Have you noticed lately....?

[Tom Wetmore]

TU

I have often thought that it is very unfair of God if it is true that the last generation is going be perfect before Jesus comes. How unfair to be held to a higher standard to be saved just because they happen to have survived until Jesus comes. Even those who advocate this nonsense, will conceded the thief on the cross, with no opportunity left for sanctifying character improvement, much less perfection, was eternally secure and saved. And they readily agree that nobody but Jesus has yet achieved the perfection to which they strive, but that many of prior generations will nonetheless be saved without being held to the high standard of the final generation.

Based on that comparison, I might have had a chance to be saved had I lived even a century ago, when I didn't have to achieve perfection to be saved. And what if I struggle and strive for perfection believing Jesus will return very soon, but die anyway before he does return. If I had only known I was going to die too soon, I could have relaxed a bit...

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

And what if I struggle and strive for perfection believing Jesus will return very soon, but die anyway before he does return. If I had only known I was going to die too soon, I could have relaxed a bit...

No you couldn't you would have died in your sins. God knows the heart.

I take it you don't believe Ellen White.

[Musicman1228]

The Parable of the Drowning Swimmer and the Lifeguard~

That metaphor/parable is actually pretty good, Tom, thanks for the great idea. I still have a couple of questions about your version. Please tell me if I have misunderstood the principle concept you are trying to get across.

What I heard you say is that the goal of salvation is the same for everyone, it is just the method of how that is accomplished that is in question. You defined salvation using the metaphor of a drowning man and a lifeguard, where the drowning man will be saved if he lets the lifeguard do all the work and carry him to shore. Having been a NAUI certified dive instructor and also being Red Cross certified in first aid (a teaching requirement) I understand the concept and necessity of having the person you need to rescue be submissive and not struggle. If you get to the person that you are going to save and they are struggling you must do what you must to get them to quit, including knocking them out.

I agree with you that everyone that understands the life and death struggle we are in longs for salvation. But it is at this point where I see your choice of metaphor breaking down, and this goes directly to method.

The symbols of this Parable: water=the world of sin, Lifeguard=Jesus the savior, drowning swimmer=us, drowning swimmer swimming toward shore=works, storm=trials and tribulation, Lifeguard swimming toward shore=grace, shore=heaven and righteousness.

The parable for our purposes takes into consideration that Jesus has paid the penalty for the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

Parable #1 - The Lifeguard can only save someone that gives up and lets Him do all the swimming; that not swimming is a requirement for getting to shore during the storm. The Lifeguard swims over to the drowning person and asks him if he knows how to swim. The person answers “Only a little”. The drowning swimmer is panicking in the storm, gulping water, and fighting just to stay above water. The Lifeguard tells him he must give up trying to swim, that it is OK to not know how to swim and it is OK to sink under water because it is impossible not to (no one can swim that well by themselves so you are better off not trying), that the storm is too powerful for the swimmer and don't worry, the Lifeguard will take care of everything for him. The swimmer sinks because of the water he has taken into his lungs and stomach and starts to drown. Then the Lifeguard pulls the swimmer back up to the surface but only after he has become unconscious, and finally swims to shore with him. The Lifeguard wakes up the now rescued swimmer and welcomes him ashore even though his stomach and lungs are still full of water. The Lifeguard says that is OK because the Lifeguard overcame the water and the storm for the swimmer so it doesn't matter that there is water still in him.

On the other hand it is my own understanding that to save the drowning man the Lifeguard will do something entirely different. My picture is based on texts in which Jesus speaks of sanctification, truth, abiding in His words and overcoming.

So in one version Jesus does the rescuing by doing all the work for the person being rescued.

Parable #2 - The Lifeguard swims to the drowning man and asks him if he wants help to make it to shore. The Lifeguard supports the drowning swimmer as he makes this decision. If the man says yes (there is always a choice) the Lifeguard takes hold of the swimmer, calms him down and begins to teach him the truth about the water, that just because he is in the water does not mean that he has to drown in the storm. The Lifeguard instructs the swimmer in how expel the water from his lungs and stomach, that he took in during the storm, so he can float and keep his head above water. The Lifeguard shows the swimmer how to swim in the water by the example of how the Lifeguard did it. The Lifeguard turns the drowning frightened swimmer into a strong, confident swimmer by teaching him the truth about the water and who sent the storm, and showing him how it is possible to get out of the water and onto dry land. The Lifeguard shows the swimmer how He overcame the water, and that the swimmer can overcome the water also; that the reward for overcoming the water and storm is that the swimmer will get to sit on the beach with the Lifeguard for eternity when they get to shore. Together they swim toward shore, with the swimmer getting stronger every day, knowing that he will eventually reach shore by continually keeping his eyes on the Lifeguard. The overcoming of the water and storm by the swimmer is made possible because the Lifeguard has already overcome the water and storm.

