Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

[Robert]

With these types of statements, how can any of us even begin to imagine that you have any comprehension of "agape" Robert?

Because Gerry (and I've been dealing with the legalist for years) is hard-headed. He keeps thinking he is keeping the law. He is deceived, just like 1 John 1:8 states....

And, BTW, I know what agape is ( I can define it)...I even experience agape, but everything that comes from me is not agape. The same with you, who are you kidding?

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why did your humanity have to die in Christ? [/quote']

That is a loaded question.

Define "humanity".

Mark

Mark, come on, we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam. You came from him. You share his life....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Mark, come on, we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam. You came from him. You share his life....

My carnal nature had to be nailed to the cross, not my "humanity".

My new nature is not the same as my carnal nature.

But because you want to define everything under the term "humanity", you define the question.

Or load the question, as they say.

So please define your use of the word "humanity" and give us a biblical parrallel to compare it to please.

Mark

[Robert]

My carnal nature had to be nailed to the cross, not my "humanity".

Where does your bent-to-self (your nature) reside? Let me direct you to Paul:

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh (body - humanity). ....20 it is sin living in me that does it. ....23 I see another law at work in the members of my body [humanity], waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

In your body...in your flesh...in your members (your body parts). Now, tell me, where this bent-to-self is so you can operate and cut it out. Yes?

EGW:

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity,is the work of redemption." (RH April 5, 1906).

[Robert]

EGW: (5BC 1113)

"Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life."

Bible:

" You died to the law in the body of Christ" (Rom 7:4)

" Our old self (old life) was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin might be destroyed"

Whose humanity? Yours....Why? The law condemns your humanity because it is indwelt with the principle of sin (iniquity). Our humanity can't be fixed it must die. In return we are given glorified bodies indwelt with the principle of agape! When? At the resurrection!!!!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

With these types of statements, how can any of us even begin to imagine that you have any comprehension of "agape" Robert?

Because Gerry (and I've been dealing with the legalist for years) is hard-headed. He keeps thinking he is keeping the law. He is deceived, just like 1 John 1:8 states....

And, BTW, I know what agape is ( I can define it)...I even experience agape, but everything that comes from me is not agape. The same with you, who are you kidding?

Rob

I am not kidding anyone Rob, but then I am not the one setting myself up as the authority on the understanding of "agape" love and on the judge of Gods character.

That is the position you have taken.

So I would state that if you are to take that position, you need to practice what you are preaching.

You are not doing this, but ridiculing and mocking others when they do not agree with you.

When our testimony is such, when we have to pull people down and ridicule them to prove our point, then it is apparent that we do not even begin to understand agape love.

In Christ's love,

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My carnal nature had to be nailed to the cross, not my "humanity".

Where does your bent-to-self (your nature) reside? Let me direct you to Paul:

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh (body - humanity). ....20 it is sin living in me that does it. ....23 I see another law at work in the members of my body [humanity], waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

In your body...in your flesh...in your members (your body parts). Now, tell me, where this bent-to-self is so you can operate and cut it out. Yes?

EGW:

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity,is the work of redemption." (RH April 5, 1906).

Paul calls it the "old man" or the "carnal nature" to define the sinful nature.

It is never called "humanity".

That is a word you have supplied and applied to what is called the carnal nature.

Why do I say that?

Because Adam and Eve had humanity before they sinned.

Jesus had humanity and was without sin.

I would propose we use the biblical or SOP definitions in their correct context, then we will not confuse one another, what do you think?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

EGW: (5BC 1113)

"Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life."

Bible:

" You died to the law in the body of Christ" (Rom 7:4)

" Our old self (old life) was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin might be destroyed"

Whose humanity? Yours....Why? The law condemns your humanity because it is indwelt with the principle of sin (iniquity). Our humanity can't be fixed it must die. In return we are given glorified bodies indwelt with the principle of agape! When? At the resurrection!!!!

That is saying that the human part of Christ's nature died.

Not that the human part of Christ's nature is the carnal nature.

Christ's humanity had no sin in it.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Because Gerry (and I've been dealing with the legalist for years) is hard-headed. He keeps thinking he is keeping the law. He is deceived, just like 1 John 1:8 states....

And, BTW, I know what agape is ( I can define it)...I even experience agape, but everything that comes from me is not agape. The same with you, who are you kidding?

Rob [/quote']

You are not doing this, but ridiculing and mocking others when they do not agree with you.

When our testimony is such, when we have to pull people down and ridicule them to prove our point, then it is apparent that we do not even begin to understand agape love.

