Twilight Posted August 18, 2009 Author Posted August 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook Has anybody seen Redwood? I thought I was Redwood? teehe Anyway, to me here's the complete truth wrapped up in two statements: Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. I think I will wait for Redwoods answer. :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Not for salvation. Salvation was a done deal at the cross. Having said that .... sanctification is something that ALL have. It is impossible not to have it. If you doubt this ... name one person who has not received sanctification. Could you explain? Can you name one person who does not have sanctification? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Just* Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Could you explain? Can you name one person who does not have sanctification? Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:18Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24 the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified Heb 10:29 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8 1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Quote
Twilight Posted August 19, 2009 Author Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Could you explain? Can you name one person who does not have sanctification? Yes, anyone who has not submitted to God... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Quote: Yes, anyone who has not submitted to God... I would propose that even atheists have some good in them. And ALL good is from God. Therefore .... even the atheist is going through a form of sanctification although he probably does not even recognize it at this point. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 We must not confuse the work of sanctification with the impressions that the Spirit of God makes upon the hearts of all men. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted August 19, 2009 Moderators Posted August 19, 2009 Quote: Yes, anyone who has not submitted to God... I would propose that even atheists have some good in them. And ALL good is from God. Therefore .... even the atheist is going through a form of sanctification although he probably does not even recognize it at this point. There's a difference between the Holy Spirit's work in convicting us of our sins and making His home in us. The Holy Spirit doesn't "abide" in everyone. He abides in believers who want Him in their lives. He won't force His way in. That's what Rev. 3: 20 is all about. He can't come into a life that is already occupied by Christ's enemy. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight Posted August 19, 2009 Author Posted August 19, 2009 We must not confuse the work of sanctification with the impressions that the Spirit of God makes upon the hearts of all men. sky Amen. The work of Sanctification is the direct result of the work of Holy Spirit on the mind, heart and soul. This comes through conscious co-operation with God for the Christian. We know that some live up to the light they have, but that does not mean everyone is being sanctified. Only those that recognise and respond to the voice of the Spirit. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 We must not confuse the work of sanctification with the impressions that the Spirit of God makes upon the hearts of all men. sky Amen. The work of Sanctification is the direct result of the work of Holy Spirit on the mind, heart and soul. This comes through conscious co-operation with God for the Christian. We know that some live up to the light they have, but that does not mean everyone is being sanctified. Only those that recognise and respond to the voice of the Spirit. Mark :-) I'll go along with that. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: Yes, anyone who has not submitted to God... I would propose that even atheists have some good in them. And ALL good is from God. Therefore .... even the atheist is going through a form of sanctification although he probably does not even recognize it at this point. There's a difference between the Holy Spirit's work in convicting us of our sins and making His home in us. The Holy Spirit doesn't "abide" in everyone. He abides in believers who want Him in their lives. He won't force His way in. That's what Rev. 3: 20 is all about. He can't come into a life that is already occupied by Christ's enemy. You know John, I know exactly what you are saying. We have heard this all our adventist lives. I am also aware of those statements in the Testimonies that if not understood in their proper context can be made to mean that Christ is standing outside and knocking at the door for entrance as though sinners could be alive without Christ. But the Bible clearly says that "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. In Christ we live, not apart from Him. Just think, "You cannot have a thought without Christ." F.W.73. It is very difficult for us to accept this simple truth simply because we have been taught from adventist infancy that Christ cannot be where sin is and yet in the inspired writings we read, "Where sin abounds there the grace of God much more abounds." Rom.5:20. Thus we read, "Wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, 113. What is He doing there? He is bearing it. He is bearing the curse wherever the curse is found, and where is it not found? If that were not true there would be no life anywhere. This is the larger picture of the cross of Christ for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. This is a deep truth that we all need to acknowledge because it is the truth, because God says it. It is by the Spirit of Christ that all men live and not only all men but all created beings. "All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301. The fact that all men live by the life of Christ does not make them any more Christians than Satan is. Does Satan and his angels have the principle of life built within themselves? do they live and act on their own powers? Can they live apart from Christ? If they could live apart from Christ then they would not have to answer to Him for they would be self-existent but we know that God alone is self-existent. In Christ all created beings, (and that includes Satan and his evil angels and the whole sinful human race) live and move and have their being. Christ bears the curse in Satan and his evil angels just as He bears the curse in every man. Were it not for that Lucifer himself would be crushed immediately as well as every evil angel or sinful