These are two distinctly different applications of the same parable that I have named The Drowning Swimmer and the Lifeguard (If I didn't get your side of the metaphor correct then let me know).

The question is begged, which one of these applications is right? Parable #1 could have been written by Paul, and is what most Christians believe to be true about how salvation works. Parable #2 could have been written by Jesus Christ because this is exactly what He taught to His own disciples while He was here on earth.

The critical problem is that if you are relying on #1 for your salvation and #2 is the way things really work then you really will drown in the storm and be lost. If you rely on #2 for your salvation and #2 is actually true then you are still saved because of grace. If you investigate the principles behind both metaphors/parables you will find that Jesus indeed did supply parable #2 as the way things actually work.

[Richard Holbrook]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:25-27

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[Richard Holbrook]

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves,....to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 3:21

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

It doesn't sound like Jesus overcame for us, but overcame so that we could overcome as He overcame. In other words, we must overcome the same way Jesus did, and He set the example for us to emulate. The reward for overcoming is the right to sit on the throne of God beside the Son of God.

[Richard Holbrook]

we must overcome the same way Jesus did

That's right, and how did Jesus overcome?

[wayfinder]

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Jesus overcame by knowing the truth. The testimony of Jesus is the truth. The testimony of the saints is the truth, they overcome by learning the truth and their testimony is the truth.

Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

John 8:31,32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

[Richard Holbrook]

Just knowing the truth is not overcoming. Satan knows the truth.

[Richard Holbrook]

How did Jesus overcome?

[Richard Holbrook]

The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset.{ST, April 10, 1893 par. 3}

Abundant provision has been made that finite, fallen man may so connect with God that, through the same Source by which Christ overcame in His human nature, he may stand firmly against every temptation, as did Christ. {3SM 130.1}

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

[wayfinder]

I agree, the obedience of Christ to His Father is what is required of us therefore in order to overcome as Christ overcame we must have the same obedience to the Father. Christ did not do it for us, He did it to give us an example so we could emulate Him.

[Richard Holbrook]

He did it by the same power we can access. The Holy Spirit.

[wayfinder]

The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth is a teacher just like Christ. The Holy Spirit gives the same testimony as Christ and we are duty bound to learn the truth from the Spirit of Truth who leads us into all truth.

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, we are told that the devil tempted Him by quoting scripture. Jesus resisted and overcame these temptations by quoting scripture to expose the misuse by the devil. It is the Spirit of Truth that speaks to us through the words of the Father and the Son recorded and preserved for us by the power of God.

[Richard Holbrook]

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[Richard Holbrook]

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[Ted Oplinger]

TU

I have often thought that it is very unfair of God if it is true that the last generation is going be perfect before Jesus comes. How unfair to be held to a higher standard to be saved just because they happen to have survived until Jesus comes. Even those who advocate this nonsense, will conceded the thief on the cross, with no opportunity left for sanctifying character improvement, much less perfection, was eternally secure and saved. And they readily agree that nobody but Jesus has yet achieved the perfection to which they strive, but that many of prior generations will nonetheless be saved without being held to the high standard of the final generation.

Based on that comparison, I might have had a chance to be saved had I lived even a century ago, when I didn't have to achieve perfection to be saved. And what if I struggle and strive for perfection believing Jesus will return very soon, but die anyway before he does return. If I had only known I was going to die too soon, I could have relaxed a bit...

A question, Tom...

Are they being held to a higher standard? Or are they voluntarily simply to take what has always been available and make it a reality?

If the former, I might have to agree with your assessment. The latter, though, is an invitation loaded with wonderful possibilities!

I do believe when the Scriptures tells us the Father has given us all things in Christ, that means "all things". I tend to believe that should necessarily even include a walk just like Christ's here on earth.

What prevents it? Our lack of faith, and our lack of willingness - it would not be a "normal" life as known by people.

We are too afraid, and a little too scared, to really attempt to do what currently we deem impossible - but all things are possible with God...."all things". Yet, today, it is more fashionable to focus on how we are ever sinners, rather than how we can ever have Christ's very righteousness. The semantics get argued, as well noted above...

I figure the last generation stakes a claim on that "higher standard" because they nothing left to lose - the world won't allow them to live a "normal" life - no buying, no selling, and a death threat for simply daring to worship the True and Living God, rather than the image of the Beast.

Thoughts?

[Ted Oplinger]

How did Jesus overcome?

Matthew 4:4.

John 14:10

John 14:12 says we can do the same.

Food for thought...

