Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Please think and pray about it. :-)

I love that line. It is translated as. "I'm right, you're wrong". Twilight, what makes you think that I do not pray and seek guidance from God?

I am born in love with myself. When Jesus says "as yourself" He is implying that I already have a self love. I am to take that love that I have of myself and apply it to my neighbors. He isn't commanding me to love myself. How on earth do you get that?

Lets not forget that we are to empty ourselves so that Christ can fill us up. We are to fall on that rock so Christ can lift us up. The worlds philosophy contradicts the philosophy of the Gospel. While the world teaches that we are to have self confidence. The gospel tells us to be confident in Christ and not ourselves.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Please think and pray about it. :-)

I love that line. It is translated as. "I'm right, you're wrong". Twilight, what makes you think that I do not pray and seek guidance from God?

I am born in love with myself. When Jesus says "as yourself" He is implying that I already have a self love. I am to take that love that I have of myself and apply it to my neighbors. He isn't commanding me to love myself. How on earth do you get that?

Lets not forget that we are to empty ourselves so that Christ can fill us up. We are to fall on that rock so Christ can lift us up. The worlds philosophy contradicts the philosophy of the Gospel. While the world teaches that we are to have self confidence. The gospel tells us to be confident in Christ and not ourselves.

I love that line. It is translated as. "I'm right, you're wrong". Twilight, what makes you think that I do not pray and seek guidance from God?

No my friend, it means exactly what it says.

Take it to God and check it out with Him, as we are to do with all "truths" that are presented to us.

It is saying:

"I am not by default right, you should seek Gods opinion on what I am presenting and if He confirms it, then accept it."

It in no way implies that you do not seek guidance from God in your walk, how could I be the judge of that?

I suggest you have taken this the wrong way and have taken it personally.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Further to your point:

It says:

"Love thy neighbour as thyself."

It does not say:

"Take the love thou has for thyself and apply it to your neighbour instead of yourself."

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Show me (and I'm tired of the dishonesty with Gerry, and now you) where it commands self-love in the phrase, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Yes?

[Robert]

"Take the love thou has for thyself and apply it to your neighbour instead of yourself."

If you're too busy loving yourself how can you love your neighbor? You see if you loved your neighbor the way you naturally love yourself -- buy for yourself -- serve yourself -- treat yourself, -- indulge yourself and make sure every whim is satisfied, well your neighbor would reap the benefits...but that isn't the case, is it?

And your neighbor is not only the person next to you...it's that poor family down the road who can barely survive. Instead you're too busy to love your neighbor seeing that you're preoccupied with yourself. Besides, if you loved them as you do yourself you would be without unless someone was agaping you back.

Now you can see why Jesus was poor. He had no time to indulge the flesh. Instead I see total self-denial....

[Robert]

If you're too busy loving yourself how can you love your neighbor? You see if you loved your neighbor the way you naturally love yourself -- buy for yourself -- serve yourself -- treat yourself, -- indulge yourself and make sure every whim is satisfied, well your neighbor would reap the benefits...but that isn't the case, is it?

Take for example EGW's comment found in DA:

"You will have that love [agape] which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

That's a comment on "love your neighbor as yourself". Notice that she has it right! Agape doesn't look out for its own interests (it's not self-seeking), instead it looks out for the interest (wealth) of others."

Sorry, your wrong. Just admit it.

You know why folks, especially SDA, don't admit it? Because then they would have to admit they aren't measuring up to the spirit of the law! That's hurts their spiritual pride...their love of self.

Rob

[Robert]

Now you can see why Jesus was poor. He had no time to indulge the flesh. Instead I see total self-denial....

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Further to your point:

It says:

"Love thy neighbour as thyself."

It does not say:

"Take the love thou has for thyself and apply it to your neighbour instead of yourself."

God bless,

Mark :-)

"Love thy neighbor as thyself." = Love your neighbor...as[just like you already have] yourself. It doesn't say "Love your neighbor and yourself." As yourself....As yourself....love them as you love yourself....love them as you already love yourself....As...as...as.as.as.as.as.as.as.as....AS...lol....not and...AS...

PS. Those "ROFL" guys are hilarious.

[Gerr]

"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?”

Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength

The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these." Mk 12:28-31 ESV.

[Robert]

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Gerry's version [two commands]: 'You shall love your neighbor and yourself.’

The Bible's version [one command]: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Gerry's version [two commands]: 'You shall love your neighbor and yourself.’

The Bible's version [one command]: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Look at what you have done. Your capacity to twist Scripture and what others say even when quoting Scripture verbatim knows no bounds!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gerry's version [two commands]: 'You shall love your neighbor and yourself.’

The Bible's version [one command]: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Your capacity to twist Scripture and what others say even when quoting Scripture verbatim knows no bounds!

Okay, then we are not commanded to love self and love our neighbor?

Rob

[Robert]

They will be continually growing away from selfishness....

[Robert]

The Bible's version [one command]: ‘You shall love [agape] your neighbor as yourself.’

