Have you noticed lately....?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

We are obedient because God gives us the power to be obedient.

When we enter into that experience, we will not argue that we are "saved in our sins", because we will be experiencing true victory over them.

Mark

OTOH, how grateful I am for this promise.

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

"1 John 2:2 NKJV

Blessings!

So am I my friend.

I am grateful that the blood of the Lamb was shed for me, that I can enter back into that walk with God, when I do stumble.

He does not utterly cast me down. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If you fail, you plead the merits of Christ and are restored again, into that relationship, then once again you are accepted.

Once again you have the strength to overcome.

Mark :-)

This "in and out acceptance by God" theology is more responsible for a lack of confidence in the power of God to save to the uttermost, than any other false theology besides the belief that man unsaved will suffer in an eternally burning hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity.

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."Hebrews 7:25 KJV

"Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward."Hebrews 10:35 NKJV

Regards!

Is it not a case that when we sin, we separate from God?

Look at the history of Isreal.

It is only when they repented that they were restored.

A man who sins and does not repent, is eternally separated from God.

Your thoughts?

Mark

[cardw]

He did it by the same power we can access. The Holy Spirit.

You know I used to believe all this stuff, but it doesn't work. That's the bottom line for me. There are all kinds of theories and interpretations, but in the end there is a lot of fear, little joy, and a lot of disappointment.

The problem is when it doesn't work there is a whole slew of people ready to blame the person for it not working. Plus the definition of what it means to be sinless is pretty shaky since no one seems to be able to agree on what those standards are. And when you take on the most conservative of those standards the bar seems to always keep getting higher.

There are a number of crazy making beliefs going on at the same time. On the one hand perfect obedience is the requirement and yet no one is without sin. One result of this attempt at perfection can be seen with the group The Lord Our Righteousness Church with Wayne Bent, a self proclaimed messianic teacher who was a former Adventist minister who came to believe that he needed to lead a group away to form perfect characters. He was rather creative in making that come to pass by becoming Jesus. This allowed him to grant himself and his followers the official blessing of perfection.

Now there are a number of real advantages to living an ethical life and many ethical insights do provide a way of being happy. But waiting for god to make me perfect simply doesn't work because this god is simply not there.

[Richard Holbrook]

I'm sorry to hear that Rich.

[cardw]

I'm sorry to hear that Rich.

There's nothing to be sorry about. Once I figured out it didn't work, I was free.

[Richard Holbrook]

So why are you here?

[Neil D]

That is because many in the SDA and most of the people in this thread have not learned the concept of applied forgiveness and patience toward themselves. ...and Rich...you make the same mistake for yourself, due to your upbringing...We are a church that assigns guilt, when we should apply mercy. Someone does us wrong and that someone needs to pay [justice and applied guilt]. We forget that the only way a person really and truely grows is thru mercy, forgiveness, hope, and love.

And that is where you, and like all other SDAs, Rich, error...

Oh, and Richard Holbrook, Cardw is welcomed here...He may disagree with many of our beliefs, but he does so very respectfully and he is still a brother. Please treat him as such.

[Richard Holbrook]

Did I say he wasn't welcome?

[Richard Holbrook]

Try to overlook him Rich, I think he means well but who can tell. Now back to my question.

[Richard Holbrook]

Rich you must be doing something right, or you wouldn't be hanging out with Adventists. No?

[Dr. Rich]

Luke, I am trying to understand your position. If what I read in Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 is correct, (that anyone who practices a lie is lost) then the debate or argument over Christmas and Easter is a serious issue for many people. The same can be said for the Sabbath and the Commandments. For me, I have the same problem--and that is why I seek the truth from those in this forum and from other SDA members. Hang in there!

[Richard Holbrook]

Huh?

[Dr. Rich]

RH--were you ever at Union?

[Richard Holbrook]

Nah

[cardw]

So why are you here?

Well, since I grew up in the SDA culture, I have an interest in it.

I have come to see that much of Christianity is shame based and since I have found some success in escaping its more toxic beliefs I feel a need to point these out for others because truth does set people free.

From my research into the history of Christianity and the Bible I have found many of its claims to be rather less than factual and in my experience many of these lies have been very harmful. And historically Christianity has used violence, torture, and intimidation to promote its views and I believe that the seeds of these actions are still present in its teachings.

I also believe that violence is used because relying on the so-called Holy Spirit to change people's lives doesn't work. And since the god of the Bible provides us with many such examples of his violence, Christians are easily convinced that the same god would have them use what ever force is needed to protect "the name of god."

That's some of my reasons for being here periodically.

