cardw Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw I have been careful to not state that every SDA is teaching that, but I am 50 and I was on the tail end of the more cultic indoctrinational culture. And its true that many other Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and non denominational groups practice many of the same shame technics to hold their members in check. I personally believe that we need to grow out of these ideas as a human race, no matter what religious or non-religious mantel they come under. It just happens that currently religious organizations are the most powerful voices teaching these things. [/quote'] So what is your "basis" for measuring the world my friend? Is it your own "logic"? If it is, then you are worshipping at a false idol my friend... Rejecting "God" because of your own "logic" is doing exactly the same thing the enemy did... Putting yourself in the place of God. You talk like there is some other option than our own perception. Unless you have some superhuman ability that I don't you are using your own "logic" to make the determination that what you believe is true. You may act under the authority of how you interpret the Bible, but it was your own logic that decided that this is what you wanted to do. It is also your won logic that you use to understand what YOU believe the Bible is trying to say. To use your language you could be guilty of making an idol of the bible or your own ability to think. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 I know for a fact it works. It works for me. When it wasn't working I knew it wasn't God's fault. I have never blamed God for my lack of willingness to let him make some changes. There is no blame that I could lay on God for my own desire to live a certain way. Walking with God is a one day at a time thing, and the slightest bit of willingness will open the door. If you don't have any, you can ask for that, and he will give it. When I was a believer I had tons of willingness. The reason it doesn't work is because that god is not there. Since I stopped trying to be perfect and stopped judging every little thing I did or didn't do, life is much more full of joy, peace, compassion, and interest. This idea that we are terrible sinful beings simply uses shame to shut people down. When I make a mistake its my fault. When I am successful its my success. I can see that very clearly. I am certainly grateful to those sources of information that allow me to learn how to do things better, but it is still me who chooses to do things differently and it is me who acts on that information, because if I didn't act nothing would change. When I see Christians say its all Jesus when complemented for something, I think, "Well you must have had something to do with it." Success doesn't have to be about pride, sometimes its just a fact. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Neil D Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Rich, you may have dipped your spirit into that pool called "forgiveness and mercy".... ....Of course, you can't recognised Who is forgiving you, but that's ok...you've moved on...in spirit... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Dr. Rich Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Great posts Rich! I must agree with you--we have our own choices to make and we have to live by our choice. The reason why people lose 'faith' in God is because they have been told all of their lives to have faith and then when something happens and God didn't help, they blame God when they should be looking at the real problem. As for me, I KNOW God is there, (I don't have to have faith), but I choose to obey what Jesus taught regardless of what happens to me. Matthew 25:14-30 makes it clear that God is not with anyone right now, thereby helping them to make a choice. He is gone my friend! He left us with a working manual (the words of Jesus) and told us we must make a choice. If want life, then repent and overcome sin--then the Holy Spirit will dwell in you and you then can become a spiritually born again being--on par with Jesus Christ. No, I did not discount prayer--for that is vital for our communication with God thru the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not all over the place and does NOT talk to people like they want us to believe (EGW-Paul) He is where He said He would be--in heaven and that certainaly is not here on this earth! So when people say they hear God and want God to make choices for them, what they actually are doing is setting themselves up for Satan to enter the picture and lead them astray. I can't think of an easier target for Satan--can you? It's no wonder why kids will believe that they are doing the will of God by blowing themselves up and killing lots of people! Ok, I've said enough, but I'm sure I am going to hear from others how horrible I am for even thinking such a thing. Quote
Richard Holbrook Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Ok, I've said enough, At least one part of what you said was right. Quote
Woody Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Quote: Ok, I've said enough, but I'm sure I am going to hear from others how horrible I am for even thinking such a thing. Soon we will find out just how 'horrible' you are ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 But .... I hope not. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Richard Holbrook Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 If we stone him now, maybe the lord will have mercy on him. Quote
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Rich, you may have dipped your spirit into that pool called "forgiveness and mercy".... ....Of course, you can't recognised Who is forgiving you, but that's ok...you've moved on...in spirit... I appreciate the sentiment, but I have stepped back farther. In my world view there is no god condemning me in the first place. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Neil D Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Neil D Rich, you may have dipped your spirit into that pool called "forgiveness and mercy".... ....Of course, you can't recognised Who is forgiving you, but that's ok...you've moved on...in spirit... I appreciate the sentiment, but I have stepped back farther. In my world view there is no god condemning me in the first place. There you go again...slipping back into the same ol' habits...Don't you know, that for the honest of heart, there is no condemnation? God is not out to 'get' you...That condemnation doesn't come from God....Don't you remember? Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost? He's finding you.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 No. He did not come to the world to condemn. That would be correct. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Quote: As for me, I KNOW God is there, (I don't have to have faith), but I choose to obey what Jesus taught regardless of what happens to me. Well this doesn't make sense to me since... 1) It's very difficult to figure out exactly what Jesus wants us to do and this is evidenced by the myriad of opinions of what exactly this is. 2) And I have found it foolish to not consider what might happen to me as an influence on my choices. Quote: He left us with a working manual (the words of Jesus) and told us we must make a choice. If proof of god's interaction with us is limited to a book that's pretty poor evidence. I do appreciate many of Jesus' sayings, but he has a number of problematic ones as well like hating your family so that you can follow him. If Jesus was a Buddhist this could be made to make sense, but I doubt that few would understand it and if they did, this would radically change how we understand Jesus. All of this would be a lot of extra mental gymnastics for me and it was. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw I appreciate the sentiment, but I have stepped back farther. In my world view there is no god condemning me in the first place. [/quote'] There you go again...slipping back into the same ol' habits...Don't you know, that for the honest of heart, there is no condemnation? God is not out to 'get' you...That condemnation doesn't come from God....Don't you remember? Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost? He's finding you.... Well, if god is not condemning me, why do I need his forgiveness? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 No. He did not come to the world to condemn. That would be correct. I put the same question to you... If god is not condemning me, why do I need his forgiveness? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Woody Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The Law condemns you. Jesus came to save you from the Law. You need HIS forgiveness because HE answered the curse of the Law. He is the only way to Salvation otherwise the law condemns you to Death. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Richard Holbrook Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Good question. How will the liberals answer that? The fact is you are condemned. But you can chage that by coming to Jesus just like you are. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Quote
Members phkrause Posted August 5, 2009 Members Posted August 5, 2009 I like that answer Redwood, straight and to the point. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The Law condemns you. Jesus came to save you from the Law. You need HIS forgiveness because HE answered the curse of the Law. He is the only way to Salvation otherwise the law condemns you. The Law is a human invention to help form empires. And one cannot ask forgiveness from something that isn't living in the first place. This also makes the Law greater than Jesus since even Jesus has to follow its limitations. Most of this is simply artificial since there is no way to describe everything within a law. Because, Law is formed from human ideas and with human technology. Placing myself under a law is to place myself under something much less than human. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Members phkrause Posted August 5, 2009 Members Posted August 5, 2009 No God gave us the law, in the form of the Ten Commandments. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Neil D Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Neil D Well, if god is not condemning me, why do I need his forgiveness? Because when God forgives, He heals....He heals the soul that is broken.... The stuff that everyone else is talking about is from the "SDA book of condemnation"...[no, there isnt one that exists, but you would think that it does from all the pat answers they give you.] Look, Jesus is not out to condemn you, and neither am I going to give you that stuff about Law and forgiveness...Heck, you're a former SDA. You know that inside and out...what you lack is a real experience with God...and God starts out with healing thru forgiveness...Like all broken humanity, we all need healing.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators John317 Posted August 5, 2009 Moderators Posted August 5, 2009 In my world view there is no god condemning me in the first place. John 3: 16-18: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Richard Holbrook Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 The next time you feel like GOD can't use you, just remember.... Noah was a drunk Abraham was too old Isaac was a daydreamer Jacob was a liar Leah was ugly Joseph was abused Moses had a stuttering problem Gideon was afraid Samson had long hair and was a womanizer Rahab was a prostitute Jeremiah and Timothy were too young David had an affair and was a murderer Elijah was suicidal Isaiah preached naked Jonah ran from God Naomi was a widow Job went bankrupt Peter denied Christ (3 times!) The Disciples fell asleep while praying Martha worried about everything Mary Magdalene was the Samaritan woman who was divorced, more than once... Zaccheus was too small Paul was too religious Timothy had an ulcer... AND Lazarus was dead! Now! No more excuses! God can use you to your full potential. Besides, you aren't the message, you are just the messenger. Quote
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 No God gave us the law, in the form of the Ten Commandments. If god created the law then it is god who condemns us. No amount of semantic technicality can avoid this. God cannot both condemn and forgive and not condemn at the same time. That's classic double think. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Dr. Rich Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 pkrause wrote: "No God gave us the law, in the form of the Ten Commandments." Hmmm??? Then tell me, just what law did Adam break since the Ten Commandments had not been given until the time of Moses? Quote
cardw Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Quote: Look, Jesus is not out to condemn you, and neither am I going to give you that stuff about Law and forgiveness...Heck, you're a former SDA. You know that inside and out...what you lack is a real experience with God...and God starts out with healing thru forgiveness...Like all broken humanity, we all need healing.... I have experience, but I don't think its the god of the Bible. It's something else and it doesn't seem to care if you believe in Jesus or not, whether you are a Christian or not, or any other label, doctrine, or whatever. In fact, at least in my experience, all that other stuff gets in the way. And yet that other stuff seems to be very important to a lot of people and I have yet to see it work. What I observe is fear for the most part. And it doesn't take long to get to the fear part. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
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