The bible interprets itself...

[John317]

But do you remember how this deluded woman warned that if we reject the Testimonies the next step is to reject the Bible. MM has already thrown away most of the New Testament. The next thing to go is the Old Testament.

Right?

Since God made sure that the Hebrew Scriptures were kept pure, it seems only reasonable-- as well as in line with the evidence-- that this same God would also make sure the Greek Scriptures are reliable. After all, the Greek Scriptures testify to the coming of the Messiah. The NT proves the truth of the Hebrew Scriptures. That means it's as important for the NT to be kept pure as it was for the Old Testament. The word of God for the church is a unified whole.

The more I study the way the canon was developed, the more certain I am that God influenced the decisions of the church as to which books should be accepted.

Contrary to what some believe, it wasn't determined by a council or by a few people, or even by the RCC, but it was decided over a long period of time by the churches as a whole. The councils merely confirmed what the various congregations had already understood to be authoritative. No one forced the churches to accept these books. The councils didn't decide which books were authoritative. They simply listed the books that most congregations had already recognized as carrying authority. The authority is not in the the bishops or councils but in the Scriptures themselves.

For a good summary of the development of the NT canon, see Bruce Metzger's The Canon of the NT, p. 7.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Thanks for letting me know. Interesting how I read the same books and came to a different conclusion than you. To me, her books speak to me the same way the Bible does.

I'm a bit curious as to what is read that makes these people so angry.

So am I! Without SC, COL, & Ed, who knows if I ever would have left the US Navy, go back to college, and on to grad school?

I have at least half a dozen commmentaries. None of them touches me the way her writings do.

[Gerr]

Richard, he's trying to help us. You see, Richard, you and I are victims of a cult. We have been brainwashed. We are not following Jesus. We are following a deluded woman.

But do you remember how this "deluded" woman warned that if we reject the Testimonies the next step is to reject the Bible. MM has already thrown away most of the New Testament. The next thing to go is the Old Testament.

Right?

sky

I have spent countless hours when alone, especially while driving, going over in my own mind where she or I could have been deluded. On what important doctrinal point does she deviate from Scripture? I have yet to see it!!!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Haldog

Could be 9, been a while since I burned my set.

So you burned your set! So you are here as a former adventist.

"The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but now have been led to give it up because of the subjective influences of evil." 1 S.M.32.

i believe, haldog, that i violently disagree with you in many regards but i am so sorry that posts like these are allowed.

every person, regardless who they are or what they believe deserves to be treated with respect.

who knows, you might even be won back to the "right" position treated with respect and dignity!

food for possible thought:

Accusation, condemnation, and revenge are all of Satanic origin, and evil thoughts of others should be at once rejected from the mind,.... {ST, April 13, 1891 par. 3}

He judged and condemned her who had unjustly judged and condemned his servant. He to whom the hearts of all men are as an open book, read the hidden motives. He saw that the heart was leprous with sin, and he caused the plague of the heart to be revealed in the dreadful judgment of physical leprosy. As leprosy was sure death if permitted to take its natural course, so the leprosy of sin would destroy the soul unless the sinner received the healing of the grace of God. {ST, March 14, 1892 par. 8}

Since we cannot read the heart of another, let us beware of ascribing wrong motives to any man, lest we find ourselves involved in guilt similar to that of Miriam,--condemning those whom the Lord is teaching and guiding,--and thus bring upon ourselves the rebuke of God. {ST, March 14, 1892 par. 9}

And yet how many there are who place the worst possible construction on the words and acts of others. By these would-be judges every little thing is scrutinized in the light of their own perverted understanding; and instead of considering that they themselves may be in error, as were Aaron and Miriam, they repeat their suspicions to others, who take up the reproach; and thus the very work is wrought that Satan desires to accomplish. This work is what is called "rejoicing in iniquity." Love "rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things; love never faileth." This is the Christ side of the question...