[Richard Holbrook]

And, Why would God ask us to do something, and then refuse to give us the power to do it.

[Richard Holbrook]

Matthew 4:4.

John 14:10

John 14:12 says we can do the same.

EXCELLENT

[Ted Oplinger]

Thought you might think so... :smile:

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

we must overcome the same way Jesus did

That's right, and how did Jesus overcome?

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." John 5:30 NIV

"Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things."John 8:28 NKJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

...there is a fundamental difference between being saved from your sins and being saved in your sins...

This "distinction" is a straw man of a label slapped on the forehead of those who may disagree about what salvation is all about. It is one of the least useful and most misleading distinctions in this great debate over righteousness by faith. Responding to the accusation that "you must believe you are saved in your sins" is like trying to successfully answer the question, "So when did you stop beating your wife?"

Whatever you mean and believe by the phrase "being saved from your sins" does not mean that anyone differing from your view of salvation automatically must believe only one other alternative that one must believe they are saved in their sins. This straw man argument frames the whole debate absurdly wrong.

Let's get this straight. Both sides of this debate believe that the whole idea and point of salvation is to save us from sin, all sin, the world of sin, all sinfulness, our own sins, our own sinful nature, the root and consequences of sin - all of it completely without a single subatomic particle left to infect humanity and this world ever again.

The issue is over how and when this is accomplished both universally and in our own life. And the whole eradication of sin has simply not been fully accomplished and will not be until the earth is recreated anew. We are forced to wait until sometime in the future for that which is not yet fully accomplished. That is why it is called righteousness by faith. But that does not mean that our assurance of salvation is any less sure. Jesus sealed that deal when he walked out of the tomb on his own two feet. It just calls out for the patience of the saints. And trust in the One who makes it sure. "Believe on the Lord Jesus the Savior/Messiah/Christ and you will be (future tense) saved."

Here is the analogy - A drowning man is saved, rescued, from that which is killing him, the water, at the moment the Lifeguard grabs hold of him and starts dragging him to shore. Is he safe yet? Yes and no. He is still in the water, but he is in good hands. It is still 200 yards to the beach. The waves are huge and threaten to rip him out of the firm grip of the Lifeguard. But the Lifeguard shouts in his ear over the raging sea, "I will not let you go and I have never lost anyone that I have in my hands. Just relax and stop struggling. Let me do all the work now and I will see that you get to the other side safely." But they are still in the water. That man is saved from the water while still in the water. But he has been assured by the Lifeguard that he will make it safely home. We aren't home yet. We are still in the water but saved from it.

If you are saved "in" your sins, then why did Jesus need to die?

This idea that we cannot gain total victory over sin through the merits of Christ, is a lie of the enemy.

:-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Great Post Tom. Let me just add something written by an SDA pastor that I think is good on this very topic. Please excuse the length. Here is the link to his web site. http://prophecywatch.biz/wst_page8.html

I've heard him speak and he is excellent:

We are saved from our sins and not in them?

Pastor Tom Hughes

As an Adventist I have often heard ministers say we are “Saved FROM our sins, not IN our sins”. This has often inspired more confusion and needless guilt than it has motivated people to live a more sanctified life. Those who say this often are perfectionists who believe they can reach a state of sinless perfection before Jesus comes through character development. If they mean our sins are “taken away” in the sense that Jesus died for them, and through justification we no longer have “our sins”, then I say AMEN! If they are saying we should not cherish sin and practice iniquity I say Amen. However if they mean God removes all sinning from sinners before the Second Coming, I have to object to this distortion. The Bible teaches that we have sin, and that we are sinful until Jesus comes. All have sinned, there is none good but God and Paul had not yet arrived when he died. Paul said that nothing good dwelled in him and that he was a wretched sinner. (“Oh wretched man that I AM” not was[ii]) If the Bible admonishes us not to say we have no sin,[iii] then we must therefore be saved in sin. Romans 5: 8 reads: “But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

This ground has already been taken and staked out in the 27 Fundamentals of our faith, “People can never claim that perfection independently…Apart from Christ human beings cannot obtain righteousness” “Some incorrectly believe the ultimate perfection that glorification will bring is already available to humans…Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent” “Neither Christlike character traits nor faultless behavior is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteousness comes from one righteous Man, Jesus, and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ’s gift of righteousness; we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous (Rom. 3:10); independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. (Isa. 64:6; see also Dan 9:7, 11, 20; 1 Cor. 1: 30)[iv] As Paul and our church has stated, we ARE great sinners, but Jesus is a great Savior!

