mickbaker Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 I've always enjoyed AT Jones. Isaac foreshadowed Christ, in that he gave the type, and Christ was the anti-type. Whereas Isaac was ready to be offered, only Christ could actually accomplish the second death. In Isaac shall thy seed be... But in Christ (a son of Isaac) is redemption. Quote Our Sanctuary:Jesus
mickbaker Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 In Jacob we have our modern situation presented again. Jacob (the schemer) is presented with the choice of his father and grandfather who lied to kings to keep their stature, or he can choose the converted behavior of both their lives, and choose faith. We too have that choice. which character to keep, the inherited, or the converted? Quote Our Sanctuary:Jesus
Guest Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 It's all new to me. I've never read it. Or maybe I just never read it with the help of the Holy Spirit. Quote
jasd Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 >>Deep down inside every man, woman, and child, there is the fundamental idea of God. The man lying there will call on the Lord and be saved.<< Let’s stipulate to the above; however, would that “call on the Lord” best be described as one of ‘faith’ or one of a long-shot hope tandem despair? Should the latter obtain, his ‘salvation’ would then hinge upon ‘other than faith’, yes? Quote
Guest Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Hope and despair not withstanding, without a tiny bit of faith, he would never call on the lord for help. Quote
mickbaker Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 will there be those who "never knew the name of Christ" present on resurrection morning? If so, what name did they "call on"? Quote Our Sanctuary:Jesus
Guest Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 If there are such, and I believe there will be, they will have called on God the creator. Quote
mickbaker Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Ahh, my favorite topic. Christ must be Creator to have been my Savior, for without his death, then the world could not have changed. In HIM all the world died, in that the Creator died and took creation with Him. As Christ is standing before Pilate the crowd is crying "crucify him..." and now I too must admit, I needed Him to die. Such pain for my sake. The name above all names, has many pronunciations, sometimes in tongues we do not recognize as we speak. Quote Our Sanctuary:Jesus
mickbaker Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Sabbath rest is blessed... Quote Our Sanctuary:Jesus
teresaq Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 will there be those who "never knew the name of Christ" present on resurrection morning? If so, what name did they "call on"? Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
jasd Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (agape). Well, we’ve mentioned faith and we've mentioned hope, what then of agape love? Does faith require agape love? or would, as St Paul seems to suggest, agape love supercedes both faith and hope – allowing that that love suffice where faith [and hope] is either absent or lacking? ...mebbe the overarching condition? What exactly – is agape love? Is it salvational? If so, is it conditional as to whom that love is directed? Is agape love delineated in the 1888 message? Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger Not to but in' date=' but the 4th Angel of reference here is found in Revelation 18:1,2. Standard SDA end-times perspective is that this angel is a message adding volume and power to the messages listed under the 3 angels referred to in Revelation 14:6-12. Simple enough? Ted [/quote'] Maybe a little more technical Ted? Mark :-) Oh, Mark! You said you wanted simple! Alas! Now you are at risk for a long worded response! I seem to be a bit bipolar in this respect... :smilewink: I need a few hours to take care of a few things around the house (we're celebrating my sister's birthday tonight). I need to compile a few things and find a way to weave this answer in with the tenor I see the rest of the thread moving in. Back in a while... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (agape). Well, we’ve mentioned faith and we've mentioned hope, what then of agape love? Does faith require agape love? or would, as St Paul seems to suggest, agape love supercedes both faith and hope – allowing that that love suffice where faith [and hope] is either absent or lacking? ...mebbe the overarching condition? What exactly – is agape love? Is it salvational? If so, is it conditional as to whom that love is directed? Is agape love delineated in the 1888 message? I would say quickly here that agape love is the fundamental driving motive of the 1888 message.... Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
