The Heart of the 1888 Message

[jasd]

>>Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father.<<

Yet, we know from Luke 23:43 that three days earlier, Jesus Christ saw to it that the Thief was ensconced in Paradise, and interim, according to St Peter, He, in the spirit, preached…

>>He walk with a couple of people to emaus, he went to see the disciples, and I believe it was about 30 or 40 days before he left to go back to heaven to finish his work. So it seems pretty obvious where that comma should go and what he meant.<<

That would have to assume that at the time of the crucifixion, Gd the Father dwelt in Paradise.

[jasd]

>>That's right and it proves that Jesus had not already been to heaven.<<

Paradise! Good fellow… Paradise is to heaven what Eden was to earth. If not, then we must take the doctrinal road espoused by the good brethren of the RC – and admit to Paradise maybe sharing synonymies with Purgatory.

>>He layed in the tomb three days.<<

His carnal self did indeed lie in the tomb; however, St Peter informs us that His spirit (or per St Paul, His inner man), quickened by the HS, went preachin’ – to other ‘spirits’ who had dwelt before the flood.

>>So like I said: Even Jesus didn't go to heaven that day.<<

No one made that specific assertion. My purport was that both Jesus Christ and the Thief went to Paradise that day; inasmuch as Paradise may have been the smallest part of heaven, we may infer that He went to 'heaven'.

>>There is no halfway point called paradise,<<

Whoa! who said that Paradise was a “halfway point”?

[jasd]

>>The Father is in the third heaven.<<

The Father may actually be in what is called 'the Heaven of Heavens'; there is doubt that that would be the third heaven.

>>That is already established.<<

By whom?

[skyblue888]

Back to the 1888 message, the heart and essence of righteousness by faith.

lafferty, (see his post below mine) "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour are the foundation of the Christian's faith." This is the message found on page 73 of The Great Controversy. On the next page is found another message and it is that when the Reformers discovered this which Mrs. White says is the "true light" it is written that "they cast themselves wholly upon the merits of Jesus."

This is a stupendous truth. There is more here than meets the eyes of those who have not yet been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. The merits of Christ are everything to us. By appropriating them by faitn on a daily basis God receives un to Himself and we are greatly blessed with all the blessings of the covenant of grace and that includes the gifts of confession and repentance for it is the Holy Spirit alone who leads us to confession and repentance.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

The only way for Christ to abide in us and us in Him according to the commandment is to daily appropriate His merits to ourselves. This is the only true faith.

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

This we must daily do and this is what it means to continue in the faith. This is the true religion, the only religion of the Bible.

sky

Indeed Sky the merrits of Jesus are good and sufficient in that he has bought us with an execeedingly high price...for salvation was not cheap ...... and He is worthy .... but is that all you are going to talk of at this time ? must we not experience Him personally ? as a personal Savior ... do we just skate in to the kingdom with the Merits of Jesus? I we confess our sins He ! is faithful to forgive and cleans ! us from all unrightwousness ( just on the record? )

laffterty

[skyblue888]

To behold the Lamb of God is to understand the necessity of faith in His merits. This is the lesson the pen of inspiration tells us the Israelites were to learn from their experience in the wilderness when God told Moses to erect a serpent of brass on a pole. Those who looked to the serpent were healed but those who refused to look died. Of this we read, "They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God., and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtrue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds." P.P.430.

As we behold the Lamb of God and accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim the Holy Spirit is given to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character. See F.W.38 and T.M.93.

About prayer. Heaven is a ceaseless approach unto God through the merits of Jesus Christ. "Habitually dwelling upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits increases faith, quickens the power of spiritual discernment, strengthens the desire to be like Him and brings into prayer an earnestness that makes it efficacious." Gospel Workers, 166.

Then, on page 431, we read these words: "Though milions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perish."

sky

I was wondering wheen I would see this come out .....Behold !! The Lamb of God !! Jthe woeds which come out of the mouth of JtB.... paul by beholding we change ... and the spirit of prophesy .... By beholding are changed into the likeness of His dear son .... the image of the devine of God .... we must study His holy character .... the divine image revreated in man .... Enoch did this .... it says He walked 300 yrs with God.... TL ... study His life !! HIs work .... TL .... and Prayer is the very breath of heaven .... yes ther is importance in constant prayer...

lafferty

[teresaq]

>>Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father.<<

Yet, we know from Luke 23:43 that three days earlier, Jesus Christ saw to it that the Thief was ensconced in Paradise, and interim, according to St Peter, He, in the spirit, preached…

"Verily I say unto Thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."