The moral law is to judge us in the last day. How unbecoming it is for us to criticise others, when God must work so great a work upon us before we can be fitted for the kingdom of heaven! Is there any of the glory of Christ in suspicion and evil surmising, in criticism and condemnation of our brethren? We should pray for those who are in error. We should present before them the perfection of Christ, but we should not accuse and condemn our brethren and friends. {RH, July 2, 1889 par. 4}

All who are to be saints in heaven will first be saints upon the earth. They will not follow the sparks of their own kindling, they will not work for praise, nor speak words of vanity, nor put forth the finger in condemnation and oppression; but they will follow the Light of life, diffuse light, comfort, hope, and courage to the very ones who need help, and not censure and reproach. {RH, August 4, 1891 par. 7}

How much evil is done by unwise condemnation of others. O, whatever we do, let us not interpose ourselves between souls and God. How often has criticism of others, in the church or in the world, resulted in closing the door by which most precious truths might have found an entrance to hearts, and souls might have been converted to God. We need to humble ourselves at every step, and lift up the Man of Calvary, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Talk of the loveliness of the character of Christ. We are charged to be "holy in all manner of conversation." The Lord says, "Be ye holy; for I am holy." We must perfect a Christlike character, or we shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven. We are to have self hidden behind Jesus. We are to learn in his school meekness and lowliness of heart. All self-sufficiency must be put far from us. We are to come to a position before God where we can present the sacred, elevated truth in the demonstration of the Spirit and with power, so that there will be no savor of self about it. There is often such a mingling of self with the truth, that the hearers turn away in disgust. O, we must understand to a much greater extent the will and the way of God. {RH, April 26, 1892 par. 6}

.... When Christ came into the world, it was filled with criticism and condemnation of others, and Jesus revealed the sure result of such a course. The same results are manifest today. Those who have the greatest need to examine themselves whether they be in the faith, are most forward to pronounce sentence of evil against their brethren. Those who are accusers of the brethren are recipients of God's mercy and compassion, are every moment dependent upon his care and benevolence, and yet they are unmerciful to others, making it manifest that they have not allowed the truth to purify, refine, and sanctify them. Our characters are not to be weighed by smooth words and fair speeches manufactured for set times and occasions; but by the spirit and trend of the whole life. The unkind man, the critic, the one who is full of self-conceit, deceives his own soul, though claiming to be a clear discerner of the defects of others. He who has a disposition to find fault, to be suspicious, to surmise, think and speak evil, has so cultivated this attribute of the evil one that the good qualities of his brethren and sisters in the church do not arrest his attention. If he thinks he has discovered a flaw in the character, a mistake in the life, he is very officious to aim at the mote, when the very trait of character which he has overlooked in himself, which is developed in doing this unchristlike work, is, in comparison to what he criticises, when weighed in the golden balances of heaven as a beam in proportion to a mote. {RH, August 16, 1892 par. 3}

Then I was brought to my feet to bid them in the name of the Lord to cease their condemnation.... {RH, July 30, 1901 par. 6}

.... The satanic agencies are working to destroy, and God calls upon His servants to stand together, and to be meek and lowly in heart. We are to be kind and gentle in our treatment of one another. {RH, July 30, 1901 par. 7}

[Guest]

I don't think sky is guilty of all that.

[Woody]

Excellent Post teresaq. Thank you so much for all those quotes.

The conservatives think that everyone needs to believe as they do. And they will tear you apart in order to accomplish their agenda. They will even take the role of the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy.

These are some of my favorites:

Quote:

Nothing Will Atone for Lack of Courtesy.--Those who profess to be followers of Christ and are at the same time rough, unkind, and uncourteous in words and deportment have not learned of Jesus. A blustering, overbearing, faultfinding man is not a Christian; for to be a Christian is to be Christlike. The conduct of some professed Christians is so lacking in kindness and courtesy that their good is evil spoken of. Their sincerity may not be doubted; their uprightness may not be questioned, but sincerity and uprightness will not atone for a lack of kindness and courtesy. The Christian is to be sympathetic as well as true, pitiful and courteous as well as upright and honest. {AH 427.2}

Any negligence of acts of politeness and tender regard on the part of brother for brother, any neglect of kind, encouraging words in the family circle, parents with children and children with parents, confirms habits which make the character unchristlike. But if these little things are performed, they become great things. They increase to large proportions. They breathe a sweet perfume in the life which ascends to God as holy incense.

