New Dishwasher

[Woody]

I just can't handle all the wild sensationalism going on in this thread.

Back to reality.

[Dr. Shane]

From dishwashers to rape!

Once the topic of credit cards was introduced, it wasn't much of a jump from there.

[Outta Here]

Try to rent a hotel room without a credit card.

Go ahead. Try it.

[Dr. Shane]

I have done it many times over the past several years. I have never had one problem. Not one.

[Dr. Shane]

I have also rented cars without a credit card. That is not as easy. Some car rental places will not rent without a credit card but most will. They do freeze up a certain amount of money in the debit account and that amount of money remains frozen for up to two weeks after returning the car. That really isn't a big deal if a person has an emergency fund because the money isn't doing anything anyway other than sitting there waiting for an emergency. The amount that gets frozen is anywhere between $150 and $300, depending on the car rental place. If a person has 3 to 6 months expenses in an emergency fund, having $300 frozen for two weeks isn't going to be a big deal.

[Dr. Shane]

When traveling into Mexico by car one has to get a permit from the government. This permit allows the government to track your car. They want to make sure you don't sell it in Mexico. The permit must be purchased with a credit card so they can fine you if you do not return the permit within a specified time period. I have also purchased these permits with my debit card and they did not even freeze up any of the funds in my account.

When traveling I do recommend traveler's checks. I have used my debit card in Mexico, Costa Rica and El Salvador. However an ATM machine did short me $100 in Mexico once and I was unable to recover it. It would have happened the same way with a credit card getting a cash advance. I claimed that I was shorted and made a complaint to my bank. The ATM company said I was given the money. It was my word against theirs and being in a foreign country there was little legal recourse. There are many credit card scams in foreign countries so Americans need to be careful using credit or debit cards abroad. Back when I had a credit card I once made a three minute phone call from Mexico to the US that cost me $75. I tried to fight that but to no avail. Another option is to log onto Western Union's website and wire yourself money when abroad.

[Gerr]

You pay the bank for traveler's checks. You pay the money changer when you exchange it for local currency.

We lost over $1000 when we went on a mission trip to Ukraine. The gov't confiscated the cash.

Nah, I'll stick to my credit cards. I see nothing immoral or unethical for me to use it.

[Dr. Shane]

Indeed it costs money to buy traveler's checks. That is insurance. Insurance isn't free.

Everyone pays the money changer regardless how they are getting their money. When in a foreign country one can draw cash from an ATM with a credit or debit card. One can also go into a bank and draw cash with a teller. The exchange rate is going to depend upon the bank or the ATM used. Whoever is changing the money is going to make some money on the transaction. A credit card doesn't get anyone away from that.

The only thing unethical about credit cards is accepting perks which are paid for by the poor, elderly and foolish paying high interest rates. If a person doesn't accept perks than credit cards are just foolishness due to poor planning. I have been there and done that so I can't look down on those stuck in that trap. I can say, however, that there is a better way. The invention of the debit card has meant financial freedom to thousands and made credit cards obsolete.

[Outta Here]

Actually, it's just the "foolish" that end paying high interest rates. It's got nothing to do with being poor or elderly.

I'm with Gerry (and several others) on this: I see nothing immoral or unethical in my use of them.

[Dr. Shane]

So we go back to blaming the victim.

80% of Americans have credit cards. The average balance is $7,000. The credit card companies have a lot of people on the hook.

As Christians we approach finance differently than the world does. No one has yet explained to me the convenience offered by a credit card that I cannot get with an emergency fund and debit card. Nor has anyone explained to me why a person would use a credit card to purchase something if they have the money to pay it off in full at the end of the month.

As Christians, are we a peculiar people? Or do we approach personal finance like the rest of the world does?

[bonnie]

Quote:

As Christians we approach finance differently than the world does. No one has yet explained to me the convenience offered by a credit card that I cannot get with an emergency fund and debit card. Nor has anyone explained to me why a person would use a credit card to purchase something if they have the money to pay it off in full at the end of the month.