Did the thief go to be with Jesus in Paradise that day?-Assuredly not; for Jesus Himself did not go there. The tree of life, before the throne of God, "is in the midst of the Paradise of God" (Rev. xxii. 1; 2; ii. 7), so that whoever goes to Paradise goes into the presence of God. Yet the third day after the crucifixion, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He said to Mary: "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Fattier; and to My God, and your God." John xx. 17. Later in that same day He allowed the disciples to touch Him, showing that in the meantime He had ascended to heaven, and received from the Father the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted, and had returned.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father.<<

Yet, we know from Luke 23:43 that three days earlier, Jesus Christ saw to it that the Thief was ensconced in Paradise, and interim, according to St Peter, He, in the spirit, preached…

"Verily I say unto Thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."

Did the thief go to be with Jesus in Paradise that day?-Assuredly not; for Jesus Himself did not go there. The tree of life, before the throne of God, "is in the midst of the Paradise of God" (Rev. xxii. 1; 2; ii. 7), so that whoever goes to Paradise goes into the presence of God. Yet the third day after the crucifixion, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He said to Mary: "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Fattier; and to My God, and your God." John xx. 17. Later in that same day He allowed the disciples to touch Him, showing that in the meantime He had ascended to heaven, and received from the Father the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted, and had returned.

Can't get any clearer than that.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

To behold the Lamb of God is to understand the necessity of faith in His merits. This is the lesson the pen of inspiration tells us the Israelites were to learn from their experience in the wilderness when God told Moses to erect a serpent of brass on a pole. Those who looked to the serpent were healed but those who refused to look died. Of this we read, "They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God., and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtrue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds." P.P.430

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: sky

To behold the Lamb of God is to understand the necessity of faith in His merits. This is the lesson the pen of inspiration tells us the Israelites were to learn from their experience in the wilderness when God told Moses to erect a serpent of brass on a pole. Those who looked to the serpent were healed but those who refused to look died. Of this we read, "They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God., and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtrue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds." P.P.430

When I think of Christ's merits, I think of His works, His purpose, or mission, whatever you want to call it, which was the revelation of God.

Quote:

Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance... Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes....

Christ revealed himself to their souls. Divinity flashed through humanity, and they returned so filled with this one thought, so charmed with the ideas he had presented, that when the leaders of Israel inquired, "Why have ye not brought him?" they replied, "Never man spake like this man." They had seen that which priests and rulers would not see,--humanity flooded with the light and glory of divinity. Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. (ST 1/20/90)

When you speak of faith in Christ's merits, do you have in mind believing the revelation of the Father which He portrayed, or something else?

If I may offer a thought?

What are Christs merits?

The merit of His perfect works.

From the stepping down from the Heavenly throne to assume the guise of man.

And all the way, to His return to heaven as a perfect intercessor.

So His merits are those things that He did, that the Father can accept.

But mercy of mercies, those merits are given to us as a gift.

We claim them and accept them, and it is as if they are our own.

Then the promises of God become our own.

The robe of Christ to Justify us.

The indwelling of the Spirit to Sanctify us.

God bless,

Mark

[teresaq]

The indwelling of the Spirit to Sanctify us.

if i may ask, just how can the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The indwelling of the Spirit to Sanctify us.

if i may ask, just how can the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]." Hebrews 10:9+10

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The indwelling of the Spirit to Sanctify us.

if i may ask, just how can the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

Does not the Bible speak of the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. "It is the Holy Spirit in the heart which works by love to purify the soul." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4, 1179.

This is "the faith which works by love" spoken of in Galatians 5:6.

"It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the beginning of eternal life." D.A.388.

"Sin can be resisted only through the Third Person of the Godhead who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power... It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil and to impress His character upon His church." D.A.671.

And Christ's nature is far above that which Adam and Eve forfeited by transgression! "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam and Eve forfeited by transgression." E.G. White, The Upward Look, p.18.

Thus we read, "Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." Our Father Cares, p.121.

Foor for thought!!!

sky

[skyblue888]

Yes the merits of Christ are the merits of His great sacrifice from the time He left the heavenly courts when He relinquished for ever His divine form to take the form of a servant in the fashion of a man to be obedient even unto death upon the cross of Calvary. Even in death He was obedient to the Father because it was His human nature that sank and died upon Calvary and not His divinity.