In Christ's love,

Mark

Supposition....

The Apostle Paul was a authority on agape. After all he wrote, "Agape...is not self-seeking", yet he also came down hard on those who disagreed with him:

"Why don't these agitators, obsessive as they are about circumcision, go all the way and castrate themselves!" Gal 5:12

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!" Phil 3:2

"You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal!" Gal 3:1

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Supposition....

The Apostle Paul was a authority on agape. After all he wrote, "Agape...is not self-seeking", yet he also came down hard on those who disagreed with him:

"Why don't these agitators, obsessive as they are about circumcision, go all the way and castrate themselves!" Gal 5:12

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!" Phil 3:2

"You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal!" Gal 3:1

yet he also came down hard on those who disagreed with him:

Wrath?

Coming down hard?

Agape?

I thought you were against all forms of "force" Robert?

That you believed God to be a pacifist and therefore it follows that you are also a pacifist...

[Robert]

I thought you were against all forms of "force" Robert?

That you believed God to be a pacifist and therefore it follows that you are also a pacifist...

What are you drinking? Paul is using no force here....And yes, God is a pacifist. You hate that, don't you?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I thought you were against all forms of "force" Robert?

That you believed God to be a pacifist and therefore it follows that you are also a pacifist...

What are you drinking? Paul is using no force here....And yes, God is a pacifist. You hate that, don't you?

I do not believe God is a pacifist, so there is nothing to hate...

Mark :-)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law! And per your theology, THAT IS LEGALISM!

I grow very weary of your slowness of comprehension. Again what does the law require? Jesus said it just right: "You shall be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

You can question my intelligence and slowness of comprehension, Robert. But what you don't seem to understand or refuse to understand or see is the logical conclusion of your reasoning/theology.

Quote:

So the law (especially the spirituality) points to the character of God. Hence, agape fulfills the law. Agape, by definition, has no self in it. This does not mean that you are not conscience of yourself, it means you don't live for yourself...you live for others only. As EGW said, "none will think of self"....

So, when you say, "in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law", well, what does the law require?

Perfect agape love...perfect unselfishness. So the law only recognizes perfection. So then, how can you say "I would have to keep the law"? Anything outside perfection is sin....Who says? The law!

Of course, the law accepts nothing but perfection! But God has provided a way for me to meet it!

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father’s commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." {FW 50.1}

White, E. G. (1979; 2002). Faith and Works (50). Southern Publishing Association.

That is what it means to be "in Christ"! You obey in Christ - today. Now. Not obeyed "in Christ" 2k yrs ago and live above or beyond the law today! What I do today is not accepted as merit, not as payment for my debt. Never. But when I obey from the heart, love from the heart, albeit how imperfectly, God accepts it as fulfilling the law because it is always done "in Christ" who fulfilled the law.

You acknowledge believers should be less selfish. Can you be less selfish without obeying the law even if imperfectly? But your theology says ALL such talk about obedience IS LEGALISM. So per the logic of your reasoning (which you fail to acknowledge or see) is: in order to be less selfish, I have to go back to being a legalist!

[Robert]

Of course, the law accepts nothing but perfection! But God has provided a way for me to meet it!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Of course, the law accepts nothing but perfection! But God has provided a way for me to meet it!

Then you quote Ellen (who is wrong here)....In fact she's teaching Roman Catholicism or she did a poor job explaining herself.

Quote:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit."

This is the same thing the Judaizers were teaching....In the judgment God doesn't take your best plus Christ's righteousness and accounts that for your ticket to heaven. That is subtle legalism. You are in danger of rejecting the gospel with your false gospel. I've warned you before and I'm warning you again. Let go of such false notions.

Quote:

That is what it means to be "in Christ"! You obey in Christ - today. Now. Not obeyed "in Christ" 2k yrs ago and live above or beyond the law today!

You are totally ignorant of the gospel! "In Christ" is what saves....YOu can't add to His perfect work. Any genuine fruit is the result of accepting the in Christ truth. If you haven't accepted it your works are filthy rags because they are void of the Spirit of God. God will not help you in your works program. Only when when you accept that "in Christ" you stand perfect will you have the assurance of heaven.

Quote:

Can you be less selfish without obeying the law even if imperfectly?

That's an oxymoron....Think it out....

You reject the SOP statement because you do not understand it.

If you reject this, you have to reject Paul.

Ellen White is stating the same principle as Paul, when he says: "faith is accounted for righteousness".

God Bless,

Mark

[Robert]

If you reject this [sOP], you have to reject Paul.