No one needs to answer to you as to their approach to finances.

As long as they pay their bills and you are not required to why would you care if someone uses a credit card to purchase something if they have the money to pay for it.

Quote:

As Christians, are we a peculiar people? Or do we approach personal finance like the rest of the world does?

It may just be that a fellow christian chooses a method that works for them

[Dr. Shane]

As Adventists we make a pretty big deal about our diet. Yet money is mentioned in the Bible over 800 times. In Matthew 6:21 Jesus says, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." I don't think anything that profound is mentioned regarding the food we eat. What some people think is "working for them" is actually working for the bank. We had a financial workshop at our church where each family anonymously wrote down how much debt they had excluding their home mortgage. In our church of about 300 members we had nearly $5 million of debt among our members EXCLUDING home mortgages. Imagine how much interest is being paid each month on all that debt and try to compare it to what is being put in the offering plate.

There are times we are justified in borrowing money. Ellen White even said there are times we must borrow money to move the work forward. However I have yet to see how borrowing money with a credit card fits into the Biblical model of Christian finance. I challenge anyone to explain how a credit card enables us to better serve God and our fellow man. Everything I have seen by the handful of people participating in this thread can be done with an emergency fund and a debit card.

[bonnie]

Quote:

As Adventists we make a pretty big deal about our diet. Yet money is mentioned in the Bible over 800 times. In Matthew 6:21 Jesus says, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." I don't think anything that profound is mentioned regarding the food we eat. What some people think is "working for them" is actually working for the bank. We had a financial workshop at our church where each family anonymously wrote down how much debt they had excluding their home mortgage. In our church of about 300 members we had nearly $5 million of debt among our members EXCLUDING home mortgages. Imagine how much interest is being paid each month on all that debt and try to compare it to what is being put in the offering plate.

There are many profound issues in the bible. Using a credit card is no more having your heart in the credit card company than in your mortgage company

I noticed that you left home mortgages out of the equation.

What you are saying about CC can be said about the bank that holds your mortgage. In fact it is very easy to shave 10-15 years off your mortgage.

I took a close look at the number of years we would be paying just the bank for the privilege of having a mortgage.

I didn't like what I saw. I added 25.00 per month to our house payment without fail. I sent the payment twice a month.

The following year I paid 50.00 per month and stayed there.

Our home was paid for by the time we were in our early forties.

If you are not doing the same thing is it an indication of where "your treasure is"

There are times we are justified in borrowing money. Ellen White even said there are times we must borrow money to move the work forward. However I have yet to see how borrowing money with a credit card fits into the Biblical model of Christian finance. I challenge anyone to explain how a credit card enables us to better serve God and our fellow man. Everything I have seen by the handful of people participating in this thread can be done with an emergency fund and a debit card.

[Gerr]

So we go back to blaming the victim.[/quote[

People that voluntarily get themselves into a mess are victims?

Such a people get themselves way over their heads, file for bankruptcy and don't have to pay back money they spent. NOW who is the victim and the victimizer?

Debit card, credit card. I don't see much difference. You put your money ahead of time to cover your debit card; I put mine in a month later.

[Woody]

I used to put coins in a box for my electricity and when the coins ran out I had to quickly find some coins and in the dark put some in.

Now days I wait till I get a bill which means I sponge off the electric company. You might call it the dreaded 'c' word credit.

Shame on me. Takin' advantage of that electric company.

[Dr. Shane]

People that voluntarily get themselves into a mess are victims?

[Dr. Shane]

I wait till I get a bill which means I sponge off the electric company. You might call it the dreaded 'c' word credit.

Shame on me. Takin' advantage of that electric company.

Pretty much apples and oranges. No one is financing their electric service. Electric companies do not provide a financing option unless the government requires them to do so (such as during the winter in some northern states). If a customer does not meet the terms on their invoice their power will be cut off.

