Have you noticed lately....?

[cardw]

Quote:

Because when God forgives, He heals....He heals the soul that is broken....

I want to address this separately because I believe that forgiveness heals, but most people I meet have no problem accepting some god's forgiveness. They have far more difficulty forgiving themselves.

This language of forgiveness would not even exist without a god's or law's universal condemnation. To me, when it's useful, it's a transitional language for people having a god world view that's punitive.

There are other views that bypass the idea of laws and judgments all together, except those who are under that god world view are afraid that all hell will break loose if we take away all the fear. It has been my observation that the fear itself is what is causing the problems. Fear of not having enough, fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of public humiliation, fear of loss of control, and a whole list of fear motivations that create what most Christians would call sin.

The history of Christianity is far more about fear than it has been about love. Its to the point that the word Christian is almost synonymous with fear and shame. It's interesting that the rate of divorce actually increases after a couple has been "born again." And this is from church based surveys.

These kinds of things got me asking questions and eventually brought me to a far more joyful place. That's what I Know.

[Richard Holbrook]

Hmmm??? Then tell me, just what law did Adam break since the Ten Commandments had not been given until the time of Moses?

Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

He put Eve ahead of God.

[Richard Holbrook]

God's Law was in heaven. That's what lucifer rebelled against.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Hmmm??? Then tell me, just what law did Adam break since the Ten Commandments had not been given until the time of Moses?

Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

He put Eve ahead of God.

Ex. 20: 13, 15.

He stole the fruit that did not rightfully belong to him, and in so doing, he was murdering himself and his posterity.

After that, he lied about Eve by blaming her for his sin. So we can add Ex. 20: 16, the law against bearing false witness.

[Richard Holbrook]

Never thought of that

[Dr. Rich]

LOL!!! I just woke up my wife laughing out loud!

No--You might try listening to tonight's bible study at www.talkshoe,com and then do a search for the bible on trial. Here is the thing--God tested Adam the same way he tested Abram and Israel. He just wanted them to obey Him. Just obey what He told them to do. It is that easy! The tree itself did not have any sinful thing about it, Adam just didn't obey. Period! The blood at passover didn't do anything either--it was what they were told to do by God that was the test.

The Ten Commandments were a test to Israel and to the Kingdom of Heaven RIGHT NOW! So are the words of Jesus Christ. If we past this test, then you will be sinless, therefore become righteous.

Satan was dead wrong when He told Eve that it was impossible for her to obey God and that it didn't matter because God's grace and love would not kill her/

The writer of Romans said the same thing--that God's grace and love is so great and since it was impossible to keep the Ten Commandments that God will not kill you.

Why people can't see this is beyond me. Please do yourself a favor and listen to tonights program--all the way. See if you can find ONE thing wrong with it.

[Richard Holbrook]

I know for a fact it would be more than one thing.

[Richard Holbrook]

It's true he didn't obey and that was a sin. But what John said is also true.

[John317]

The tree itself did not have any sinful thing about it, Adam just didn't obey.

True. There was nothing wrong with the fruit or the tree. There is nothing wrong with any other days of the week either. The test of the trees in the Garden is very similar to God's test regarding the Sabbath. Both tests depend strictly on the commandment of God. Everyone has the same amount of time and everyone can obey if they will. It doesn't require special talent or anything else that some people might not have. It's the perfect test.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John317--I guess I forgot to add this, but this is very important for us as SDA to remember.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Look, Jesus is not out to condemn you, and neither am I going to give you that stuff about Law and forgiveness...Heck, you're a former SDA. You know that inside and out...what you lack is a real experience with God...and God starts out with healing thru forgiveness...Like all broken humanity, we all need healing....

I have experience, but I don't think its the god of the Bible.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Because when God forgives, He heals....He heals the soul that is broken....

I want to address this separately because I believe that forgiveness heals, but most people I meet have no problem accepting some god's forgiveness. They have far more difficulty forgiving themselves.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You talk like there is some other option than our own perception.

Unless you have some superhuman ability that I don't you are using your own "logic" to make the determination that what you believe is true.

You may act under the authority of how you interpret the Bible, but it was your own logic that decided that this is what you wanted to do. It is also your won logic that you use to understand what YOU believe the Bible is trying to say.

To use your language you could be guilty of making an idol of the bible or your own ability to think.

Indeed it could, but if someone is relying on the light from God as their guide and with a sincere heart seeking further light, then they are looking away from self.

They are not setting themselves up as the "measure" of all truth.

They will humbly accept that they do not understand or know anything unless God has shown them.

The opposite of this is those that believe their "logic" or "intellect" is sufficient to measure the world.

For that to be the case they would need to be omniscient and omnipresent.