[Twilight]

But it does work...

Sanctification is a beautiful reality experienced by some.

Mark :-)

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

So why are you here?

From my research into the history of Christianity and the Bible I have found many of its claims to be rather less than factual and in my experience many of these lies have been very harmful. And historically Christianity has used violence, torture, and intimidation to promote its views and I believe that the seeds of these actions are still present in its teachings.

I also believe that violence is used because relying on the so-called Holy Spirit to change people's lives doesn't work.

Sounds like you're talking about Catholicism here friend. They're the only ones I know of with that history, and that's not really christianity. When have you ever seen or heard of violence in the SDA church?

[Woody]

But it does work...

Sanctification is a beautiful reality experienced by some.

Mark :-)

Sanctification is an experience that ALL Christians ARE experiencing. Some more than others. But ALL accepted by God. Not for the amount of sanctification they have but for the sanctified and risen Saviour they accept in their place.

[Richard Holbrook]

As far as it working goes, it works if you let it work. Some of us have to let the devil beat us down pretty bad before we let God in. And some never do.

[Richard Holbrook]

Hey woody,

I saw where you posted that picture.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

From my research into the history of Christianity and the Bible I have found many of its claims to be rather less than factual and in my experience many of these lies have been very harmful. And historically Christianity has used violence' date=' torture, and intimidation to promote its views and I believe that the seeds of these actions are still present in its teachings.

I also believe that violence is used because relying on the so-called Holy Spirit to change people's lives doesn't work.

[/quote']

Sounds like you're talking about Catholicism here friend. They're the only ones I know of with that history, and that's not really christianity. When have you ever seen or heard of violence in the SDA church?

Seventh Day Adventism would not exist without the Catholic Church because it was this church that formed the Bible during its violent years. The formation of the Bible included violence, torture, bribery, and political force.

Ellen White refers to the Albigensians or Cathari as a group which carried the true message that was eventually taken up by Seventh Day Adventists. They represented almost 1/2 of the French population and where wiped out by Pope Innocent II. This group of people was on the verge of the Renaissance in the 1200s.

Now Ellen White was apparently unaware of their beliefs other than some of them kept the Sabbath. They also believed in Re-incarnation, did not believe in the Trinity, believed that Jehovah, the god of the OT, was a demon, and denied the sacraments of the last supper. This idea that there was this pure version of the Christian church throughout all the ages is simply a myth.

Now the SDA church, fortunately, has a strong pacifist trend, but Waco should tell us that violence is still present in certain readings of the Bible by some SDAs.

And SDAs have done emotional and mental violence through teaching children that love is conditional and that if it weren't for Jesus, God's wrath couldn't be contained. They have also taught generations of children that they should be afraid of a terrible time of suffering just around the corner that will have suffering beyond anything we can imagine, and if their characters are not perfected God's wrath will destroy them and they won't be able to survive that time of trouble. These are just a few of these "gems."

So, to me, the evidence speaks otherwise...

[Richard Holbrook]

Branch davidians are not SDAs

[phkrause]

I've been an Adventist about 45+ years of my 60+ years and I've never been taught that. I'm not saying that I've not heard that from SDAs that didn't know better, but I've heard that from many other protestian religions. And that's not saying that SDAs haven't done some crazy things, which many others have also done.

pk

[Richard Holbrook]

pkrause, check out my recipe in the vegie cooking section. Holbrook's Jalapeno Bean Dish.

[cardw]

As far as it working goes, it works if you let it work. Some of us have to let the devil beat us down pretty bad before we let God in. And some never do.

You don't sound real sure about that.

The problem is that if it doesn't work, its my fault. If it does work then God gets the credit. The truth can never be known under those conditions.

And if it did work, you would have a lot more people interested in becoming Christians.

In my experience my behavior, my joy, and my compassion improved when I stopped being a Christian. I looked until I found ideas and world views that did work and they would be considered heretical by most Christians because they don't rely on Jesus or the Holy Spirit, whatever that means.

Nations where the population is primarily non believers are safer, less violent, have a higher standard of living and are actually more charitable than nations where the population is primarily religious.

And research indicates that Christians actually choose abortion more often as a solution than non-Christians even though they have been indoctrinated with anti-abortion views. They have higher rates of divorce.

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said:

"In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot."

Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."

I can only guess from my experience that these trends are because Christianity uses shame and fear as the primary motivator either directly or in more subtle forms of manipulation. Christianity tends to be anti-intellectual and isolationistic. These are all methods that are doomed to fail.

So, that is what I have learned and observed.