[Robert]

Adam and Eve had humanity before they sinned.

A sinless humanity indwelt with agape.

After the fall their humanity became ruined. Since we are the product of their lives we receive a humanity indwelt with iniquity - that bent to self.

[Robert]

That is saying that the human part of Christ's nature died.

Please be honest. Dishonesty is the same as a lie. The text is clear: " YOU died to the law in the body of Christ"

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That is saying that the human part of Christ's nature died.

Please be honest. Dishonesty is the same as a lie. The text is clear: " YOU died to the law in the body of Christ"

In fact not only did your old humanity, indwelt with sin, die in the body of Christ as the Son of man, but "when One died, ALL died". Find that verse!

Again, the true gospel answers the law...it fulfills it. The law demands your death. Christ's death instead of yours is unjust...it doesn't answer the law...in fact it makes a mockery of it. No, at the incarnation, Christ assumed YOUR life and that life died in Him on the cross.

Hence, in Christ, the law has been completely satisfied.

You see all of us, from Adam's immediate children to the last man standing, shares Adam's life. We are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. Since we all share...since we are all copies of his actual cells, we all share his life. This life Christ took upon Himself.

[Robert]

So the question is, “How did God save mankind?” How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] who believe in Jesus and yet maintain the integrity of his holy law which condemns the sinner? Does he bypass the law? God cannot say, “I am sovereign and, therefore, I don’t have to keep my own law. Since I love this rebellious, sinful human race unconditionally I will take them to heaven.” God cannot do that, because he is always true to himself. So the answer to the problem is the “in Christ” idea.

The expression “in Christ” is a rather difficult phrase to understand just as “you must be born again” was difficult for Nicodemus. “‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’” [John 3:4]. Likewise, the concept of “in Christ” is a difficult idea for us to understand. This is especially true of the Western mind, because in the Western world we think in terms of individuals, whereas the “in Christ” idea is based on what is known as biblical solidarity — the many in one.

To help us understand what the term means, we will look at two examples in the Bible, which will also help us understand what God is saying in Ephesians 2. The first example is found in the book of Romans. Quoting from the Old Testament, the apostle Paul is addressing Jewish believers at Rome. God is speaking to Rebekah, the wife of Isaac: “She was told, ‘The older will serve the younger’” [Romans 9:12].

God was talking in “solidarity” language. When he used the word “older,” he was not referring to Esau, but to the Edomites, who were descendants of Esau. When he used the word “younger,” he was not talking of Jacob the individual, but of the Israelites, who were the descendants of Jacob [see Genesis 25:21-23]. It is true that the Edomites, Esau’s descendants, did serve the Israelites, Jacob’s descendants. That is solidarity.

Another example in the New Testament that is helpful in understanding what Paul means by the phrase “in Christ” is in Hebrews 5-8. Paul is trying to convince the Jewish Christians that Christ, as their High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, is far superior to the Levitical priest of Judaism. These Jewish Christians were in constant danger of giving up Christ and returning to Judaism. So Paul told them, To give up Christ as your High Priest and to go back to Levi as your priest is a step backward. Don’t give up reality for a substitute.

But to convince them not to give up their faith in Christ as their High Priest, Paul had to prove that Christ, as the believer’s great High Priest, is superior to the Levitical priesthood of the earthly sanctuary that was practiced in Old Testament times. How did he do it?

1. Christ could not belong to the Levitical priesthood because, according to the law of Moses, he had to be a descendant of Levi. Christ was born under the tribe of Judah. Both Joseph and Mary were of the tribe of Judah, so Christ is said to be the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:7-10], a priest who existed in the time of Abraham [Hebrews 6:20].

2. Having established this fact, Paul then explained that Melchizedek was superior to Levi. The proof he gave was that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:10]. However, if you read the Old Testament, Levi, as an individual, never paid tithe to Melchizedek. It was Abraham who paid that tithe. The explanation is that even though Levi, the great grandson of Abraham, did not exist when Abraham met Melchizedek, he was in the loins of his father, therefore Levi was implicated in paying tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham. Because you and I were in Adam when he sinned, we therefore suffered the consequences of his sin.

Likewise, at the incarnation, God took the corporate life of the human race to which we belong and which needs to be redeemed, and, in the womb of Mary, God united the human race and the divine life of Christ so, when Christ was born into this world, he was both God and man. The human aspect of Christ was really the corporate life of the human race whom he came to redeem. That is why Jesus is called the second or last Adam (mankind) [1 Corinthians 15:45].