{AH 427.3}

"He who takes upon himself the work of judging and criticizing others, lays himself open to the same degree of judgment and criticism. Those who are ready to condemn their brethren, would do well to examine their own works and character. Such an examination, honestly made, will reveal the fact that they, too, have defects of character, and have made grave blunders in their work. If the great Judge should deal with men as they deal with their fellow workers, they would regard him as unkind and unmerciful." {ChL 59.2}

"Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye," the Saviour asked, "but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."--Review and Herald, Sept. 14, 1905. {ChL 59.3}

Quote:

We need not tell them that they will go to hell unless they keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. The truth itself, accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, will convict and convert hearts."—Manuscript 110, 1904. CTr 178.6

[oldsailor29]

I don't think sky is guilty of all that.

I agree. I don't think sky was harsh at all. In fact I think teresaq is the only one being harsh here. I think haldog was unwise to burn the testimonies, and that is not a harsh thing to say.

I just noticed, haldog spelled backward is godlah. Wonder what that means. lol

[Woody]

Sky was never mentioned. He was just an example of a negative post. I would hope if you were face to face with a non-SDA or former SDA ... that your attitude would be much better than what is displayed here by some.

For sure finger pointing is not going to win a former Adventist. But you could try demonstrating love and understanding.

[Guest]

uhh...That's who she quoted.

[oldsailor29]

Sky was never mentioned. He was just an example of a negative post. I would hope if you were face to face with a non-SDA or former SDA ... that your attitude would be much better than what is displayed here by some.

For sure finger pointing is not going to win a former Adventist. But you could try demonstrating love and understanding.

I'm sure my attitude is much better than that which is displayed here by some. I don't think I have accused anyone of anything here. I don't think I have called anyone any kind of a name. And if you were to stand face to face with me, and say you had burned your set of "Testimonies," I would still say it was an unwise thing to do.

The problem is people. Haldog seemed to be a devout SDA when he was in academy, but something happened after academy that caused a problem for him. We, who do not know what in the world that could have been, have no idea how to help him deal with it. I think at this point, only the Holy Spirit can help haldog. The SDA church will be there for him if he decides to return. But it will be the same enfeebled and defective church that he left. It will be made up of the same sinners who were there years ago. They will be reading the Bible and E G White to each other.

But the thing is, we don't need the church in order to be saved. Just because haldog burned all of his E G White books, doesn't mean he is lost and going to hell. I have a lot of E G White books, but you know what? haldog will probably make it to the Holy City before me, because Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." So, maybe haldog isn't the one here who is in the direst need of kindness after all. Maybe haldog is right, and maybe we SDAs are the lost souls who are most in need of demonstrations of love toward us.

I don't know. I think we come to this message board and present our thoughts as equals. And frankly, I don't see any finger pointing being done except by you and teresaq.

[Musicman1228]

Richard, he's trying to help us. You see, Richard, you and I are victims of a cult. We have been brainwashed. We are not following Jesus. We are following a deluded woman.

But do you remember how this "deluded" woman warned that if we reject the Testimonies the next step is to reject the Bible. MM has already thrown away most of the New Testament. The next thing to go is the Old Testament.

Right?

sky

Sky,

I see a big difference between throwing something away and merely not using it as proof of truth. I choose to not use the writings of Paul and of EGW and many others only because I see a significant difference between what they have written and what Jesus Christ taught His disciples while He was here on earth. I personally find little or no need to use the explanation of the words of Jesus by a person or persons that never knew Him face to face while he was here on earth. I find that the words of Jesus Christ are sufficient as an explanation of how salvation must work in my life. He is enough for me. The validity of the O.T. is not in question as far as I am concerned, because the O.T. was used exclusively by Jesus as Scripture, and what was good enough for Him is surely good enough for me. You are projecting incorrectly that I would ever think of 'throwing out' the Old Testament.

As to EGW, please tell me when belief in the writings of EGW became a test of faith in the Adventist church. When I was baptized in 1962 she was not a test of faith, although Joe Engelkmeyer (my Bible docs teacher, whom I greatly admired) would have loved that to be the case. I know that the church has included her in the 28 Fundamentals as a "continuing and authoritative source of truth". Continuing from what? From the Bible. The church has given her Scriptural authority equal to that of the Bible, and because of that if I had to sign on to the 28 Fundamentals to be baptized into the SDA church today I could not do it. As for me, she does not come close to having Scriptural authority, and never will.