You see by definition "agape...is not self-seeking." Again, there's no "self" in agape. That's why EGW states that "none will think of self...." So we have been delivered under law. Why? Because the law brings the curse.

Since we have been delivered from under the law shall we indulge the flesh, i.e., become more selfish? No!

EGW: "Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.”

Why? Not because they are self-centered, but because they cherished the love of self. They refused to repent of their vileness.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Your capacity to twist Scripture and what others say even when quoting Scripture verbatim knows no bounds!

Okay' date=' then we are not commanded to love self and love our neighbor?

Rob

[/quote']

The command is: You shall love your neighbor AS yourself, i.e. in the same manner. Not less than yourself. If you want to go the second mile and love them more than yourself, then there is no law against it. Some do sacrifice their lives for others. To be selfish is to be focussed on one's self to the detriment of others. To love others in the same manner as one loves one's self is to regard them as no less important as yourself.

Everything else that the law and the prophets teaches on how we treat others, Jesus said hangs on this law. Nothing they said invalidates it.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Bible's version [one command]: ‘You shall love [agape] your neighbor as yourself.’

You see by definition "agape...is not self-seeking." Again, there's no "self" in agape.

If you had said, "there is no selfishness or self-centeredness in agape," I would agree with you 1000%! But to say that there is no "self" in agape is to misunderstand God's creation. No two snowflakes, no two flowers, no two blades of grass, NO TWO OF ANYTHING in all God's creation are the same. If there is no "self" in God's creation, everything would be the same! He would have used a cookie cutter! You are confusing "self" with "selfishness" and "self-centeredness."

" Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do. The men in whom this power is developed are the men who bear responsibilities, who are leaders in enterprise, and who influence character. It is the work of true education to develop this power, to train the youth to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men’s thought. Instead of confining their study to that which men have said or written, let students be directed to the sources of truth, to the vast fields opened for research in nature and revelation. Let them contemplate the great facts of duty and destiny, and the mind will expand and strengthen. [bEGIN P.18] Instead of educated weaklings, institutions of learning may send forth men strong to think and to act, men who are masters and not slaves of circumstances, men who possess breadth of mind, clearness of thought, and the courage of their convictions

White, E. G. (1903; 2002). Education (17). Pacific Press Publishing Association."

INDIVIDUALITY - that's "self". The "self" is what sets you apart from every other being in God's vast universe. And since every individual, every "self" is important to God, NO ONE can love "self" to the exclusion or depreciation of another.

You cannot develop this "individuality", the "self" while you keep depreciating it. You cannot develop this power "to think and to do" while you keep depreciating the value of education/self-improvement.

Quote:

That's why EGW states that "none will think of self...."

Until you can accept other statements by EGW, you should stop quoting her. You do her a disservice by clinging to her like superglue when you like what she says, and then treat her like a pariah when her words contradict your cherished opinions.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Phil 2:3" Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Did you notice your own quote? You even underlined it! Paul said, "Each of you should look NOT ONLY to your own interests, but ALSO to the interests of others!" That's loving others AS you love yourself! That's doing to others what you would have them do to you!

Quote:

That's advice for those under grace, but under law self-seeking is sin. Now who among you desires to be under law? Nobody?

Rob

You are confusing law as a way of salvation and obedience to law as a love response to God who hates sin, just as you are confusing "self-seeking" with the love that loves a neighbor with the same love AS one loves one's self.

"Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day.

Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me.

I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation." Ps 119:97-99 ESV

"Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 ESV

"I will always obey your law, for ever and ever.

I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts." Ps 119:44,45 NIV

[Robert]

Did you notice your own quote? You even underlined it!

As I said, "That's advice for those under grace, but under law self-seeking is sin."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Did you notice your own quote? You even underlined it!

As I said, "That's advice for those under grace, but under law self-seeking is sin."

And, as I already stated, EGW gives the same advice:

"Growing away from selfishness" and "less proud self-seeking, less self-importance"

You see the law doesn't doesn't give advice....It doesn't say, "please, sin less". No, it says, "Disobey and die".

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. This Jesus desired to reveal to the young man [RYR]....He professed to have kept the commandments, but he was destitute of the principle which is the very spirit and life of them all [agape]....In his love of self and worldly gain he was out of harmony with the principles with heaven." [COL 392]

Did the RYR keep the letter of the law? Yes, but all he did was to be seen of men. Everything he did was for a selfish motive. The same is true of the Pharisees. They loved the best seats...to be called Rabbi, Rabbi, but everything they did was to be seen of men. In fact the Pharisees were lovers of money. Lu 16:14 - "And the Pharisees, who were lovers of money,...."

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus [and, I might add, the Rich Young Ruler], that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls [when we understand God's agape], we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

That's why you must be changed, Gerry, before you can enter into heaven. If God let you into heaven your love of self would turn it upside down. That's why Lucifer wasn't allowed to remain. After all he found God's agape love too restrictive.