They would have to be God...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I know for a fact it works. It works for me. When it wasn't working I knew it wasn't God's fault. I have never blamed God for my lack of willingness to let him make some changes.

There is no blame that I could lay on God for my own desire to live a certain way. Walking with God is a one day at a time thing, and the slightest bit of willingness will open the door. If you don't have any, you can ask for that, and he will give it.

When I was a believer I had tons of willingness. The reason it doesn't work is because that god is not there.

Since I stopped trying to be perfect and stopped judging every little thing I did or didn't do, life is much more full of joy, peace, compassion, and interest. This idea that we are terrible sinful beings simply uses shame to shut people down.

When I make a mistake its my fault. When I am successful its my success. I can see that very clearly. I am certainly grateful to those sources of information that allow me to learn how to do things better, but it is still me who chooses to do things differently and it is me who acts on that information, because if I didn't act nothing would change.

When I see Christians say its all Jesus when complemented for something, I think, "Well you must have had something to do with it."

Success doesn't have to be about pride, sometimes its just a fact.

Just because you did not find the path, does not mean it does not exist...

It is real, by the grace of God, I experience it.

Mark :-)

[True-believer]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When I was a believer I had tons of willingness. The reason it doesn't work is because that god is not there.

Since I stopped trying to be perfect and stopped judging every little thing I did or didn't do, life is much more full of joy, peace, compassion, and interest. This idea that we are terrible sinful beings simply uses shame to shut people down.

When I make a mistake its my fault. When I am successful its my success. I can see that very clearly. I am certainly grateful to those sources of information that allow me to learn how to do things better, but it is still me who chooses to do things differently and it is me who acts on that information, because if I didn't act nothing would change.

When I see Christians say its all Jesus when complemented for something, I think, "Well you must have had something to do with it."

Success doesn't have to be about pride, sometimes its just a fact. [/quote']

Just because you did not find the path, does not mean it does not exist...

It is real, by the grace of God, I experience it.

Mark :-)

I found that path too Mark, Hallalujah, Praise the Lord.

[Twilight]

Never thought of that

Eve also coveted the fruit - 10th commandment.

[Twilight]

LOL!!! I just woke up my wife laughing out loud!

No--You might try listening to tonight's bible study at www.talkshoe,com and then do a search for the bible on trial. Here is the thing--God tested Adam the same way he tested Abram and Israel. He just wanted them to obey Him. Just obey what He told them to do. It is that easy! The tree itself did not have any sinful thing about it, Adam just didn't obey. Period! The blood at passover didn't do anything either--it was what they were told to do by God that was the test.

The Ten Commandments were a test to Israel and to the Kingdom of Heaven RIGHT NOW! So are the words of Jesus Christ. If we past this test, then you will be sinless, therefore become righteous.

Satan was dead wrong when He told Eve that it was impossible for her to obey God and that it didn't matter because God's grace and love would not kill her/

The writer of Romans said the same thing--that God's grace and love is so great and since it was impossible to keep the Ten Commandments that God will not kill you.

Why people can't see this is beyond me. Please do yourself a favor and listen to tonights program--all the way. See if you can find ONE thing wrong with it.

The idea that you can render obedience of yourself, is the most basic error here.

Mark

[Twilight]

LOL!!! I just woke up my wife laughing out loud!

No--You might try listening to tonight's bible study at www.talkshoe,com and then do a search for the bible on trial. Here is the thing--God tested Adam the same way he tested Abram and Israel. He just wanted them to obey Him. Just obey what He told them to do. It is that easy! The tree itself did not have any sinful thing about it, Adam just didn't obey. Period! The blood at passover didn't do anything either--it was what they were told to do by God that was the test.

The Ten Commandments were a test to Israel and to the Kingdom of Heaven RIGHT NOW! So are the words of Jesus Christ. If we past this test, then you will be sinless, therefore become righteous.

Satan was dead wrong when He told Eve that it was impossible for her to obey God and that it didn't matter because God's grace and love would not kill her/

The writer of Romans said the same thing--that God's grace and love is so great and since it was impossible to keep the Ten Commandments that God will not kill you.

Why people can't see this is beyond me. Please do yourself a favor and listen to tonights program--all the way. See if you can find ONE thing wrong with it.

Quote from SOP:

Man is Satan's captive and is naturally inclined to follow his suggestions and do his bidding. He has in himself no power to oppose effectual resistance to evil. It is only as Christ abides in him by living faith . . . that man may venture to face so terrible a foe. Every other means of defense is utterly vain. It is only through Christ that Satan's power is limited. This is a momentous truth that all should understand. Satan is busy every moment, going to and fro, walking up and down in the earth, seeking whom he may devour. But the earnest prayer of faith will baffle his strongest efforts. . . .