I have a number of good friends that have left the SDA church specifically over the issue of EGW, declaring that she is a false prophet and the SDA church is a cult. I have chosen not to leave the SDA church, but rather work from within to expose and answer some of the difficulties that she brings to the table. Part of the reason that I KNOW that the SDA church is today the Kingdom of Heaven on earth is the very fact that EGW was declared a prophet of God by the church, and this status was not denied by her. We as a body of believers, and she as our 'prophet' are clearly spoken of in Scriptural prophecy and clearly indicate that we are the Kingdom of Heaven. I see no reason to leave my beloved church just because I disagree with some of the things that are believed as true by the church, but which are (in my opinion) not true.

[Guest]

Prophecy dosn't declare that we would think we had a prophet, who was not a prophet. Or that we would have a false prophet.

[Musicman1228]

Ref. Rev. 2:1-7. Who is or are the apostle(s) (living or dead) that are found false at the end of time?

Ref. Rev.2:19-29. Who is the prophetess with whom God finds fault at the end of time?

Ref. Rev.3:1-6. What is represented by Sardis-those whose name is alive but they are dead (asleep), whose works are not completed, who forgot what it was they learned at the beginning (1843-44) and now needs to repent, who are asleep and need to wake up lest the master come as a thief and they do not know when He came.

Ref. Matt. 25:1-13. Who is the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end who went out to meet the bridegroom but because He delayed His coming they all went to sleep, and wake up to a cry at midnight "The bridegroom is here, come out to meet Him."

Revelation is written only for the bondservants of God 'at the time of the end' (those who will live through the events listed in the book). These bondservants make up the Kingdom of Heaven, and it is ONLY for them to know the meaning of the prophecy.

Who then is the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time? You get one guess.

[Guest]

Who then is the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time? You get one guess.

Musicman, Dr. Rich, and wayfinder.

[oldsailor29]

I don't believe the kingdom of heaven is the SDA church. lol I think that is ridiculous. The kingdom of heaven is in heaven until God brings it to the new earth, after the millennium.

seems to me that there is a group who insists on a private interpretation of a parable involving a character known as a bondsman. I believe the parable applies to all congregations, and there is a bondsman or a servant leader in each congregation who, if he is doing his job, feeds the other servants/sheep their meat (testimony of Jesus) in due season.

I believe when it is due season, the Holy Spirit will open our understanding so we will be able to accept the truth. I believe that before the Holy Spirit opens our understanding, it is not yet the due season. So we can tell if it is due season for truth when people accept it.

However, I think our opening of understanding goes from truth to truth so that when a truth is rejected the next truth will not be understood. And I don't know what truth or truths have been rejected by the group who insists they have the only bondsman, but I think they need to go back and find out for themselves in order to get back on the right track.

[Musicman1228]

Oldsailor29,

You have clearly stated your belief, but you have not backed it up with texts indicating the foundation of your belief. You may disagree with my understanding but at least I provide texts for you to look at. It seems to me that to take the prophecies of Jesus Christ in Matt.24 and 25 and many other places and demean them by saying that they are ONLY parables and not prophecies is in and of itself a private interpretation. Jesus Christ is the greatest prophet and I know that his references to the Kingdom of Heaven are literal prophecies to which we had better pay attention.

[Guest]

The snake handlers have a text you can look at too.

[oldsailor29]

Oldsailor29,

You have clearly stated your belief, but you have not backed it up with texts indicating the foundation of your belief. You may disagree with my understanding but at least I provide texts for you to look at. It seems to me that to take the prophecies of Jesus Christ in Matt.24 and 25 and many other places and demean them by saying that they are ONLY parables and not prophecies is in and of itself a private interpretation. Jesus Christ is the greatest prophet and I know that his references to the Kingdom of Heaven are literal prophecies to which we had better pay attention.

It is true, that I have not provided proof texts for my positions. That is something I should work on.

Meanwhile, the truth is progressive. I will amend my statement. The whole of creation is God's kingdom. That makes sense. He created it. It is His. Earth is one of His vineyards. All who have dedicated their life to Him are working in His vineyard. The texts you refer to are there, but you have not provided clear evidence that your interpretation is correct. My interpretation simply says of these texts, they say some people will be ready and some people will not be ready for the Lord's coming.