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

In complete opposition to heaven, Paul tells us that, "men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money [self-seeking], boastful, haughty,...." 2Ti 3:2

[Robert]

“In heaven itself this law ["the law of life"] was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.” [DA 21]

Lucifer had said, “I will be like the Most High” (Isa. 14:12, 14); and the desire for self-exaltation had brought strife into the heavenly courts, and had banished a multitude of the hosts of God. Had Lucifer really desired to be like the Most High, he would never have deserted his appointed place in heaven; for the spirit of the Most High is manifested in unselfish ministry. Lucifer desired God’s power, but not His character. He sought for himself the highest place, and every being who is actuated by his spirit will do the same. Thus alienation, discord, and strife will be inevitable. [DA 435]

[Robert]

“In heaven itself this law ["the law of life"] was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.” [DA 21]

Jack Sequeira made an interesting observation. Let me repeat it here:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

How does the world influence education?

"There is an education which is essentially worldly. Its aim is success in the world ($), the gratification of selfish ambition”

“Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.”

"Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.”

[Gerr]

Voila! ALL education therefore is evil! ALL love for self is evil!

[Twilight]

The command is: You shall love your neighbor AS yourself, i.e. in the same manner. Not less than yourself. If you want to go the second mile and love them more than yourself, then there is no law against it. Some do sacrifice their lives for others. To be selfish is to be focussed on one's self to the detriment of others. To love others in the same manner as one loves one's self is to regard them as no less important as yourself.

Everything else that the law and the prophets teaches on how we treat others, Jesus said hangs on this law. Nothing they said invalidates it.

Amen :-)

This is plain. :-)

It is only when we mix up the idea of the carnal nature and the new man in the term "self" that we get confused.

We have an identity, a "self" that must die, a carnal identity.

But we also receive a new "self" a new identity that God has made for us and we receive.

Understanding this removes all confusion.

Mark.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You see by definition "agape...is not self-seeking." Again' date=' there's no "self" in agape.

If you had said, "there is no selfishness or self-centeredness in agape," I would agree with you 1000%! But to say that there is no "self" in agape is to misunderstand God's creation. No two snowflakes, no two flowers, no two blades of grass, NO TWO OF ANYTHING in all God's creation are the same. If there is no "self" in God's creation, everything would be the same! He would have used a cookie cutter! You are confusing "self" with "selfishness" and "self-centeredness."

" Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do. The men in whom this power is developed are the men who bear responsibilities, who are leaders in enterprise, and who influence character. It is the work of true education to develop this power, to train the youth to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men’s thought. Instead of confining their study to that which men have said or written, let students be directed to the sources of truth, to the vast fields opened for research in nature and revelation. Let them contemplate the great facts of duty and destiny, and the mind will expand and strengthen. [bEGIN P.18'] Instead of educated weaklings, institutions of learning may send forth men strong to think and to act, men who are masters and not slaves of circumstances, men who possess breadth of mind, clearness of thought, and the courage of their convictions

White, E. G. (1903; 2002). Education (17). Pacific Press Publishing Association."

INDIVIDUALITY - that's "self". The "self" is what sets you apart from every other being in God's vast universe. And since every individual, every "self" is important to God, NO ONE can love "self" to the exclusion or depreciation of another.

You cannot develop this "individuality", the "self" while you keep depreciating it. You cannot develop this power "to think and to do" while you keep depreciating the value of education/self-improvement.

Quote:

That's why EGW states that "none will think of self...."

Until you can accept other statements by EGW, you should stop quoting her. You do her a disservice by clinging to her like superglue when you like what she says, and then treat her like a pariah when her words contradict your cherished opinions.

Until you can accept other statements by EGW, you should stop quoting her. You do her a disservice by clinging to her like superglue when you like what she says, and then treat her like a pariah when her words contradict your cherished opinions.

Amen!

Robert you have already admitted you take the good and reject the "bad" when considering Ellen White.

Good and bad according to who?

YOU, Robert...

Inspiration by pick and mix.

And this is why all your arguments tend to the "extremes", all the ones I have seen so far.

Why?

Because it seems that everything is interpreted through your own private interpretation, if it does not fit, it is ignored or cast out.

That is why it is very difficult to discuss anything with you.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Our individual interpretation is all any of us have.

B it B the Bible or Ellen White .... we all interpret it just a little differently.

I would ask the question ... Which person here feels that they alone have the 'true' interpretation of scripture and EGW? Really ... none of us do. We all have much to learn. And we will continue to learn of this truth about God ... even in heaven.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

“In heaven itself this law ["the law of life"] was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.” [DA 21]

Jack Sequeira made an interesting observation. Let me repeat it here:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

How does the world influence education?

"There is an education which is essentially worldly. Its aim is success in the world ($), the gratification of selfish ambition”

“Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.”

"Those who have been actuated by selfishness and human ambition, who have been striving to be greatest, who have been self-important, who have felt above confessing mistakes and errors, will have no place in the kingdom of God.”

No one is arguing that the carnal self should be served Robert.

But that again this simple truth is taken to an unnecessary extreme.

An extreme that removes any sense of self respect or value.

You create a rod that the Lord did not.

Mark :-)