Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

[Robert]

Voila! ALL education therefore is evil! ALL love for self is evil!

Education to live for others only, no....Education to build your wealth, yes...according to heaven's principles. Remember that we will have mansions in heaven, but not because of self-seeking & competition. Like the early church, we will have all things in common. There's no "self" anything in heaven. None will think of self...what part of that don't you understand?

Rob

[Robert]

But we also receive a new "self" a new identity that God has made for us and we receive.

Understanding this removes all confusion.

Mark.

Of course we will have self-realization, but our ambition in life will be to live for others. Our thoughts will not be centered in "self", as in, my mansion, my this, my that. But here on this world under Lucifer, I can guarantee you live for self. You went to college, why? $$$$ Guilty! Hence you had to be delivered from under law, that same law you and the SDA church claims to keep. Like the Pharisees of old, you keep the letter, but you fail to keep the spirit. Christ's life answered the spirit of the law. He was servant of all....He lived to serve, even His enemies. Can you make the same claim? Not me, therefore my hope is built on nothing more than Jesus Christ's righteousness. In the meantime I'm becoming less selfish, but the fact is the law doesn't care for it demands perfection.

[Robert]

taken to an unnecessary extreme.

Mark :-)

I'm sure that's Lucifer said to God about just a little "self-love".....

Gal 5:9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But we also receive a new "self" a new identity that God has made for us and we receive.

Understanding this removes all confusion.

Mark.

Of course we will have self-realization, but our ambition in life will be to live for others. Our thoughts will not be centered in "self", as in, my mansion, my this, my that. But here on this world under Lucifer, I can guarantee you live for self. You went to college, why? $$$$ Guilty! Hence you had to be delivered from under law, that same law you and the SDA church claims to keep. Like the Pharisees of old, you keep the letter, but you fail to keep the spirit. Christ's life answered the spirit of the law. He was servant of all....He lived to serve, even His enemies. Can you make the same claim? Not me, therefore my hope is built on nothing more than Jesus Christ's righteousness. In the meantime I'm becoming less selfish, but the fact is the law doesn't care for it demands perfection.

that same law you and the SDA church claims to keep

Are you an SDA Robert?

Also, what claims have I made about keeping the Law that you might be referring to?

[Twilight]

Let us consider this idea here also:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

[Robert]

None will think of self...what part of that don't you understand?

Rob

Again, I'll repeat this until all of us drop dead:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Now, apply the above statement with,

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

If you aren't thinking of yourself then you have that love which seeks not her own wealth, but another's wealth.

So, when the law says, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" it means no longer live for your self-centered desires, but another's welfare.

Now I no what you are thinking. If I obeyed the law perfectly I wouldn't have anything because in this world if you don't watch out for yourself nobody else will.

Bingo! That's why Christ was poor....

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

She's not putting a gun to your head in the above statement. She's saying if you completely follow Christ in His denial of self, you'll be poor in this world under the principle of self-love.

Rob

[Robert]

Let us consider this idea here also:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

And the church, at the time of Christ, loved Him how much? How did they show it? They crucified Him!!!! Christ loved the church when she was bad, very bad. She was a whore and a murderer, but He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that she could have his place in heaven. Thank you for proving my point!

[Robert]

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. [Paul said, if you have food and clothing, with this be content. These things are necessary for life] He who loves his wife loves himself [context: cares for his body]. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Let us consider this idea here also:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

And the church, at the time of Christ, loved Him how much? How did they show it? They crucified Him!!!! Christ loved the church when she was bad, very bad. She was a whore and a murderer, but He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that she could have his place in heaven. Thank you for proving my point!

You ignored the important part of the quote Robert...

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

The scripture is plain.

There is a healthy self respect that must not be confused with a love of the "carnal self".

You are bundling them all up together and thus you end up at an extreme point because you do not see the finer points and that a one size fits all does not work.

The only way I can accept your viewpoint is by throwing these types of texts out. That is not sensible or even wise. To do so in fact, would be a foolish thing for me to do.

There are other texts that balance the issue, we must not ignore those.

If you want to believe this view you present Robert, then that is up to you, but I would counsel others to consider these other texts and not rush to an extreme viewpoint.

One text or quote from SOP does not make a doctrine.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Are you an SDA Robert?

[Robert]

You ignored the important part of the quote Robert...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Are you an SDA Robert?

None ya.... teehe

Quote:

Also, what claims have I made about keeping the Law that you might be referring to?

So you aren't keeping it?

rob

I am questioning your basis for the claim you directed towards me my friend.

A good politician answers a question with a question to avoid the question...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You ignored the important part of the quote Robert...

Nope, you were just impatient!

Quote:

There is a healthy self respect that must not be confused with a love of the "carnal self".

Okay, but what does that have to do with all your personal material things? Hmmm?

Look, my point here is not to smack you around, but instead it is to prove that we aren't sinless and therefore we aren't perfect. Nevertheless, we should aim to be less selfish....All of us are falling short of God's agape as seen in the life of Christ. Agree?

Personal possession are a different subject Robert, having no personal possessions is not a sign that you are loving, but that is another discussion.

Here is the state of affairs as I understand it.

1. We are nailed in Christ to the Cross.

2. Our old man is crucified, his power over us is broken.

3. The new man is born.

4. That man has the power and presence of the Holy Spirit to enable him to be obedient to Gods Law.

5. We can be perfect in that we are in Christ and we have His perfection as we plead the merits of Jesus continually before the Father.