Ellen White writes that the noblest and gentlest among men are but a faint reflection of Christ’s character[v], and that only the perfect flawless character of Christ is sufficient to merit salvation. She also writes categorically that “No one is perfect but Jesus”. [vi] So for ministers to suggest we have to equal Christ’s accomplishments by producing a flawless character before Jesus steps out of the sanctuary is totally false.

Let’s review some of the statements that make is clear we are still sinners, with a sinful nature, in need of forgiveness and grace.

“The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. SM, 1:344, 345.

Those whose hearts have been moved by the convicting Spirit of God see that there is nothing good in themselves. They see that all they have ever done is mingled with self and sin. Like the poor publican, they stand afar off, not daring to lift up so much as their eyes to heaven, and cry, "God, be merciful to me the sinner." Luke 18:13, R.V., margin. And they are blessed. {MB 7, 8}

Jesus loves to have us come to Him, just as we are--sinful, helpless, dependent. We can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to commend ourselves to divine favor. We must not trust at all to ourselves or to our good works; but when as erring, sinful beings we come to Christ, we may find rest in His love. FW 38

Neither Joseph, Daniel, nor any of the apostles claimed to be without sin. Men who have … acknowledged themselves to be sinners, unworthy of His great favors. They have felt their weakness and, sorrowful for their sins, have tried to copy the pattern Jesus Christ. {FW 43}

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. SC 64

The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. … A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power.” SC 64, 65

Men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. AA 561

Apart from Christ we have no merit, no righteousness. Our sinfulness, our weakness, our human imperfection make it impossible that we should appear before God unless we are clothed in Christ's spotless righteousness.” God’s Amazing Grace p.183

God declares, "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom 3:10). All have the same sinful nature. All are liable to make mistakes. No one is perfect. The Lord Jesus died for the erring that they might be forgiven. It is not our work to condemn. Christ did not come to condemn, but to save.” In Heavenly Places p. 292

From these statements we can see that Ellen White agreed with the Apostle Paul in acknowledging that we have a sinful nature and that we must never consider ourselves to have arrived at a point of sinlessness. She makes it crystal clear in this statement: “So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.” AA 560

So until Jesus comes, we will need God’s saving grace while we are “IN” sin and while he is helping us to separate from our sinfulness through the process of sanctification. Until we receive our new nature, we must consider ourselves sinners, being saved by grace, and transformed into his image. That total transformation will come, but not as long as Satan reigns and we have self to subdue! Some paint a picture of sinners removing sin from their experience until they reach a perfection and sinlessness equal to Christ’s character in this life and of removing sin to the point of not sinning anymore. However, Ellen White paints a picture of the believer’s experience that is entirely different from this. She paints a picture of believers who find that the closer they get to Jesus, the more they see their own faults and imperfection and actually seem to get worse![vii] But according to the false teachers, you will see your perfection grow until you reach total Christlikeness when Jesus steps out of the Sanctuary. This is nothing short of blasphemy. Ellen White puts clarifies the point this way:

“I ask, How can I present this matter as it is? The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. If you would gather together everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason. {FW 24.1}

I’m happy Jesus is able to save us in, and forever from sin in all its forms! Christ is able to subdue all things unto himself! Let us proclaim with the angels in the very throne room of God; Praise to You, oh Lamb of God because “You alone are worthy”! Rev. 15: 4

1 JN 1: 8; LK 18: 19; Isaiah 64: 6; Rom. 3: 0-12; 20-23; PS 14; Philippians 3: 3, 8-9

[ii] Romans 7: 18, 24

[iii] 1 John 1: 8

[iv] 27 Fundamentals of the Faith pp. 127-131

[v] MB 49

[vi] TIMKH 136

[vii] SC 64, 65

It would not matter if he was the pope, it wouldn't make him "right"...

If Adventists are saved "in our sins", why are we telling the world to keep the Sabbath?

We would be the biggest bunch of hypocrites in the world.

Because if we are saved in our sins, then the Sabbath is irrelevant, as are all of the other commandments.

We can just nod and say "Jesus will give me an obedient heart when He comes".

That was NOT the new covenant promise.

If someone can show me anywhere in the bible that that claim is made, then I would be very interested.

Mark

[Twilight]

The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset.{ST, April 10, 1893 par. 3}

Abundant provision has been made that finite, fallen man may so connect with God that, through the same Source by which Christ overcame in His human nature, he may stand firmly against every temptation, as did Christ. {3SM 130.1}

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We gain obedience through the merits of Christ sacrifice.

As we present the blood of that sacrifice in faith, the Holy Spirit is given to us.

Righteousness is given and then a constant giving of that, results in our obedience.

We are obedient because God gives us the power to be obedient.

When we enter into that experience, we will not argue that we are "saved in our sins", because we will be experiencing true victory over them.

Mark