Have you noticed lately....?

[Twilight]

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom 2: 12-13

"Men fail of salvation only through their own willful refusal of the gift of life. Ellen White in GC88 p.261

"Men fail of salvation only through their own willful refusal of the gift of life. Ellen White in GC88 p.261

You will find that this statement actually disagrees with your position.

Any wilful refusal will mean that man has failed of receiving the gift of salvation.

Whereas you are presenting the idea that willful sin can be practiced as long as it is repented of later.

If that is the case then the gift of life has not been received, because the gift of life enables obedience.

So the quote does not support your position the way you think it does.

Mark

[Richard Holbrook]

As I have consistently stated .... even ignorance is 'willful'. ALL sin is 'willful'. If someone is forcing you to do something that is against your will .... that would not be sin.

Not all ignorance is willfull ignorance. What about the people who have died never knowing about the sabbath? That was not willfull ignorance, they just never had the opportunity to learn.

[Woody]

Sounds like you have your life all planned out.

It also sounds like you keep making provision for the flesh - a little item that is condemned by the Apostle Paul.

g

Hey g .... Just tryin' to be Truthful. I don't believe in this 'pie in the sky' stuff. Might as well lay it on the line.

[John317]

As I have consistently stated .... even ignorance is 'willful'. ALL sin is 'willful'. If someone is forcing you to do something that is against your will .... that would not be sin.

Quote:

"It is willful sin in them to be ignorant of the laws of health or indifferent to them, for they are looked up to as wise above other men. This is especially true of the physician, who is entrusted with human life. He is expected to indulge in no habit that will weaken the life forces. ." . . Ellen White in CH 322

Yes, we can be willfully ignorant. If we choose not to know the truth, that is willful sin. But the point is that not all sin is willful. The Bible says that clearly, and so does the Spirit of Prophecy.

Yet with the sin of Saul and its result before us, how many are pursuing a similar course. While they refuse to believe and obey some requirement of the Lord, they persevere in offering up to God their formal services of religion. There is no response of the Spirit of God to such service. No matter how zealous men may be in their observance of religious ceremonies, the Lord cannot accept them if they persist in willful violation of one of His commands. {CC 158.5}

Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1}

This Advocate pleads for sinners and the Father accepts His prayer. He turns not away the request of His beloved Son. He who so loved you as to give His own life for you will not turn you off and forsake you unless you willfully, determinedly forsake Him to serve the world and Satan. Jesus loves to have you come to Him just as you are, hopeless and helpless, and cast yourself upon His all- abundant mercy and believe that He will receive you just as you are. {HP 119.3}

[Twilight]

Then why bother to keep the sabbath? or do anything right?

Exactly.

To add to that.

Are there any standards in the Christian life we need to maintain?

---------------------

Let me also clarify something with you Redwood.

You believe that Jesus will change you into an obedient Christian when He comes and not before, is that correct?

Mark

[Richard Holbrook]

"Men fail of salvation only through their own willful refusal of the gift of life. Ellen White in GC88 p.261

You will find that this statement actually disagrees with your position.

Any wilful refusal will mean that man has failed of receiving the gift of salvation.

Whereas you are presenting the idea that willful sin can be practiced as long as it is repented of later.

If that is the case then the gift of life has not been received, because the gift of life enables obedience.

So the quote does not support your position the way you think it does.

Mark

And if it's ok to sin as long as we confess later, then the Catholics have it right.

[Woody]

Quote:

“God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. “ [5BC 1085]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

"Men fail of salvation only through their own willful refusal of the gift of life. Ellen White in GC88 p.261

You will find that this statement actually disagrees with your position.

Any wilful refusal will mean that man has failed of receiving the gift of salvation.

Whereas you are presenting the idea that willful sin can be practiced as long as it is repented of later.

If that is the case then the gift of life has not been received, because the gift of life enables obedience.

So the quote does not support your position the way you think it does.

Mark

And if it's ok to sin as long as we confess later, then the Catholics have it right.

Indeed, but you would be surprised how many Adventists actually hold to what I would call "Catholic" theology...

In error of course.

They usually focus on the conditions of salvation.

Some teach that "repentance and confession" have "merit" with God.

Others teach that sin is allowable as long as you "confess and repent at some point".

-------------------

We are confused as a people in my view because we have lost sight of one very simple truth.

That truth was the very seed of the reformation and it is:

Righteousness by Faith in the Merits of a Crucified and Risen Savior.