6. That perfection in Christ can only be maintained as we walk in the Spirit in obedience to Gods Law.

7. Gods love for us, fills our hearts, and as our appreciation of it grows, our love for others also grows.

8. A healthy self respect is restored to us, as we stand before God in Christ's Righteousness.

9. That self respect is a gift from God and has to be attributed fully to Him, but nonetheless it is ours to enjoy.

10. That self respect empowers us to help others out of their low self-esteem and point them to the one who can give them their self respect back.

God bless,

Mark

[Robert]

6. That perfection in Christ can only be maintained as we walk in the Spirit in obedience to Gods Law.

Legalism and self-righteousness.

You do not "love your neighbor as yourself."

Are you living Christ's life?

[Robert]

having no personal possessions is not a sign that you are loving

True, but having them shows self-love....The question is how did we get them? Through the love of self! You thought a lot about self, didn't you? That's how we gain wealth in this world. In heaven it's completely opposite.

Rob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

6. That perfection in Christ can only be maintained as we walk in the Spirit in obedience to Gods Law.

Legalism and self-righteousness.

You do not "love your neighbor as yourself."

Are you living Christ's life?

I do not believe Paul to be a legalist, nor Jesus for that matter...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I wonder if it is only those that do not understand how to get victory over sin Robert, that cry "legalist" whenever obedience is talked about, or those that have so little faith in God, that they believe Satans lie that victory over sin is impossible?

Would you like to explain how my point was legallistic in light of these texts I have posted?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law [agape] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law [agape] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As you learn to walk in the spirit you will experience more agape...more growth, but it doesn't say, "perfection in Christ [our JBF) can only be maintained as we walk in the Spirit in obedience to Gods Law." That's your twisted legalistic addition.

Quote:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I've covered this before....Christ is primarily speaking to the Jews, who were already in bondage under law. Notice how He brings up the letter and contrasts it with the spirit of the law as if to say, "If you really think you're keeping the law, reality check!" And He ends up by saying, "You must be perfect, just as God is perfect."

Are you? Are you as perfect as God is perfect? No???? Context, man...Context is everything. The fact you quoted this out of context proves you are a legalist. Ain't you the same one who has God slashing and bashing? Yes, you are....Funny how the two go together!

Quote:

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [mature[ , be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

The Greek word is translated "mature"....A mature Christian is not beset as much as a babe in Christ, but that doesn't mean he is measuring up....Again, your view of things shows you have a legalistic side that needs correcting.

Rob

One of the most valuable lessons I have learned Robert is to fix myself before trying to fix others.

Again, your view of things shows you have a legalistic side that needs correcting.

Is this a lesson you have considered?

God or Satan?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Look, my point here is not to smack you around, but instead it is to prove that we aren't sinless and therefore we aren't perfect. Nevertheless, we should aim to be less selfish....All of us are falling short of God's agape as seen in the life of Christ. Agree?

But inorder to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law! And per your theology, THAT IS LEGALISM!

[Gerr]

Quote:

That's why you must be changed, Gerry, before you can enter into heaven. If God let you into heaven your love of self would turn it upside down. That's why Lucifer wasn't allowed to remain. After all he found God's agape love too restrictive.

Changed into what? From a covenant-keeper to a covenant-breaker? No thank you.

Is it not the law-breaker that needs to change into a law-abiding citizen? You have made it abundantly clear you're beyond the law!!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now I no what you are thinking. If I obeyed the law perfectly I wouldn't have anything because in this world if you don't watch out for yourself nobody else will.

Bingo! That's why Christ was poor....

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

Let's see. Christ died for me that I might have life more abundantly. Foxes have holes, and birds have nests they can call home, while the Christ you are trying to palm off wants me to sell my home and everything I have to give to my neighbor? Does your Christ care more for foxes and birds than the people He died for? The Christ you worship either has the weirdest sense of humor or the most screwed up sense of values!

[Robert]

Again, your view of things shows you have a legalistic side that needs correcting.

Why did your humanity have to die in Christ?

[Robert]

But in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law! And per your theology, THAT IS LEGALISM!

I grow very weary of your slowness of comprehension. Again what does the law require? Jesus said it just right: "You shall be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

So the law (especially the spirituality) points to the character of God. Hence, agape fulfills the law. Agape, by definition, has no self in it. This does not mean that you are not conscience of yourself, it means you don't live for yourself...you live for others only. As EGW said, "none will think of self"....

So, when you say, "in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law", well, what does the law require?

Perfect agape love...perfect unselfishness. So the law only recognizes perfection. So then, how can you say "I would have to keep the law"? Anything outside perfection is sin....Who says? The law!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Look, my point here is not to smack you around, but instead it is to prove that we aren't sinless and therefore we aren't perfect. Nevertheless, we should aim to be less selfish....All of us are falling short of God's agape as seen in the life of Christ. Agree?

But in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law! And per your theology, THAT IS LEGALISM!

I grow very weary of your slowness of comprehension. Again what does the law require? Jesus said it just right: "You shall be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

So the law (especially the spirituality) points to the character of God. Hence, agape fulfills the law. Agape, by definition, has no self in it. This does not mean that you are conscience of yourself, it means you don't live for yourself...you live for others only. As EGW said, "none will think of self"....

So, when you say, "in order to be less[/u ]selfish, I would have to keep the law!"

What does the law require, again? Perfect agape love...perfect unselfishness. So the law only recognizes perfection. So then, how can you say "I would have to keep the law"? Anything outside perfection is sin....Who says? The law!

I grow very weary of your slowness of comprehension. Again (for those who are a bit slow)

With these types of statements, how can any of us even begin to imagine that you have any comprehension of "agape" Robert?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Again, your view of things shows you have a legalistic side that needs correcting.

Why did your humanity have to die in Christ?

That is a loaded question.

Define "humanity".

Mark