Mrs. White asked, Who can measure the infinity of the sacrifice? God Himself has bowed in acceptance of the sacrifice. So it is so full of divine merits that all creature merits pale into utter worthlessness. The sacrifice of Christ is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son that was poured out for us upon Calvary's cross. See F.W.22. Therefore it is full of divine merits and it is these very merits that we are invited to appropriate by faith by claiming them. It is our privilege to claim them on a daily basis and unless we do so we cannot be saved. See T.M.93.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

This is an interesting thread. I was wondering if I would get through the whole thing without anyone quoting Jones or Waggoner. But Richard quoted Jones, which was good to see. It's hard to understand how one could discuss the 1888 message without discussing what the 1888 messengers actually said.

I like Jones as well (someone said they like Jones; can't remember who, so I'm agreeing with that person). I think particularly wonderful are his 1895 sermons discussing the nature of Christ. I think they may start at sermon 15. I'll mention a theme that isn't often considered.

Not only did Christ take our nature, but He took our sin as well. The combination of taking our nature, and our sin, enabled Him to be tempted in all points as we are. He was not simply tempted as one who had never sinned, but taking our sin, He was tempted as we are (as one who has sinned). Jones brings out that as we experience Christ's righteousness as if it were ours, even thought it's not (it's 100% His), so He experience our sin as if it were His.

There's a great deal of comfort in this. Christ knows what it feels like to be tempted as we are, tempted as a sinful human being.

I suppose I should quote something form Jones, since I've commented on the 1888 messengers not being quoted.

Quote:

Christ became ourselves, in our place, weak as we, and in all points like as we are, in order that he might be that forever and never that we should be Himself. No. It is God who is to be manifested always and not ourselves. In order that this might be, Christ emptied Himself and took ourselves in order that God Himself might come to us, appear in us, and be revealed in us and through us in all things. It is always God and never ourselves. That which ruined us at the start was the exaltation of ourselves, the setting forth of ourselves and the putting of ourselves above God. In order that we might get rid of our wicked selves, Christ emptied His righteous self and stood in the place of our wicked selves and crucified ourselves, putting ourselves under foot always, in order that God might be all in all. How much? All. All in how many? All. It was done that God might be all that there is in me and all there is in you and all there is in Christ. Assuredly that is what this was done for. We are not to exalt ourselves. Christ is to increase. I am to decrease. He is to live. I am to die. He is to be exalted. I am to be emptied. (A. T. Jones, 1895 Sermon, #16)

Quite wonderful, I think.

As much as I like Jones, if anything, I think I like Waggoner even more. There are so many ideas to mention from Waggoner, one hardly knows where to begin. Well, since this is a long post already, maybe I'll "begin" by not quoting anything. I'll just mention three favorite things of his.

1.Studies on Romans (1891 I think; not the "Waggoner on Romans" book collected from Signs of the Times articles, although these are good too.

These are wonderful sermons. I remember feeling as if I were in the atmosphere of heaven the first time I read these.

2.The Everlasting Covenant. So many wonderful ideas in this book.

3.The Glad Tidings. Ditto.

I'll stop with that, although I'll mention that for anyone wishing to understand Galatians, in addition to "The Glad Tidings," "The Gospel in Galatians" is wonderful to read.

All of these resources are available on line, btw, except for "The Everlasting Covenant" I think. (that is, I'm sure all the others are online, but I don't think "The Everlasting Covenant" is, but it could be without my knowing).

[Guest]

I am reading Jones now. (Lessons on Faith)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

if i may ask' date=' just how can the Holy Spirit sanctify us? [/quote']

Does not the Bible speak of the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. "It is the Holy Spirit in the heart which works by love to purify the soul." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4, 1179.

This is "the faith which works by love" spoken of in Galatians 5:6...

im trying to get specific...in other words, how do we know which "spirit" we are following? how does the Holy Spirit sanctify us? is there something we have to do to enable that?

i have a thought on how that would work, but im waiting to see how others see it.

[Lutz13]

I am reading Jones now. (Lessons on Faith)

I read some of that, very good!

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:pkrause

Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father.

Quote:jasd

Yet, we know from Luke 23:43 that three days earlier, Jesus Christ saw to it that the Thief was ensconced in Paradise, and interim, according to St Peter, He, in the spirit, preached…

>>"Verily I say unto Thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."<<

First: Have you taken a look at the instances (in such as Strong’s) wherein Jesus Christ’s utterances of His “Verilies...” are listed? and noticed the comma placements? Yet, to satisfy a manufactured and/or dogmatic position vis-à-vis Writ – it has been handed down – that there exists a one-time exception in Jesus Christ’s signature statement; purportedly found in Luke 23:43. One wonders at The Word, The One who surely understood language, redundantly stating the obvious; that is, advising the Thief that He, Jesus Christ, was speaking to him “Today”. How miscued must The Word have been upon that elementary point of linguistics... [/hyperbole]

To satisfy the irregular dogma re the comma - Jesus Christ would more properly have said such as - "Today, you are assured of Paradise."