This is the truth we have lost sight of...

You will have the "conservative" camp teaching that "repentance and confession" have merit, as do their "works".

You will have the "liberal" camp teaching that you are saved in your sins.

Both are a fundamentally works based, or cheap grace based theology and can be found in the Catholic teachings.

Both are incorrect. :-)

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

“The law of God condemns all selfishness, all pride of heart, every species of dishonesty, every secret or open transgression.” [sT 3-30-1888]

“There is not a motive in the depths of the heart, not a secret within us, not a design that God does not fully comprehend.” [OHC 139]

[Twilight]

Quote:

“God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. “ [5BC 1085]

Then we need to learn how to enter into the new covenant promise, that gives us the gift of a new "heart", the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The covenant that produces obedience in us.

Then we have nothing to fear from such statements, but will embrace them.

Thank you for that quote, it confirms something God has been showing me.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Sorry ... but the Law condemns each of us.

[Twilight]

Quote:

“The law of God condemns all selfishness, all pride of heart, every species of dishonesty, every secret or open transgression.” [sT 3-30-1888]

“There is not a motive in the depths of the heart, not a secret within us, not a design that God does not fully comprehend.” [OHC 139]

Which basically means we need "heart conversion".

A conversion that reaches the very depths of our emotional state. (The heart is the seat of our emotion and those emotions drive our thoughts.

When we receive that promise from God, we have nothing to fear.

Mark :-)

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

“The law of God condemns all selfishness, all pride of heart, every species of dishonesty, every secret or open transgression.” [sT 3-30-1888]

“There is not a motive in the depths of the heart, not a secret within us, not a design that God does not fully comprehend.” [OHC 139]

If we give our hearts to the Lord, he cleans up those thoughts and motives. We don't have to stay the same. He changes us.

[Richard Holbrook]

Sorry ... but the Law condemns each of us.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[John317]

Sorry ... but the Law condemns each of us.

What is the next step after you realize the law condemns?

Do we shrug our shoulders and go on sinning, convinced that we can't stop, and refusing to use God's power to resist and overcome sin?

[Richard Holbrook]

He willingly forgives those who repent, but He will remove His favor from those who go on sinning, exalting self, and mingling the sacred with the common. Terrible judgments will destroy those who have misrepresented Him, saying, "The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these," when their example is misleading. {ST, October 31, 1900 par. 7}

[Woody]

Quote:

"The priests interpreted God's requirements according to their own false and narrow standard. They presumed to make nice distinctions as to the comparative guilt of various sins, passing over some lightly, and treating others of perhaps less consequence as unpardonable." DA 616

Quote:

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

"When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us." --DA, p 668

Ellen White made it clear that 'sin is sin'

"sin is sin" 3T 301

"sin is sin" CCh p.83

"sin is sin" GW92 83

"sin is sin" 3BC 1147

"sin is sin" 4T 311

"sin is sin" 4T 517

"sin is sin" TSB 247

"sin is sin" BLJ 175

"sin is sin" RH, August 1, 1893 par. 11

"sin is sin" ST, December 1, 1881

"sin is sin" SpTA12 4.1

"sin is sin" SpTB07 26

"sin is sin" 16MR 1.3

"sin is sin" 17MR 100

[Woody]

Quote:

"Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Ellen White 1893 in NL p. 27

"Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained" NL 20

" They are not to look forward, thinking that at some future time a great work is to be done for them; for the work is now complete. The believer is not called upon to make his peace with God; he never has nor ever can do this. He is to accept Christ as his peace, for with Christ is God and peace. Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. " NL 25

[Woody]

Quote:

"No one will be lost because they "sin" ... they will be lost because they refuse pardon" (Nies)

[Woody]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

If you believe that, Why do you choose to go on sinning?

[Woody]

We are without excuse. That is why we need a Saviour.

Before the court of Law .... I stand guilty as charged.

[Woody]

Quote:

"No one will be lost because they "sin" ... they will be lost because they refuse pardon" (Nies)

Exactly Redwood. Exactly.

[Richard Holbrook]

He willingly forgives those who repent, but He will remove His favor from those who go on sinning, exalting self, and mingling the sacred with the common. Terrible judgments will destroy those who have misrepresented Him, saying, "The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these," when their example is misleading. {ST, October 31, 1900 par. 7}

[Woody]

At what point do we reach your "Unpardonable Sin" condition where our petitions to Jesus are no longer accepted?