skyblue888 Posted September 13, 2009 Posted September 13, 2009 "Agape" love is the gift that we, through our connection with Christ, are to receive, to reveal, and to impart: it is the hoarded love of eternity. It is God Himself through Christ by the Third Person of the Godhead: the fullness of divine light and love and power. "When God gave His Son to our world, He endowed human beings with imperishable riches, riches compared with which the treasured wealth of men since the world began is nothingness. Christ came to the earth and stood before the children of men with the hoarded love of eternity, and this is the treasure that we, through our connection with Him, are to receive, to reveal, and to impart." Ministry of Healing, p.37. This "hoarded love of eterity" Christ diffuses through the whole being. It is a vitalizing power. Every vital part, the brain, the heart, the nerves, it touches with healing. By it the highest energies of the being are roused to activity; it frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces; with it come serenity and composure; it implants in the soul, joy that nothing earthly can destroy, joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy! See Ministry of Healing, p.115. This gift is worthy of Christ's greatness and Royalty and it brings all other blessings in its train. It is the gift that cannot be excelled! This is the "agape" love flashing from the cross of Calvary. This is the love that God has for every soul, the love that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us through faith in the merits of Jesus Christ. "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, vol.5, p.744. This is the love which is the fulfilment of the law. Rom.13:10. Nothing short of the hoarded love of eternity, the fullness of divine light and love and power! This is the third angel's message of the righteousness of Christ by faith for "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." M.B.18. The fourth angel's message gives added power to that message. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
jasd Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Re: 1 Cor 13:13 Okay guys, I believe St Paul was referring to our faith, our hope, our agape/charity – not Gd’s. My question, I suppose, is – does the ‘1888 theme’ opine with 1 Corinthians 13:13 in mind? or does it forward faith as the be-all and end-all... Quote: Quote:jasd What exactly – is agape love? Quote
skyblue888 Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Re: 1 Cor 13:13 Okay guys, I believe St Paul was referring to our faith, our hope, our agape/charity – not Gd’s. My question, I suppose, is – does the ‘1888 theme’ opine with 1 Corinthians 13:13 in mind? or does it forward faith as the be-all and end-all... Quote: Quote:jasd What exactly – is agape love? "Agape" love is the gift that we, through our connection with Christ, are to receive, to reveal, and to impart: it is the hoarded love of eternity. It is God Himself through Christ by the Third Person of the Godhead: the fullness of divine light and love and power. "When God gave His Son to our world, He endowed human beings with imperishable riches, riches compared with which the treasured wealth of men since the world began is nothingness. Christ came to the earth and stood before the children of men with the hoarded love of eternity, and this is the treasure that we, through our connection with Him, are to receive, to reveal, and to impart." Ministry of Healing, p.37. This "hoarded love of eterity" Christ diffuses through the whole being. It is a vitalizing power. Every vital part, the brain, the heart, the nerves, it touches with healing. By it the highest energies of the being are roused to activity; it frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces; with it come serenity and composure; it implants in the soul, joy that nothing earthly can destroy, joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy! See Ministry of Healing, p.115. This gift is worthy of Christ's greatness and Royalty and it brings all other blessings in its train. It is the gift that cannot be excelled! This is the "agape" love flashing from the cross of Calvary. This is the love that God has for every soul, the love that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us through faith in the merits of Jesus Christ. "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, vol.5, p.744. This is the love which is the fulfilment of the law. Rom.13:10. Nothing short of the hoarded love of eternity, the fullness of divine light and love and power! This is the third angel's message of the righteousness of Christ by faith for "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." M.B.18. The fourth angel's message gives added power to that message. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
jasd Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 Quote: Quote:jasd What exactly – is agape love? The reason I ask – is that there is such a paucity of its use in Ancient and Classical Greek that – its Testamental meaning has almost to be inferred, as well endued. I suppose that may account for the KJV’s translation – “charity”. I believe that ‘charity’ is a virtue both recognized and practiced by the heathen, the secular, as well Xtian and others. I think the various phileo, storge, eros aspects of Greek love are inherently pretty well defined; whereas, agape is more ambiguous. Questions arise; such as, does agape spring from the heart, the intellect, or from ‘bowels of mercy’? and, can agape love, all things considered and however defined, be more salvific – than even faith? Quote
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 I would say no it can't be more salvific than faith, but if you don't have faith you won't have agape love. It comes from God. Quote
jasd Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 >>I would say no it can't be more salvific than faith,<< 1 Cor 13:13 ...faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (agape). "the greatest"? greater than faith? >>...but if you don't have faith you won't have agape love.<< "Faith cometh by hearing...", no hearing, no faith, yes? >>...agape love.<< So, what is it? Quote