[Guest]

Amen

[Woody]

Quote:

It is true, that I have not provided proof texts for my positions. That is something I should work on.

Yes, you could work on that ... but I doubt it would make much difference. There are always two ways to interpret a text ... the wrong way and the right way. Each person weighs a text in the accumulation of the light that they have.

Many come from the legalistic works oriented light. And that is fine ... but that is the way they will see the text until they come to a more mature understanding.

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

It is true, that I have not provided proof texts for my positions. That is something I should work on.

Yes, you could work on that ... but I doubt it would make much difference. There are always to ways to interpret a text ... the wrong way and the right way. Each person weighs a text in the accumulation of the light that they have.

Many come from the legalistic works oriented light. And that is fine ... but that is the way they will see the text until they come to a more mature understanding.

This indicates your comment on the sabbath school lesson was prompted by an enthusiastic interest in the "faith/works" discussion. Well, good for you. I believe salvation is by faith alone. Of course those who have the faith will also have the works, and that's how we, who cannot see the heart, that's how we know they have faith. But I think we emphasize that part too much. I think the emphasis should be on faith.

[Woody]

Try as I might ... I could not hide my concern. You have correctly IDed it. And I agree with your post. I just wanted to keep with the SS lesson and I am afraid I myself got sidetracked.

[Gerr]

Excellent Post teresaq. Thank you so much for all those quotes.

The conservatives think that everyone needs to believe as they do. And they will tear you apart in order to accomplish their agenda. They will even take the role of the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. I notice you seem to take pleasure in taking a poke at conservatives. She has some things to say about liberals too.

"progress of reform depends upon a clear recognition of fundamental truth. While, on the one hand, danger lurks in a narrow philosophy and a hard, cold orthodoxy, on the other hand there is great danger in a careless liberalism. The foundation of all enduring reform is the law of God. We are to present in clear, distinct lines the need of obeying this law. Its principles must be kept before the people. They are as everlasting and inexorable as God Himself." {MH 129.4}

White, E. G. (1905; 2002). The Ministry of Healing; Ministry of Healing (129). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"The position that it is of no consequence what men believe is one of Satan’s most successful deceptions. He knows that the truth, received in the love of it, sanctifies the soul of the receiver; therefore he is constantly seeking to substitute false theories, fables, another gospel. From the beginning the servants of God have contended against false teachers, not merely as vicious men, but as inculcators of falsehoods that were fatal to the soul. Elijah, Jeremiah, Paul, firmly and fearlessly opposed those who were turning men from the word of God. That liberality which regards a correct religious faith as unimportant found no favor with these holy defenders of the truth." {GC 520.2}

White, E. G. (1911; 2002). The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Conflict of the Ages, Volume 5; Great Controversy (520). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"By the cry, Liberality, men are blinded to the devices of their adversary, while he is all the time working steadily for the accomplishment of his object. As he succeeds in supplanting the Bible by human speculations, the law of God is set aside, and the churches are under the bondage of sin while they claim to be free." {GC 522.1}

White, E. G. (1911; 2002). The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Conflict of the Ages, Volume 5; Great Controversy (522). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[Twilight]

I don't believe the kingdom of heaven is the SDA church. lol I think that is ridiculous. The kingdom of heaven is in heaven until God brings it to the new earth, after the millennium.

seems to me that there is a group who insists on a private interpretation of a parable involving a character known as a bondsman. I believe the parable applies to all congregations, and there is a bondsman or a servant leader in each congregation who, if he is doing his job, feeds the other servants/sheep their meat (testimony of Jesus) in due season.

I believe when it is due season, the Holy Spirit will open our understanding so we will be able to accept the truth. I believe that before the Holy Spirit opens our understanding, it is not yet the due season. So we can tell if it is due season for truth when people accept it.

However, I think our opening of understanding goes from truth to truth so that when a truth is rejected the next truth will not be understood. And I don't know what truth or truths have been rejected by the group who insists they have the only bondsman, but I think they need to go back and find out for themselves in order to get back on the right track.

My view is simple:

The kingdom of heaven is where God is...

Mark

[oldsailor29]

My view is simple:

The kingdom of heaven is where God is...

Mark

I think you are quite right. And God is everywhere, and beyond. His kingdom includes all which is finite and the infinitely greater all, which is infinite.