Qualified

Now this did not save us but it did qualify Jesus to be our legal Substitute or Representative. With this in mind, we go back to Ephesians 2:5. Paul says that God made us, who were dead in trespasses and sins, alive. That is, spiritually alive when we were united with the divinity of Christ at the incarnation. Then he adds: “By grace you have been saved.” This is a powerful statement. He meant that by his perfect life and sacrificial death, he fully satisfied the law in order for the human race to be saved by grace.

He Did It All

There are two things that the law demanded of Jesus as our Substitute in order to save us totally from sin.

1. Jesus had to obey the law perfectly. Throughout the 33 years of his life he obeyed the law perfectly. He told the Jews that he came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it [see Matthew 5]. In Romans 10:4, Paul tells us that “Christ is the end [completion or fulfillment] of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Because Jesus’ humanity was our corporate humanity and we were in him by God’s act, then his obedience can be reckoned or imputed to us because we were in him when he obeyed the law perfectly.

2. Still, this was not enough to save us because we are sinners, and the law says, “The soul who sins is the one who will die” [Ezekiel 18:4]. In the Jewish system, the male was not a man until he reached the age of 30. So Jesus, having obeyed the law perfectly from birth to manhood, took our corporate humanity to the cross. There he submitted that humanity to the wages of sin, so when he died on the cross it was not just one man dying “instead” of all men, but all humanity died in him.

Even though the Bible teaches that Christ died for us, or in our place as our Substitute, the reason he could die for us is because all men were in him. In other words, his death was a corporate death [“One died for all, and therefore all died” (2 Corinthians 5:14)]. All men died in one man, Jesus Christ. This does not mean that we paid the price for sin. He paid the price, but we were implicated in that death even as Levi was implicated when Abraham paid tithe to Melchizedek.[js]

[oldsailor29]

There is no way any of us can say for sure what God can or cannot do.

[Guest WilloMar]

Amen, Robert, here’s an e-mail I sent to a sister in Christ.

Dear Sister C, I totally agree, the Ceremonial Law was devised by the destroyer, not by the Creator. That’s very clearly revealed in Jer. 7:22, 23, Isa. 1:11-16 and 66:3, 4, Ps. 51:16, 17 and 40:6, Pro. 15:8 and Hos. 6:6. Had the deceiver had his way, they would have sacrificed snakes and bats and rats. Imagine, the Creator symbolized by animals; that in itself was an abomination. But the Lord Creator constantly takes people from where they’re at to lead them up to a higher path. That’s why He will never leave nor forsake us. If He did, His influence, no matter how small, would be completely gone. Actually, we leave and forsake Him, which is the wrath of God (Rom. 1:18-28). Also, He had to correct those of Noah’s day. They were eating animals, even before the flood, so the Creator said something like this, “I really don’t want you to do this, but since you insist, eat only these cleaner animals.” God was (is) always trying to lead the ignorant in a way that would be more understandable to them. Even the disciples couldn’t understand all of the truth in their day, because truth is ever advancing.

Regarding the Archangel Michael, yes, He is Jesus Christ the Creator, Saviour (the sin-Bearer) and the Word of God. Since Jesus is the Saviour/Redeemer, He is in all sinful flesh -- He is all and in all: All history is His story. He, who never sinned, became sin to save us from sin; that, incidentally, is the Mystery of the Gospel. It’s as natural for the Creator to place upon Himself all of our sins, as it is for us to do them. He would rather suffer the consequence of sin than to have us suffer it.

Sister C, the important truth for these last days is the revelation of the loving character of God. This we must know so that we, through “the Faith of Jesus,” will become like Him. This knowledge that the Creator has never, nor will ever, kill and destroy is the most important truth to spread throughout the world, today, because it will prepare us to stand in the sight of a holy God without the Mediator when probation closes.

With the love of Christ and the looking for His glorious return, your servant Bill

[Robert]

There is no way any of us can say for sure what God can or cannot do.

Then we are totally in the dark, huh?

[Gerr]

Amen, Robert, here’s an e-mail I sent to a sister in Christ.

Dear Sister C, I totally agree, the Ceremonial Law was devised by the destroyer, not by the Creator.

Never heard that before. Is the book of Leviticus and Exodus missing from your Bible?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But in order to be less selfish, I would have to keep the law! And per your theology, THAT IS LEGALISM!

I grow very weary of your slowness of comprehension. Again what does the law require? Jesus said it just right: "You shall be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

When your position doesn't make sense, blame the other person's stupidity for not understanding the illogical!