man. "It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment." Education, p.198. This is true of all created beings be they devils or holy beings. This is a stupendous truth. Thus we are made to appreciate the goodness of the Lord, His condescension, His longsuffering. He bears the whole world with all its awful weight of sin and sorry. He bears all things as the Scriptures teach. So although He is the life of every man He is not dwelling by faith in the heart of every man. Very few men and women, even among adventists who profess to know so much, live in daily conscious recognition that Christ is their life, that it is Him by His Spirit who is causing the heart to beat, breath to follow breath, and that it is by His Spirit, His power, that every nerve and muscle is kept in order and activity. In fact the entire being is under His supervision. All created beings live by the will and power of an ever-present God through Christ by the Spirit! If any of you have difficulty believing this, please take the book Ministry of Healing and read the top paragraph on page 417. In the book Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.294, we read there that "the entire being is under the supervision of God." It is by the Holy Spirit that God is working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will, working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness. For "Above, beneath, beyond, abides infinite Love working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness." Education, p.134. May God open our eyes that we may see the invisible, the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all is my prayer for all of us. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed that we may discern that the earth is filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men! See Education, p.120, last paragraph. But most importantly, may the Lord impress our minds with the most precious truth that the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf so that Christ may dwell in the heart by faith and that we may be filled with all the fullness of God as this is the only way we can overcome as He overcame. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 We must not confuse the work of sanctification with the impressions that the Spirit of God makes upon the hearts of all men. sky Amen. The work of Sanctification is the direct result of the work of Holy Spirit on the mind, heart and soul. This comes through conscious co-operation with God for the Christian. We know that some live up to the light they have, but that does not mean everyone is being sanctified. Only those that recognise and respond to the voice of the Spirit. Mark :-) I believe that the Holy Spirit works with even the one who is resisting and has not accepted the Holy Spirit in their life. Just my 2 cents worth. You may disagree. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Quote: We have heard this all our adventist lives. Perhaps you could fill us in Sky. Are you a member of any Seventh day Adventist Church currently? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36. If the Spirit is at last withdrawn from the sinner, that implies that He was there before His withdrawing Himself. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted August 19, 2009 Moderators Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 There's a difference between the Holy Spirit's work in convicting us of our sins and making His home in us. The Holy Spirit doesn't "abide" in everyone. He abides in believers who want Him in their lives. He won't force His way in. That's what Rev. 3: 20 is all about. He can't come into a life that is already occupied by Christ's enemy. [/quote'] You know Jonh, I know exactly what you are saying. We have heard this all our adventist lives. I am also aware of those statements in the Testimonies that if not understood in their proper context can be made to mean that Christ is standing outside and knocking at the door for entrance as though sinners could be alive without Christ. But the Bible clearly says that "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. In Christ we live, not apart from Him. Just think, "You cannot have a thought without Christ." F.W.73. It is very difficult for us to accept this simple truth simply because we have been taught from adventist infancy that Christ cannot be where sin is and yet in the inspired writings we read, "Wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, 113. What is He doing where sin is? He is bearing it. He is bearing the curse wherever the curse is found, and where is it not found? If that were not true there would be life anywhere. This is the larger picture of the cross of Christ for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. This is a deep truth that we all need to acknowledge because it is the truth, because God says it. It is by the Spirit of Christ that all men live and not only all men but all created beings. "All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301. There's a difference between God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) making their home with us and abiding in us, and the Holy Spirit working on our hearts. God attempts to communicate with all people, including Hitler. But God was not in Hitler in the sense that Jesus speaks of in John 14: 17, 23. God does not abide in the body and mind of the person who is possessed by demons. For instance, when the NT says that Satan entered into Judas, we are not to believe that both God and Satan were in Judas at the same time. We have to decide who we want to be in us-- whether God or Satan, because we can't have both abiding in us. Check out Matt. 12: 43-45. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 John, i think that in my previous post I have carefully made the distinction between Christ being the life of every man, of every created being, and Him abiding in the heart by faith. In the case of devil possession, it makes no difference: "Christ feels the woes of every sufferer. When evil spirits rend a human frame, Christ feels the curse. when fever is burning up the life current, He feels the agony." Desire of Ages, 823, last parg. He feels the curse because He is there! This is the knowledge of God John. We have more to unlearn than to learn. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted August 19, 2009 Moderators Posted August 19, 2009 I believe that the Holy Spirit works with even the one who is resisting and has not accepted the Holy Spirit in their life. Yes, of course. He works with all people until the individual has completely rejected God, and only the Holy Spirit knows when that point is reached. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Amen. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 "Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of it in relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that from its very inception sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God, subjugation by their enemies, cruetly, and death, it is said 'His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.' 'In all their affliction He was afflicted and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.'" Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. "Our world is a vast lazar house, a scene of misery that we dare not allow even our thoughts to dwell upon. Did we realize it as it is, the burden would be too terrible. Yet God feels it all." Education, pp.263,264. He feels it all simply because "In Him all things hold together." "In Him we live and move and have our being." Col.1:17; Acts 17:28. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 I believe that the Holy Spirit works with even the one who is resisting and has not accepted the Holy Spirit in their life. Works with, pleads with, yes. But that is not sanctification. Quote
Twilight Posted August 19, 2009 Author Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Amen. The work of Sanctification is the direct result of the work of Holy Spirit on the mind' date=' heart and soul. This comes through conscious co-operation with God for the Christian. We know that some live up to the light they have, but that does not mean everyone is being sanctified. Only those that recognise and respond to the voice of the Spirit. Mark :-) [/quote'] I believe that the Holy Spirit works with even the one who is resisting and has not accepted the Holy Spirit in their life. Just my 2 cents worth. You may disagree. Yes, but are you saying they are sanctified by that working? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted August 19, 2009 Author Posted August 19, 2009 Quote: We have heard this all our adventist lives. Perhaps you could fill us in Sky. Are you a member of any Seventh day Adventist Church currently? Are you a member of a SDA Church Redwood? You do not teach what I recognise as SDA theology. You teach: Saved in sin. Satan is winning the battle against God. That all men will be saved (you have yet to confirm this). It is okay to eat pork. That Jesus will change our Characters when He comes and we do not need to worry about it now. Those, I would say are dangerous attacks against the foundational truths of our teachings. Now, if someone teaches those things and is a "member", I do not think they should be worrying about what others church attendance is like. But should worry about their own salvation and the fact they are undermining of some of the basic principles we hold as a people, that their influence is one that will confuse and teach others it is okay to sin. That should be the focus. I would deal with that first, before trying to bait another about something they have not decided to discuss... Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood I believe that the Holy Spirit works with even the one who is resisting and has not accepted the Holy Spirit in their life. Works with, pleads with, yes. But that is not sanctification. I would beg to differ. Sanctification is just the ups and downs of our experience. We all struggle with our growth in Christ. It looks differently with each person. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: We have heard this all our adventist lives. Perhaps you could fill us in Sky. Are you a member of any Seventh day Adventist Church currently? Are you a member of a SDA Church Redwood? You do not teach what I recognise as SDA theology. You teach: Saved in sin. Satan is winning the battle against God. That all men will be saved (you have yet to confirm this). It is okay to eat pork. That Jesus will change our Characters when He comes and we do not need to worry about it now. Those, I would say are dangerous attacks against the foundational truths of our teachings. Now, if someone teaches those things and is a "member", I do not think they should be worrying about what others church attendance is like. But should worry about their own salvation and the fact they are undermining of some of the basic principles we hold as a people, that their influence is one that will confuse and teach others it is okay to sin. That should be the focus. I would deal with that first, before trying to bait another about something they have not decided to discuss... Mark I am not ashemed to proclaim that I am a Seventh day Adventist and hold firm to all of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of our church. Your list of my beliefs are simply false. They are an attempt to smear my character. Only the evil one would cause this to be done. I pray that you will turn your life over to Christ and repent of your sins. May God help you. The concern that I have is that there are some who parade around as Adventist ... but who are not. We are warned of the influence of this type of person. They may appear to be close to our beliefs ... but when you get to the core ... it is not Adventism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 I would beg to differ. Sanctification is just the ups and downs of our experience. No that is not what santification is. Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 19, 2009 Posted August 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood I would beg to differ. Sanctification is just the ups and downs of our experience. No that is not what santification is. It is true that when we look at our past experience we see the ups and downs but that is not sanctification but evolution. The theory of evolution is built on the very foundation that nature has evolved through a cycle of ups and downs. "Christ knew that the life of His trusting disciples would be like His, a series of uninterrupted victories, not seen as such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter." D.A.679. When this experience is ours, we shall be lifted out of our poor, cheap selves, that we have cherished so tenderly and "Men will be captivated by the glory of an abiding Christ. And in currents of praise and thanksgiving from the many souls thus won to God, glory will flow back to the great Giver." C.O.L.420. When truth is contrasted with error, it shines even brighter. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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