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I found that path too Mark, Hallalujah, Praise the Lord.

I recognise it in you my friend. :-)

Mark

[phkrause]

Good reply's John and Richard. Even if it wasn't written down through the ages, you'd think that we would understand that God's 10 moral rules/commandments have always been around. Just seems like common sense to me.

pk

[Dr. Rich]

PK, you actually believe this when the writer of Romans tells us differently--that the ten commandments were given to Moses--years after Adam and Abraham?

What I believe sin is--is not obeying God---period! Lucifer didn't do this and it was considered sin. Adam didn't do this and it was considered sin.

[Richard Holbrook]

Anytime you disobey God you are breaking God's law. You cannot disobey God without breaking his law.

[cardw]

Quote:

Indeed it could, but if someone is relying on the light from God as their guide and with a sincere heart seeking further light, then they are looking away from self.

They are not setting themselves up as the "measure" of all truth.

They will humbly accept that they do not understand or know anything unless God has shown them.

The opposite of this is those that believe their "logic" or "intellect" is sufficient to measure the world.

For that to be the case they would need to be omniscient and omnipresent.

They would have to be God...

This is what I observe.

There are all these Christians that claim they know the right answer. To me that looks like they are setting themselves up as the measure of truth. They have decided through their own human logic that the bible has all the answers. They have even decided that they have interpreted it so correctly that they have the right to tell me what is The Truth.

This is what I have said. I am reasonably sure that the god of the Bible does not exist. To me this is obvious when you read the history of its formation and look at the results of it being in power both in the Bible and within the middle ages. The Bible clearly supports slavery and is deplorable on women's rights. It views women as property. Those who have believed in the Bible have resisted every major advance in knowledge and social reform from astronomy to anti slavery to the women's movement. When you read the history of the abolitionist movement you will see a lot of rhetoric calling abolitionists atheists. Today you will see a lot of rhetoric calling those involved in the women's movement atheistic lesbians. There are over 40,000 Christian denominations and sects each claiming to have The Truth about the world and god.

As far as god is concerned I have said that I don't know and that its probably unknowable.

So who is claiming to know the mind of god and the "measure of the world?"

Christians or me?

It looks like the Christians are claiming to have god like powers of perception to me.

[cardw]

Quote:

Just because you did not find the path, does not mean it does not exist...

It is real, by the grace of God, I experience it.

I didn't say that there wasn't a path, but from my understanding and study that path doesn't present itself exclusively through Christianity and Christians who find the path may be finding it in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Indeed it could, but if someone is relying on the light from God as their guide and with a sincere heart seeking further light, then they are looking away from self.

They are not setting themselves up as the "measure" of all truth.

They will humbly accept that they do not understand or know anything unless God has shown them.

The opposite of this is those that believe their "logic" or "intellect" is sufficient to measure the world.

For that to be the case they would need to be omniscient and omnipresent.

They would have to be God...

This is what I observe.

There are all these Christians that claim they know the right answer. To me that looks like they are setting themselves up as the measure of truth. They have decided through their own human logic that the bible has all the answers. They have even decided that they have interpreted it so correctly that they have the right to tell me what is The Truth.

This is what I have said. I am reasonably sure that the god of the Bible does not exist. To me this is obvious when you read the history of its formation and look at the results of it being in power both in the Bible and within the middle ages. The Bible clearly supports slavery and is deplorable on women's rights. It views women as property. Those who have believed in the Bible have resisted every major advance in knowledge and social reform from astronomy to anti slavery to the women's movement. When you read the history of the abolitionist movement you will see a lot of rhetoric calling abolitionists atheists. Today you will see a lot of rhetoric calling those involved in the women's movement atheistic lesbians. There are over 40,000 Christian denominations and sects each claiming to have The Truth about the world and god.

As far as god is concerned I have said that I don't know and that its probably unknowable.

So who is claiming to know the mind of god and the "measure of the world?"

Christians or me?

It looks like the Christians are claiming to have god like powers of perception to me.

It would seem that from your posts you have decided that the Bible and the "God" represented in it are your enemy.

To clarify one point:

Genuine Christians are led by the Spirit, not their "logic".

Once genuine Christians come together, you will see that they do not always agree on every fine point, but as the Lord leads them, they will eventually converge in understanding.

So none of us have "all truth" or "all knowledge", some are blind to one aspect of the Gospel, others to another.

But we are on a path, the light that lights our path grows brighter every day.

You are in the shadows my friend and you have been persuaded that darkness is light:

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

Repent, turn, receive forgiveness.

Do not be lost because of pride.

The sins of others do not justify your own rejection of the Gospel.

Mark