Using electricity before a person gets the bill is no more sponging off the electric company than allowing the local supermarket to buy food and stock their shelves before we go in and purchase the food from them. The food we eat is first purchased by the supermarket before we ever go into the store. The supermarket is than out-of-pocket that money until will purchase it from them. It is the same with the electric company. They have to generate power and deliver it to our homes before they can charge us for it. It is like many other businesses. Factories have to manufacture product and deliver it before they can invoice for it. This process is not even comparable to the credit card industry. The credit card industry is selling money - not electricity, furniture or food. The cost that credit cards charge for money is what we call interest.

Christians should avoid paying unnecessary interest. It is literally squandering money. Years ago Christians could justify having a credit card as a necessary evil because a credit card was needed to rent a car, reserve a motel room or purchase something over the phone. The invention of the debit card changed all that. Credit cards are no longer a "necessary" evil; they are just evil.

[Outta Here]

No they're not.

[Dr. Shane]

Every business must occur out-of-pocket expenses in order to market and sell their product or services. Grocery stores do this. Kitty litter factories do this. Farmers do this. Electrical power companies do this. This is where the old slogan "it takes money to make money" comes from. These companies are compensated for their investment when they are able to deliver their product to their respective markets. Each of these companies gain back their investment plus a profit.

Credit card companies sell money. That is their product. The cost they charge for money is interest. There is a small minority of credit card customers that pay their bill in full each month and never get charged interest. In their circumstance, they are taking money for nothing. The credit card company is giving them money and not charging them for it. But nothing is free, is it? Someone always pays, don't they? The other customers that have been enticed into the credit card trap are the ones paying. So these people in the minority that think they are getting something for free are actually being subsidized by the victims of the credit card companies.

There use to be a justification for playing with credit card fire. That justification was that an individual needed a credit card to rent a car, reserve a motel or purchase products over the phone. The debit card has now annulled that justification. We can now store up an emergency fund and get a debit card. That is only responsible. We can stop living on other people's money. Having a credit card is playing with fire. That credit card is always a temptation to make a purchase we can't pay off at the end of the month. A few church members have enough will power to stop the diarrhea when they have it but for the rest, the constant enticement of the credit card companies usually results in carrying a balance on a high interest card with ever changing terms. The result of that is the squandering of money on unnecessary interest and fees.

The fact is that there are people reading this thread right now that are victims of the credit card companies and know exactly what I am talking about. I understand how they got to where they are. There is a handful of self-righteous, judgmental folks here that have no pity and compassion for them. I don't think that attitude represents the church in general. There is a way out of debt and it doesn't have to include bankruptcy. People can, and many do, live debt free. When something happens like a dishwasher breaking or a car quitting, we don't have to go into debt if we have made preparation. Many local churches have stewardship directors that help people get on such plans. Dave Ramsey can also help through his website and books.

"Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! ...yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest." (Prob. 6:6, 8) We all know this is right. Our grandmothers told us as much. Save up some money for a rainy day and don't spend money you don't have.

[bonnie]

Quote:

This ignores the fact that these people are enticed. Like a prostitute entices a john. The john is wrong to give into the temptation of lust but that does not excuse the enticement and deception of the prostitute.

The majority of guilt in the above has been neatly placed on the prostitute.

I don't know about other women but if my husband were caught with a prostitute and then claimed "he was enticed" and couldn't help it, He best be prepared to take a short walk to a lawyer. He would be needing one

Quote:

And who gets them there? They are enticed. They max out their credit cards because the credit card companies encourage them to do so.

He gets there because he has an interest already and has placed himself willingly in "harms way"

Quote:

Big difference. I am spending my money and the credit card user is spending OPM (other people's money).

Same as the mortgage company or the bank if you take out a auto loan.

[Outta Here]

The only judgmental folks I've seen in this thread are those who are judging the credit card companies as being evil.