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 It says charity is the best, and I guess that's true, but if you don't have any faith in God, or a spiritual relationship with God, the other things will be minimal. AGAPE' 1. the love of God or Christ for humankind. 2. the love of Christians for other persons, corresponding to the love of God for humankind. 3. unselfish love of one person for another without sexual implications; brotherly love. Quote
oldsailor29 Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 The only way it will make sense to me is accepting that of faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest. I just do not see how anyone could possibly love God and not have faith in Him. And of course, I do not see how anyone could have love and faith, and not have hope. Love is love, and there is only one kind. I don't care how many people have parsed their Greek to find more than one kind of love. That's just another word game which doesn't mean very much. We have another English word for sexual implications without love, lust. And sex isn't that important. I wouldn't be surprised if sex is replaced with something much better. Getting overly involved in separating different kinds of love isn't important, because where it really matters love is one thing. We are saved by faith, but there is no salvation without love. Those who have faith also have love, because love is the foundation of faith. And people who love God don't even realize when they are serving Him. And to them He will say come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you. They have worked in the Lord's vineyard without even knowing it. How is that so? Because there is all kinds of jobs in the Lord's vineyard. Not everybody can be preachers teachers, healers, and evangelists. There are other positions. The whole world is His vineyard. The need for workers is comprehensive. When we dedicate ourselves to Him, he provides us with our mission. Sometimes that mission is the same thing we were doing before conversion, but it is different afterward. We are doing whatever the Lord wants us to do now. Like David, we are servants after God's own heart. And we go to work every day, in the factories, mills, presses, on farms, construction sites, in governments, and services and many other things. And when God wants us to do something else in His vineyard, we go do that, and in so doing we are serving the Lord, doing that which He has provided for us to do, and we are in His service just as much as healers, preachers, teachers and evangelists. And in doing our daily jobs, we are feeding the hungry, watering the thirsty, and taking in strangers, following Jesus without even knowing it. And the Lord will say to us, inherit the kingdom prepared for you. I believe this is true, and the implications should change our attitudes and our lives. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
skyblue888 Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 Wow oldsailor, that was a mouth ful of wisdom. Thank you. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
jasd Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 >>Getting overly involved in separating different kinds of love isn't important, because where it really matters love is one thing.<< Okay, disregarding phileo, storge, and eros, and not disregarding Richard Holbrook’s proffer in the above post – how is agape love actually, intrinsically defined? My question still obtains; that is, does agape love spring from the heart, the intellect, or from bowels of mercy, as it were – compassion. The sort of compassion that is foundational to Buddhism, for instance... >>We are saved by faith, but there is no salvation without love. Those who have faith also have love, because love is the foundation of faith.<< I’d say the Thief on the Cross manifested more hope than he did either faith or love; yet, he was assured of salvation and that very day, in fact, found him in Paradise – per the assurance of Jesus Christ. >>When we dedicate ourselves to Him, he provides us with our mission.<< The question arose as to salvation as it obtained to the dying... no time for dedication, no time for life mission – just dead. The issue is one of immediacy. >>I believe this is true, and the implications should change our attitudes and our lives.<< It weighed heavily upon my mother as she awaited death. Somehow (I cannot imagine how!), she’d got it into her head that ‘sister White’ had said that if we had not won anyone to Jesus Christ (my mother knew of no one who came to Jesus Christ because of her efforts) – we’re likened to the unfaithful steward and denied our crowns. Imagine! We held an intensive Bible Study re the implications of the following text. 1 Sam 30:24 For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike. We concluded that all of her sacrifices made to the .Org throughout her life, together with all her ‘ bits of copper’, her “tarrying”, as it were – ensured that she “parted alike” with the righteous workers of the .Org who depended upon her contributions as well as those of others. Moreover, I assured her that I would find Jesus Christ and be her ‘star in her crown’. (does Holy Writ even mention ‘stars in crowns’?) Gd gave her peace of heart and of mind. She is now with her Redeemer Gd. Quote
Guest Posted September 16, 2009 Posted September 16, 2009 <>I’d say the Thief on the Cross manifested more hope than he did either faith or love; yet, he was assured of salvation and that very day, in fact, found him in Paradise – per the assurance of Jesus Christ.<> Even Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. If you put the comma in the right place it is consistent with the rest of the Bible, and reads thusly: I'm telling you today, you will be with me in paradise. Quote
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