The Heart of the 1888 Message

[Guest]

No she siezed on the one statement where Red got it right.

[Guest]

But he has stated many times that that is not what he believes.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Wow, so this is the message that will prepare a people for the time of trouble. I am currently reading this e-book found on one of the links Just provided. E-book What is 1888

Wow is all I can say. I am very excited right now!!!

I truly wish I would have found out what the big deal was about 1888 earlier.

anyone who wishes can read jones sermons from may 1889 here http://www.sdabol.org/sbhn/1888/1889sor.htm

that is one site of several. its as close to 88 as there is.

I found it very good. whatever is written about the message, nor anyones understanding of what the message is does not compare to the actual message.

Could you then summarize for us the 1888 message from what you have read in these sermons? Could you do a better job than what Mrs. White did?

Over the years I have real Jones and Waggoner's materials. It is all good and I recommend their writings to everyone. I find it rather interesting though that you Teresa, the other day, asked me if I got my information from Jones and Waggoner implying that their message contained errors and that I was guilty of teaching the same errors that they taught!!! Remember that?

Now you are saying the very opposite, that in order to get as close as we can to the truth of 1888 we ought to read what they wrote.

I can quote from their books too but if I did there would be some here who would take this as an opportunity to raise doubts for me doing this by saying that they have "apostatized" and therefore we cannot trust their writings. I think you know exactly what I am talking about, don't u Teresa?

This is why I always quote from Mrs. White when it comes to the 1888 message, and, by the way, if there was someone who spelled out the message for us in a very clear and simple way, so simply that a child can understand it, it was Mrs. White. Jones and Waggoner did not speak of the merits of Christ in the way that Mrs. White did. And yet she said that every fiber of her being said "Amen" when listening to these two brethren. She was a very humble woman and I don't know anyone who presented the 1888 message the way she did. For a long time I thought Jones and Waggoner were the champions. True the Lord used them mightily but Mrs. White did a much better job at simplifying the 1888 message so that none of us could have any excuse to reject it or to misunderstand it. When she wrote, "There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ," or "Not one who trusts in the merits of Christ will be left to perish," or "Take hold by faith of the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied," or "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress," and many more,, she was giving us the whole Bible in a few words.

She gave us the whole law and the prophets when, in 1888, she wrote,

"We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa, without dew or rain. Let the law take care of itself. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see."

sky

[skyblue888]

But he has stated many times that that is not what he believes.

Exactly Richard. And I have a pretty good idea as to why she seized upon that statement from Red as an opportunity to get back at someone she despises and yet this is supposed to be Christlike?

hmmmm

sky

[Guest]

Does she despise you?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

These quotes are all well and good. I have no disagreement with them when properly understood. We are to stop sinning. Christ came not to destroy but to fulfill the Law. It is the curse of the Law that was fulfilled In Christ. We are to obey but when we sin we have an advocate with the Father.

And what helps to keep us from sinning? The Holy Spirit.

thought i would let you know that im reading what you are saying and not what you are accused of saying.

it seems to me that one can be so busy defending the belief that we are to be sinless, that the same one is not aware that his/her behavior denies his/her belief.

by disrespecting, and lying about, another poster one is claiming to the world that, either they dont really believe one can be sinless, Christlike, or that one has very little idea of what Christlike is.

Thanks teresaq. I appreciate it. It does get real old hearing all the lies and misrepresentation of what I write. I usually just right it off considering the source. But when it gets repeated and repeated ... at times I have to respond rather then my usual ignoring of it.

God is my judge. But I do know that with all this finger pointing .... those pointing fingers have many more pointing right back at 'em.

It is interesting that the very ones who try to claim exclusive ownership of Ellen White .... are the very ones who twist and change her writings for their perverted gospel.

I've shown through Ellen White and scripture my personal belief and that of most SDAs. But, some continue to lie about my position . They ignore the side of EGW that I present and want to mold her into their theories. Their claim on exclusive ownership is evident by their accusation and ridiculous one at that. Here it is:

""Red,(you) reject just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

So it is ME that rejects "just about everything she said"? What a lie. What is truth is that I refuse to agree with their legalistic garbage that they want to pass off on others.

That makes me a target for I stand up for present truth.

[skyblue888]

Richard, just keep reading. :)

[skyblue888]

All Red is waiting for is someone to criticise us or to sympatize with him and off he goes. Right Red?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

thought i would let you know that im reading what you are saying and not what you are accused of saying.

it seems to me that one can be so busy defending the belief that we are to be sinless' date=' that the same one is not aware that his/her behavior denies his/her belief.

by disrespecting, and lying about, another poster one is claiming to the world that, either they dont really believe one can be sinless, Christlike, or that one has very little idea of what Christlike is.