I think most of the advice you've given people here about living financially free of debt is extremely wise. Most people would do well if they would follow your advice. However, credit card companies are not evil. They are honest about their practices, they use legal contracts and give full-disclosure.

Credit card companies appreciate customers who pay their bills on time--in fact, without timely customers, they would not have money to continue lending to others. Credit card companies NEED people to pay their bills on time, just as other companies need their consumers to pay their bills on time.

Other reputable businesses offer incentives for people to purchase their products and use their services. At what cost? At the cost of raising prices, raising rates and/or cutting profits. There are buy-one-get-one deals at the shoe store, the supermarket and even the auto dealers! There are half-off prices at the end isles in the department stores. At thanksgiving, some stores offer free turkeys. Furniture stores have no monthly payments, no interest down, no down payment deals. The carwash sells "buy 9 washes get a 10th free" cards. The list is endless.

The point is, credit card companies are no more evil than any other company looking to make a profit. They are honest about their dealings, they give full-disclosure up-front and legally make binding contracts with people who choose to use their services.

I agree with the advice from proverbs: Be wise (and stop being foolish).

[GreatLakesGramma]

Shane, I checked out that prepaid debit card from WalMart you told about. Not only do you have to pay a fee for each transaction, you also have to pay a fee to transfer money into it online. No way am I going to run into town to WalMart every time I decide to buy something online. Neither am I going to leave money sitting in a non-interest bearing card in case I do make purchases between my regular trips to town, nor pay a fee to transfer money into it. That is poor stewardship.

The merchants I do business with pay more than enough in fees to cover my credit card use. I am not receiving anything paid for by people who have gotten in over their heads. They are just adding to the credit card company's profits. And so long as the merchants I do business with are willing to pay those fees, for the privilege of having me buy from them instead of from someone else, I will continue to use a credit card.

[Dr. Shane]

There are bad companies that operate within legal parameters. Tobacco companies sell a legal product that kills thousands. Alcohol companies sell a legal product that creates dependency and destroys lives and families. Casinos, horse and dog tracks sell entertainment that is addictive and brings financial ruin to thousands of families. Some manufacturing plants are allowed to dump certain levels of toxins into rivers and streams. Abortion clinics snuff out innocent life just as it is beginning. Some government contractors take advantage of no-bid contracts and rob the tax payers. These are bad companies and exposing them is generally not considered judgmental. Credit card companies fall into this same category.

I do not judge credit card users. I try to open their eyes to the evils of the credit card companies. I understand how people can be sucked in and enticed by these companies. I have compassion and pity for them.

Credit card companies do need customers that pay on time BUT that also carry a balance. If all credit card customers paid their full balance within the grace period the card companies would have to eliminate the grace period. The credit card companies make their money off from interest and fees. About 90% of their revenue is made off from interest and 10% made off from late fees and penalties. If a credit card customer always pays their full balance within the grace period than someone else is actually paying for the interest on the money they borrowed. For example: if I buy $500 worth of gasoline in July and pay for it in August someone had to finance that for a few weeks. If I pay it off within the grace period I pay no interest. However credit card companies can't stay in business if no one is paying interest. Someone has to pay. Those that carry balances and pay interest are carrying those that don't.

Please, don't credit me with this great advice. I am as much of a fool as anyone else. If it wasn't for the stewardship director of my church getting me onto the Dave Ramsey plan, I wouldn't have had my emergency fund to buy the dishwasher and would have probably had to buy it on credit.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, I checked out that prepaid debit card from WalMart you told about.

[carolaa]

I used to put coins in a box for my electricity and when the coins ran out I had to quickly find some coins and in the dark put some in.

Now days I wait till I get a bill which means I sponge off the electric company. You might call it the dreaded 'c' word credit.

Shame on me. Takin' advantage of that electric company.

I'll betcha you put down a deposit to cover that sponging you are doing.