Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Does it really matter? We are to treat our enemies as if they were our neighbor too.

I think it does.  Jesus said, "Love your enemies," but He said "Love your neighbors as you love yourself."  I think there is a difference.

One and the same....Agape makes no difference. Proof? Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them [i.e., they love their own]. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[oldsailor29]

I don't need to read a parable when I can read what Jesus said straight out....

And it is you who are wrong,

Rob

Didn't Jesus say straight out, that the second great commandment is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?"    And wasn't the parable of the good Samaritan the straight out answer Jesus gave to the question, "Who is my neighbor?"    How is this wrong?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't need to read a parable when I can read what Jesus said straight out....

And it is you who are wrong,

Rob

Didn't Jesus say straight out, that the second great commandment is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?"    And wasn't the parable of the good Samaritan the straight out answer Jesus gave to the question, "Who is my neighbor?"    How is this wrong?

Your trying to pull me in....It ain't going to happen.

Look at Christ....Look at Him when He was on the cross. His Father had forsaken Him....yet Christ said, "Forgiven them"....He died so that His enemies could have heaven in His place because when Christ died the hope of resurrection, His Father, had abandoned Him.....That's agape love....

[Robert]

The thing that we need to realize is what we call in theology, “the kenosis doctrine,” based on Phil. 2:6-8. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. When you realize that is how much God loves you, can you be the same again? We talk of giving a little money for the needs of others. But God emptied heaven for us! How can we hold back? Look at the early Christian Church. They did not hold on to anything, land or houses. They gave it all to the body of Christ, the church. That is what will happen in this church when we see Christ crucified, as the early Christians saw it; and then we won’t need any more promotional programs. I get tired of promotional programs. I am sorry that we have to do it because if we don’t promote nothing gets done. It is terrible that we have to keep on this egocentric approach for raising funds. Why can’t the love of God constrain us? [JS]

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Didn't Jesus say straight out, that the second great commandment is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself?"    And wasn't the parable of the good Samaritan the straight out answer Jesus gave to the question, "Who is my neighbor?"    How is this wrong? [/quote']

Your trying to pull me in....It ain't going to happen.

Look at Christ....Look at Him when He was on the cross. His Father had forsaken Him....yet Christ said, "Forgiven them"....He died so that His enemies could have heaven in His place because when Christ died the hope of resurrection, His Father, had abandoned Him.....That's agape love....

Well yes, Jesus is an excellent definition of a neighbor.    But when asked, "Who is my neighbor," Jesus gave us the parable of the good Samaritan.    Clearly the person who is willing to help is identified as the neighbor.

I'm not trying to pull you in to anything.    Just trying to stay on point(who is my neighbor?)and explain that not everyone is a neighbor by God's definition.    If the correct answer was "everybody," Jesus would have said that.    If the correct answer was "the people who live next door," Jesus would have said that.    But He didn't say either of those things.    He gave us a parable which gives us a clear definition of "neighbor."

[Robert]

He gave us a parable which gives us a clear definition of "neighbor."

Here Paul contrasts human love, which is self-seeking, with agape love, which seeketh not her own:

Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love [agape] for us in this: While we were still sinners [his enemies - see verse 10], Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Does it really matter? We are to treat our enemies as if they were our neighbor too.

I think it does.  Jesus said, "Love your enemies," but He said "Love your neighbors as you love yourself."  I think there is a difference.

The good Samaritan and the injured man were BOTH neighbors and enemies. Remember that the Samaritan belonged to a race that the Jewish people hated.

Would not it be the ultimate expression of unselfish love, to love your enemy as you love yourself?

Otherwise we are setting up a scenario where all of our fellow humans deserve love, but some deserve more than others depending on whether they are our "friends" or "enemies".

aldona

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

I think it does.  Jesus said' date=' "Love your enemies," but He said "Love your neighbors as you love yourself."  I think there is a difference. [/quote']

The good Samaritan and the injured man were BOTH neighbors and enemies. Remember that the Samaritan belonged to a race that the Jewish people hated.

Would not it be the ultimate expression of unselfish love, to love your enemy as you love yourself?

Otherwise we are setting up a scenario where all of our fellow humans deserve love, but some deserve more than others depending on whether they are our "friends" or "enemies".

aldona

Yeah, I forgot about the enmity between Jews and Samaritans....Very good point!

TU

[Robert]

Otherwise we are setting up a scenario where all of our fellow humans deserve love, but some deserve more than others depending on whether they are our "friends" or "enemies".

Aldona, you got me thinking (I know, scary), didn't Matthew quote Jesus on this very issue? Yes, and here it is:

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I [Jesus] tell you: Love [agape] your enemies

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

No love for myself = no love for my neighbor.

The point is, we are all born with self love. We already have it, so we are to take that selfish love and use it on our neighbors instead.

The commandment is: You are to agapao your neighbor as you agapao yourself. NO ONE born of flesh and blood is born with it. One has to be born again to possess it.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

No love for myself = no love for my neighbor.

That's because you are self-centered...i.e., if Rob is right and I can't love myself also, then I won't love my neighbor either....

And you don't! Thanks for proving my point! Got ya!

If you can't love yourself, how are you going to love your neighbor?

You can't give away something you never possessed in the first place.

[Lutz13]

I like what Jack says here, and I agree with it 100%. This world is all about self, and until you empty yourself you will not make it into Gods kingdom.

