachers get apples. But I think Pastors deserve CASH.

[guibox]

LOL...the dialogue between KeyGuy and Shane sounds just like the conversation between Mr. Pink and Mr.White in 'Reservoir Dogs'.

I'm with KeyGuy on this one.

[Bravus]

I have plenty. There are 4 or 5 pretty recent computers at our house, and I have a motorbike, a car, an iPod, 3 guitars, an amp and an effects pedal, and so on and so on. I could keep on listing things. I make an embarrassingly large amount of money for doing something I love.

In that situation, God has richly blessed me. I see tipping as an opportunity to bless others. I know they don't have a lot of the material blessings I do (let alone the amazing family and friends), so giving them an amount of money that is quite small to me, and in comparison with the meal I just bought myself, but can make a significant difference to their wellbeing for the week...

It's not an obligation or a contract, it's a chance God puts in my way to do something good and enjoyable.

[Outta Here]

Not directed to anyone in particular, but honestly folks, if you're against tipping, don't tip. It's plain and simple. However, if you are a regular customer at any of the establishments at which you choose to forego tipping, don't expect to be served as if you were a decent paying customer. Rather, expect the minimum wage service of $3.52 per hour.

The choice is entirely in your hands--and I can assure you, people who tip poorly are easily remembered.

[Woody]

Why should someone who is poorer than the waiter ... tip the waiter if this is an issue of people being poor.

[Bravus]

Fair enough, I guess - not sure how often people poorer than the waiter are eating out, though... And not sure how many of the people here saying they don't tip are that poor...

[Woody]

Not directed to anyone in particular, but honestly folks, if you're against tipping, don't tip. It's plain and simple. However, if you are a regular customer at any of the establishments at which you choose to forego tipping, don't expect to be served as if you were a decent paying customer. Rather, expect the minimum wage service of $3.52 per hour.

The choice is entirely in your hands--and I can assure you, people who tip poorly are easily remembered.

Yes. I like this idea. I would alway choose the minimum wage service. I don't need the cute "give me a tip" comments. I do wish we had the choice. Perhaps when they ask ... 'smoking or non smoking' they could also ask ... smart remarks or the bare minumum.

[Bravus]

Heh - though I suspect in reality the difference might end up being 'spat in or not spat in'.

[Key Guy]

By all means work to reform the unfair system, KeyGuy, but why make the people who are already poorest and working hardest pay for a system they didn't set up? If your beef is with the restaurant owner, maybe establish a restaurant of your own, or find one, where the wait staff are paid a living wage.

You missed a critical option. Why should I work for an unfair employer or an unfair wage when _I_ could be my own boss? I could establish my own business!!

In America and Australia it's done all of the time. So much for being forced to work with a 'gun' to your head. If an employee has no gumption or motivation to set up his/her own business... not my problem.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I believe that at all times and in all places, I am a representative of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the one who told us that if someone asks us to go a mile, we should go two, and that we should love and be kind to even those who hate us and mistreat us. He is infinitely generous with us, even though we do not deserve it. If I am His representative, I should always treat others as He would.

Therefore, on the extremely rare occasions when I eat at a restaurant, I treat the waiter/waitress with respect, kindness, and with as much pleasantness as I am capable of assuming. And I tip generously. If the service was really bad, I might not be quite so generous, but I can't recall ever having experienced bad service.

Considering how my heavenly Father treats me, and has always treated me, how can I do any less?

[Key Guy]

Some points...

> No, tipping is NOT part of the 'wage'. It is a bonus for doing a great job. Not a mediocre job, not a crappy job, not an average job. If you really want to make a statement about a poor job... tip a penny. I am fine with the idea of bypassing a lousy server to tip the chef for a great meal.

> Tipping has become socialistic. Why not rename tipping to 'welfare'. It's expected even when not earned. But that throws this conversation into the politics section, doesn't it.