[/quote']

Thanks teresaq. I appreciate it. It does get real old hearing all the lies and misrepresentation of what I write. I usually just right it off considering the source. But when it gets repeated and repeated ... at times I have to respond rather then my usual ignoring of it.

God is my judge. But I do know that with all this finger pointing .... those pointing fingers have many more pointing right back at 'em.

It is interesting that the very ones who try to claim exclusive ownership of Ellen White .... are the very ones who twist and change her writings for their perverted gospel.

I've shown through Ellen White and scripture my personal belief and that of most SDAs. But, some continue to lie about my position . They ignore the side of EGW that I present and want to mold her into their theories. Their claim on exclusive ownership is evident by their accusation and ridiculous one at that. Here it is:

""Red,(you) reject just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

So it is ME that rejects "just about everything she said"? What a lie. What is truth is that I refuse to agree with their legalistic garbage that they want to pass off on others.

Red, in your heart of heart, you know that what I have said was not an accusation but simply stating facts based on what you post here and I am not the only one who is aware of that, and that you know as well.

Let me repeat it. When someone states again and again that our characters will be chanaged only at the coming of Christ, that we cannot overcome as Jesus overcame, that we sin and that we will continue to sin until death or until Jesus comes, then it becomes very clear to all on whose side we are when we teach such things since they are diametrically opposed to the clear declarations of the Bible and the Testimonies of God's Spirit that our characters must be changed prior to the close of probation and that only those who perfect their characters before probation closes will be able to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and to live without an Intercessor in the sanctuary above and be translated without seeing death.

Just to mention these.

sky

[Twilight]

All Red is waiting for is someone to criticise us or to sympatize with him and off he goes. Right Red?

sky

Just remember my friend, if the enemy can create controversy on these threads, then the message is clouded.

Sometimes it is best not to respond to it.

"Like a lamb led to the slaughter, He opened not His mouth..."(paraphrase)

God bless,

Mark

[Woody]

Ha Ha. You are like a rabid broken record. I'm not going to repeat myself again. You mind would not grasp it. So go ahead .... keep up your babbling.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

All Red is waiting for is someone to criticise us or to sympatize with him and off he goes. Right Red?

sky

Just remember my friend, if the enemy can create controversy on these threads, then the message is clouded.

Sometimes it is best not to respond to it.

"Like a lamb led to the slaughter, He opened not His mouth..."(paraphrase)

God bless,

Mark

I know all about being quiet my friend. I have been for a long time but there is a time for everything. There is a time when controversy is the means for the light to shine out of the darkness. The Lord Himself said that he would send heresies among us to wake us up.

You have had your time with Red and you know exactly what I am talking about Mark. At this point, I feel impressed to say what I have to say. If there is something the enemy would like to see now is for us who are of the same faith to start bickering among us.

sky

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:skyblue888

We must daily appropriate the merits of Christ by claiming them before our sins may be forgiven and before we are clothed with the glistening vesture of Christ's righteousness which accomplishes everything. See F.W.65,66,27. [ed.jasd]

Quote:jasd

So what then is [purportedly] freely given? or is it all just so much brouhaha and – conditional, after all?

What then of the doctrine that our sins were [already] forgiven at the cross?

>>Jasd, you are absolutely right. It is all freely given. The provision is there but we must do our part. "Man's part is to lay hold by faith of the merits of Christ." F.W.430. "Faith is the gift of God but the power to exercise it is ours." P.P.431.

[...] Thus he may go on from faith to faith, from grace to grace and from victory to victory. See Romans 1:17.<<

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I concede that it is the faith of the individual vis-à-vis Jesus Christ which is referenced in Romans 1; however, getting back to the issue of the “must” of “sins” and “forgiveness”...

Jn 20:23 Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whosesoever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

St John writes of that which may be – and leaves us with a conundrum. Example: a man lies dying with no active or demonstrable faith on his part; further, he has no concept of justification, sanctification, faith, merits, robes, etc – in other words, the mélange of dogmas and doctrines. He posses no more than a certain hopefulness and resignation. His sins are remitted by and through the faith [and authority] of another. Will he, the question of arcanery aside – ultimately attend ‘the marriage of the Lamb’?

General statement: It is not the OT Ten Commandments which are written upon the hearts of saints; it is, rather, “My Laws” – and much, much more than that formerly chiseled in stone. Moreover, a new High Priest of the Tribe of Judah and of another Order – bespeaks of other than the sameness of the old.

[Guest]

Deep down inside every man, woman, and child, there is the fundamental idea of God. The man lying there will call on the Lord and be saved.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Just remember my friend' date=' if the enemy can create controversy on these threads, then the message is clouded.

Sometimes it is best not to respond to it.

"Like a lamb led to the slaughter, He opened not His mouth..."(paraphrase)

God bless,

Mark [/quote']

I know all about being quiet my friend. I have been for a long time but there is a time for everything. There is a time when controversy is the means for the light to shine out of the darkness. The Lord Himself said that he would send heresies among us to wake us up.