But then, who are we to presume upon Jesus Christ?

Having stated the above, that is not to say that Gd never

utilized the repeated phrase...

>>Did the thief go to be with Jesus in Paradise that day?<<

Mais oui! but of course! “For He spoke, and it was done”.

>>-Assuredly not; for Jesus Himself did not go there.<<

According to the explicit wording of the passage in Luke 23:43 – He, indeed, did go there – taking the Thief. If not, we must assume that Jesus Christ was in such severe discomfort that He misspoke.

But then again, we presume...!

>>The tree of life, before the throne of God, "is in the midst of the Paradise of God" (Rev. xxii. 1; 2; ii. 7),<<

Rev 2:7 ... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,...

Second: It may behoove us to avoid conflating extremities. For instance – Revelation 22 speaks to us of the New Jerusalem, the city – within which Paradise is depicted... Upon its foundations are written the names of the twelve Apostles. Question: When was/is the New Jerusalem created that the Apostles are portrayed as foundational to the City? If the answer is advanced that it was so circa the time of the Lord’s crucifixion – we have doctrinal problems...

Does Revelation 2 or 22, or any other text, inform us that Paradise, together with the Tree of Life, was always before Gd’s throne? Does any text in Holy Writ inform us that the Tree of Life has always grown from the midst of a street and straddled a river?

Let’s not forget that our NT was written in vernacular Greek – wherein Paradise already had its well-defined meaning.

>>Yet the third day after the crucifixion, after Jesus had risen from the dead, He said to Mary: "Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Fattier; and to My God, and your God." John xx. 17. Later in that same day He allowed the disciples to touch Him, showing that in the meantime He had ascended to heaven, and received from the Father the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted, and had returned.<<

The implication in the above seems to be that Gd dwelt in Paradise. I cannot find that either implicitly or explicitly in Writ.

[John317]

All of these resources are available on line, btw, except for "The Everlasting Covenant" I think. (that is, I'm sure all the others are online, but I don't think "The Everlasting Covenant" is, but it could be without my knowing).

This help?

http://adventaudio.org/2009/07/06/the-everlasting-covenant/

[jasd]

A couple of questions: whatever happened to Jones and Waggoner?

Where is their exegesis on agape love? as St Paul explicitly stated that agape love is greater

than faith.

[John317]

[Guest]

Wow John, I never knew that. About the space I mean.

[John317]

Have you seen the Sinaiticus?

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manusc...mp;zoomSlider=0

[Guest]

No I haven't. Thanks

[John317]

Yes, both Jones and Waggoner had a lot to say about agape love. Have you read their books before? They're excellent.

You ask whatever happened to them.

On Jones, wikipedia--

From 1901 to 1903, Jones served as president of the California Conference of the church. Leaving this position, he accepted an invitation to work with Dr. John Harvey Kellogg at the Battle Creek Sanitarium at Battle Creek, Michigan, which was under Kellogg’s directorship. Because Kellogg was at that time in conflict with the leadership of the church, Jones was counseled not to pursue this course. Coupled with tensions arising from theological opposition that had dogged him since the 1888 General Conference session, Jones’s association with Kellogg soon soured his allegiance to the Church and ceased his denominational employment and fellowship.

Though separated from fellowship, A.T. Jones remained loyal to the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church until his death in 1923.

On Waggoner, from the wikipedia--

In 1892 Waggoner went to England where he became the editor of The Present Truth magazine. He remained there for ten years, working with W. W. Prescott in the training school in England, and continuing in his writing and studies on Christ and His righteousness.

Upon his return to the United States, he joined the faculty of Emmanuel Missionary College (now Andrews University). Because of a divorce and his subsequent remarriage, he separated from denominational employment. He spent the last years of his life employed by the Battle Creek Sanitarium.

Waggoner died at home in Battle Creek on Friday, May 28, 1916. He had been visiting with his daughter Pearl and her husband, Adventist pastor Elder Ellis Howard who were visiting on their way to the mission field. After retiring, he had a stroke in his sleep.