> My newspaper delivery person expects a tip every year at Christmas time. Why? For delivering the paper every morning. That's what I contracted the newspaper company to do! Do I tip if the delivery driver actually gets the paper in front on my house? No, that's what is expected of him/her! Same with delivering on time. It's a promised service, not an 'extra mile' benefit. If you stand out in the service you provide, then you deserve to receive a tip.

> There are some pastors and teachers that deserve a tip of some sort... I'll be the first to agree. Cash? Maybe. I've done other favors, so I'll have to think about the cash concept for those professions.

>

For all of those who don't tip, I will say again, stay home! You will be doing the waiter a service and helping yourself....they won't know what a cheapskate you are!!! Not tipping says far more about you than the person serving your meal.

But then again, we all want something for nothing! Sounds a little bit selfish to me!

It's selfish to expect the service you pay for what's posted in a rate chart or on a menu? Something for nothing? I expect to get decent service for my $12 meal. It's basically stated, isn't it? Expecting that makes me selfish?

>"People who tip poorly are easily remembered." True. Service people who give crappy service are, too. I don't have to use them. I can request another server, another stylist, another provider. Works both ways. If I am paying the provider's wage through my tips, then I am considered an employer, correct? I may choose to 'fire' them. I apparently have that right.

[Woody]

Quote:

There are some pastors and teachers that deserve a tip of some sort... I'll be the first to agree. Cash? Maybe. I've done other favors, so I'll have to think about the cash concept for those professions.

Don't. It was tic.

Doing something personal means much more.

A pastor's bonus though is seeing others grow in Grace.

[Key Guy]

when I eat at a restaurant, I treat the waiter/waitress with respect, kindness, and with as much pleasantness as I am capable of assuming.

So, not tipping a crappy waiter is now unkind and shows a lack of respect.

The insinuation is that Jesus would tip. Jesus paid his taxes with money from a fish's mouth. I'll have to inspect my food for coins the next time we eat out. Can one find money in a Garden Burger?

[Outta Here]

So, not tipping a crappy waiter is now unkind and shows a lack of respect.

Pay for what you get. Get what you pay for. It's simple economics. For the record, the adjective used in the quote above to describe such a waiter, IMO, shows a lack of respect--period.

[Key Guy]

Originally Posted By: KeyGuy

So, not tipping a crappy waiter is now unkind and shows a lack of respect.

Pay for what you get. Get what you pay for. It's simple economics. For the record, the adjective used in the quote above to describe such a waiter, IMO, shows a lack of respect--period.

My comment was crappy. Sorry if it offended you.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: glg

when I eat at a restaurant, I treat the waiter/waitress with respect, kindness, and with as much pleasantness as I am capable of assuming.

So, not tipping a crappy waiter is now unkind and shows a lack of respect.

The insinuation is that Jesus would tip. Jesus paid his taxes with money from a fish's mouth. I'll have to inspect my food for coins the next time we eat out. Can one find money in a Garden Burger?

I said nothing about what you should do. This is the way I am convicted to treat everyone who waits on me - store clerks and cashiers as well - BEFORE I know what kind of service they are going to give me (and after).

I have never had bad service from any waiter or waitress. If I did, I wouldn't tip so well, though I probably wouldn't give them the ultimate insult - a nickel tip. But I would still be pleasant and treat them kindly and politely regardless. I feel I would be a disgrace to my profession of Christianity if I do otherwise, as well as a blot on the character of the God whom I represent.

Besides, why should I let someone else decide how I'm going to act?

[Bravus]

Agreed, we can keep it friendly. I have tried to say 'this is what I do and why I do it' without saying 'this is what you should do', and certainly without saying 'if you are a real Christian this is what you should do'.

On the other hand... I do see God as generous and as seeking every opportunity to bless us, and want to emulate that. Maybe it becomes a question of how we see God? Again, not trying to condemn those who see Him differently, but trying to penetrate to the core...