"Happy are the poor in spirit: for the kingdom of heaven in theirs"(Matthew 5:3)

Quote:

In other words, the gospel of salvation contradicts the philosophy of the world. The philosophy of the world is you must have confidence in yourself. People who have confidence in themselves will make it. Christ says, “You must empty yourself of self before I can give you happiness.”

In other words, the gospel principle is Jesus saying that, “You must die first before you can have life. You must be emptied first before I can fill you. You must pull down what is confident in yourself that I may lift you up.”

Now I want to remind you of what Simeon said. When Jesus was brought to the temple as a baby, Simeon took Him into his arms and he made a statement. Do you remember that statement? Turn to Luke 2 and listen to what this godly man said about Christ, verse 34:

Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,....”

First comes the falling, and then the rising. And for those who refuse to fall on the Rock and be broken, there would be no rising.

In other words, Christ did not come to pat the Pharisees on the back, He came to make them nothing that in Christ they might be everything. And that is why Sister Ellen G. White says that the work of justification by faith is to take the glory of man and put it in the dust. It is very painful. You have to recognize your poverty before God can lift you up. - Jack Sequeira -

[Lutz13]

So the real question is, and what we should really be debating is. How does one empty themselves? It is one of my biggest struggles, and I am desperately trying to figure it out.

[Robert]

If you can't love yourself, how are you going to love your neighbor?

And you have someone very important, in this world, who agrees 100% with you. In facts that's been his argument from the start. His name is Lucifer.

[Gerr]

So the real question is, and what we should really be debating is. How does one empty themselves? It is one of my biggest struggles, and I am desperately trying to figure it out.

What do you mean for one to be emptied of self?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you can't love yourself, how are you going to love your neighbor?

And you have someone very important, in this world, who agrees 100% with you. In facts that's been his argument from the start. His name is Lucifer.

When Satan rebelled against God in heaven [Revelation 12:7-9], he was really rebelling against the God’s agape love the spirit of His law [Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13-14]. The idea that “love (agape) seeketh not her own” (i.e., self) [1 Corinthians 13:5] was too restrictive to Lucifer. Consequently he objected to it and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Therefore, ever since his fall, the enemy of God and man (Satan) has hated the concept of agape.

In heaven, Lucifer, who became Satan, had rebelled against God and His government over the issue of agape love which, according to Paul, “seeketh not its own” [1 Cor. 13:5]. Satan insisted that such selfless love, that leaves no room for self, deprives one of happiness [isa. 14:12-14]. So, once Satan took over dominion of this earth, he used the human race to develop this world on the principle of self

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you can't love yourself, how are you going to love your neighbor?

And you have someone very important, in this world, who agrees 100% with you. In facts that's been his argument from the start. His name is Lucifer.

Lucifer stopped loving others as he loved himself. Your self-assumed superior intellect can't seem to grasp the difference between a healthy agape love for one's self from self-centeredness that make others secondary. As you would tell me, "think man, think." Think outside that concrete you're boxed in! It was God who said, "Love your neighbor AS you love yourself," NOT Lucifer. Has not your professed wisdom so corrupted you that you are actually attributing to Satan words that God himself spoke?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And you have someone very important, in this world, who agrees 100% with you. In facts that's been his argument from the start. His name is Lucifer. [/quote'][color:blue]

Lucifer stopped loving others as he loved himself.

No, Lucifer found God's love, that "seeketh not her own", too restrictive. He insisted that the only way to truly be happy was to love self. Only then could he love others.

Well, you see where Lucifer's love of self has got the human race. We are so busy loving self, that we have no time to love others (unless it benefits us, but then again that's more self-love)

Gerry, you need a change of mind. You are on very, very dangerous ground. I'm not kidding....

Christ lived only for others....The problem is no one agaped Him back....Hence His poverty.

Rob

[Gerr]

Here's another variation of that same commandment, i.e. "you shall love your neighbor AS you love yourself."

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, FOR THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS." Mt 7:12 ESV.

"Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." NLT

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." NIV

"“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." NASB

[Robert]

Gerry, would you like $100,000? Sure...who wouldn't!

Since birth you have been loving yourself and have in the process built up a nice little nest egg in the bank. Now love me and send me a check for $100,000. Agape me, as you have agaped yourself. In other words do to me as you would like me to do to you!

Would you like my address??? I'll be waiting for that check.

Oh, let me guess, you love yourself more (and hence you really don't love me as yourself) so I won't be seeing that check in my mailbox. teehe

Checkmate,

Rob

[Robert]

Here's a poster I found for you, Gerry:

Click

[Lutz13]

What do you mean for one to be emptied of self?

[Gerr]

"whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully." 2 Cor 9:6 ESV

Ps 128:2 "You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be blessed, and it shall be well with you." ESV

Eccl 5:19 "Furthermore, as for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, He has also empowered him to eat from them and to receive his reward and rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God." NASB

"If God gives a man wealth and property and lets him enjoy them, he should be grateful and enjoy what he has worked for. It is a gift from God." GNT

[Gerr]

I believe what you are asking is, how shall I get rid of self-centeredness?

The only way I know how is:

1. "Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith,"

2. "No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning..."

3. "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

4. "It is God who works in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure.

[Gerr]

Here's a poster I found for you, Gerry:

Click

Again, your superior intellect can't tell the difference between agape love for self and selfishness/self-centeredness.