You have had your time with Red and you know exactly what I am talking about Mark. At this point, I feel impressed to say what I have to say. If there is something the enemy would like to see now is for us who are of the same faith to start bickering among us.

sky

I agree with your assessment, no doubt in my mind, fruits reveal themselves. :-)

I just get the sense when we get drawn into controversy, the impact of the message gets lost.

That is the enemies desire. But I am the last to state how the Spirit should lead another. :-)

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

But I am the last to state how the Spirit should lead another.

I am glad to hear that.

The turning over of a new leaf?

[Twilight]

Quote:

But I am the last to state how the Spirit should lead another.

I am glad to hear that.

The turning over of a new leaf?

I would point out that Sky's response could have been read both ways.

1. A response from self.

2. A response led by the Spirit.

Both could have been the motivator.

Hence my concern and subsequent acceptance of his position.

---------------

This is entirely different however to accepting someone say that they are led by the Spirit when they reject the testimony of the Spirit under the pretext of "personal opinion".

I am yet to find anything in Gods Word that says:

"I can have my own opinion which is opposed to inspired counsel, and be inspired by the same Spirit."

I would not want to confuse the two positions.

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

thought i would let you know that im reading what you are saying and not what you are accused of saying.

it seems to me that one can be so busy defending the belief that we are to be sinless' date=' that the same one is not aware that his/her behavior denies his/her belief.

by disrespecting, and lying about, another poster one is claiming to the world that, either they dont really believe one can be sinless, Christlike, or that one has very little idea of what Christlike is. [/quote']

Teresa, what on earth are you doing now? sympatizing with the wrongdoers? are you identifying yourself with those who teach that we cannot stop sinning this side of heaven? is that your message and is it part of your message to then label those who believe that we can stop from sinning through the merits of Christ to be unChristlike?

Psa 119:85 The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

anyone who wishes can read jones sermons from may 1889 here http://www.sdabol.org/sbhn/1888/1889sor.htm

that is one site of several. its as close to 88 as there is.

I found it very good. whatever is written about the message, nor anyones understanding of what the message is does not compare to the actual message. [/quote']

Could you then summarize for us the 1888 message from what you have read in these sermons? Could you do a better job than what Mrs. White did?

Over the years I have real Jones and Waggoner's materials. It is all good and I recommend their writings to everyone. I find it rather interesting though that you Teresa, the other day, asked me if I got my information from Jones and Waggoner implying that their message contained errors and that I was guilty of teaching the same errors that they taught!!! Remember that?

Now you are saying the very opposite, that in order to get as close as we can to the truth of 1888 we ought to read what they wrote....I think you know exactly what I am talking about, don't u Teresa?

my brother i gave a link to the "horses mouth" so to speak. i dont understand why you appear to be upset about that and then proceed to disregard this: Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

for those who value truth above life itself here is the link to what was really said and not reported as to have said. note that the dear brother hijacked my thread that i had started and objecting to my posts on the thread that i had started.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/273392/9.html posts 226990 and 226992

is there any message that justifies breaking the law of God?

[Woody]

Quote:

Psa 119:85 The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Excellent scripture teresaq.

[skyblue888]

Yes excellent! To be sure!!! Praise the Lord Red!!!

sky

[skyblue888]

Back to the heart of the 1888 most precious message in all its beauty and simplicity:

Everyone here knows how Mark and I find it important to "harp" on the merits of Christ as the remedy provided for sin. A few minutes ago, while I was chatting with someone, I opened the first volume of Selected Messages without even thinking about what I was doing and my eyes fell on this paragraph: (please pay very close attention to what it says)

"The human family is in trouble because of their transgression of the Father's law. But God does not leave the sinner until He shows the remedy for sin. The only-begotten Son of God has died that we might live. The Lord has accepted this sacrifice in our behalf, as our substitute and surety, on the condition that we receive Christ and believe on Him. The sinner must come in faith to Christ, take hold of His merits, lay his sins upon the Sin Bearer, and receive His pardon. It was for this cause that Christ came into the world. Thus the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the repentant, believing sinner. He becomes a member of the Royal Family, a child of the heavenly King, an heir of God, and joint heir with Christ." 1 S.M.215.

Then compare the above with this:

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners. Not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

The first statement from Selected Messages makes it forever clear that God does not expect anyone to repent and forsake his sins before He may receive Christ and believe on Him. On the contrary, it says that the sinner must come in faith to Christ, take hold of His merits and lay his sins upon the Sin-Bearer and receive His pardon. Thus the righteousness of Christ is imputed to him, for "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress." F.W.94. Thus the pardoned soul may go on from faith to faith, from grace to grace, from victory to victory, and from light to a greater light!

This goes hand in hand with the statements I posted earlier from the book Faith and Works, p.64 and 38 which clearly state that the sinner need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before He may take hold of Christ and His righteousness. He may come to Jesus even now just as he is, sinful, helpless, dependent, and take hold of His merits and accept His righteousness which accomplishes everything. This is how faith is accounted righteousness. Thus from the heart--trusting wholly in the merits of Christ-- man believes unto righteousness.

sky

[Guest]

That goes along with what I just read by A.T. Jones:

And all "they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." All they who, excluding--yea, repudiating--all works, plans, devices, and efforts, of their own, depend in utter helplessness upon the word of God only to accomplish what that word says--these are they which be of faith and are blessed with faithful Abraham with the righteousness of God.

O, "understanding how to exercise faith: this is the science of the gospel"! And the science of the gospel is the science of sciences. Who would not strain every nerve to understand it?

[Guest]

When Abraham and Sarah had cleared themselves of all the scheme of unbelief which had produced Ishmael and had stood upon faith alone--dependence on the word of God alone--Isaac, the true child of the promise, was born.

In harkening to the voice of Sarai (Gen. 16:1), Abram had swerved from the line of strict integrity to the word of God, from the strictness of true faith, and now that he had returned to the word only, to true faith, he must be tested before it could be certainly said of him that his faith was counted for righteousness.

He had trusted the naked word of God as against Ishmael and had obtained Isaac, the true child of the promise of God. And now, having obtained Isaac, the question must be determined whether he would trust the naked word of God as against even Isaac himself.

Accordingly, God said to Abraham, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Abraham had received Isaac from God by trusting the word of God only. Isaac alone was the seed promised by the word of the Lord. After Isaac was born, God had confirmed the word by declaring, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Gen. 21:12. And now came the word of God, Take thy son, thine only son Isaac, and offer him for a burnt offering.

God had declared to Abraham, Thy seed shall be as th stars of heaven for multitude. "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." "In Isaac shall thy seed be called," and now, Offer Isaac for a burnt offering!

But, if Isaac is offered for a burnt offering, if Isaac is burned up, what will become of the promise of the blessing of all nations in him? What will become of the promise, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven innumerable? Yet there stood the word, Offer Isaac for a burnt offering. Abraham had trusted the word of God only, as against Ishmael, but this is more than trusting the word of God as against Isaac--it is trusting the word of God as against the word of God!

And Abraham did it, hoping against hope. God had said: Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven; In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Offer Isaac for a burnt offering. Abraham did not insist that God should "harmonize these passages." It was all sufficient for him to know that the statements were all the word of God. Knowing this, he would trust that word, would follow that word, and would let the Lord "harmonize these passages," or "explain these texts," if any such thing were needed.

Said Abraham: God has said, Offer Isaac for a burnt offering. That I will do. God has said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." And, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven for multitude. I interfered once in the promise and hindered it till I repudiated all that I had done and came back to the word only. Then, by a miracle, God gave me Isaac, the promised seed. Now He says, Offer Isaac, the promised seed, for a burnt offering. I will do it. By a miracle God gave him at the first, and by a miracle God can restore him. Yet when I shall have offered him for a burnt offering, he will be dead, and the only miracle that can then restore him is a miracle that will bring him back from the dead. But God is able to do even that, and He will do it, for His word is spoken, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven for multitude, and In Isaac shall thy seed be called. And even the bringing back of Isaac from the dead will be to God no more than He has already done, for, as to offspring, both my body and Sarah's were as good as dead, and yet God brought forth Isaac from us. He can raise Isaac from the dead, and He will. Bless the Lord!

It was settled. He arose and took his servants and Isaac and went three days' journey "unto the place of which God had told him." And when on the third day he "saw the place afar off," "Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you." Gen. 22:5. Who will go? "I and the lad will go." And who will come again? "I and the lad will go . . . and come again to you." Abraham expected to have Isaac come back with him as certainly as that he went with him.

Abraham expected to offer Isaac for a burnt offering and expected then to see Isaac rise from the ashes and go back with him. For the word of God had gone forth, In Isaac shall thy seed be called, and, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven for multitude. And Abraham would trust that word only, that it could never fail. Heb. 11:17-19.

THIS IS FAITH. And thus "the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." James 2:23. But yet above this, "It was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, but for us also to whom it shall be imputed; if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." Rom. 4:23-25.

To trust the word of God only, to depend upon the word of God only, to depend upon the word of God, even as against the word of God--this is FAITH. This is the faith which brings the righteousness of God.

This is what it is to exercise faith. This is "what the Scripture means when urging upon us the necessity of exercising faith. And "understanding how to exercise faith," this is the science of the gospel. And the science of the gospel is the science of sciences.

A.T. Jones

RH Jan. 31, 1899

[skyblue888]

These articles are all compiled in a book called, Lessons on Faith. I have had it for many years. Excellent studies.

sky