The Heart of the 1888 Message

[Guest]

The thief had enough faith to ask Jesus for salvation.

[jasd]

>>Even Jesus didn't go to paradise that day.<<

Oh, contraire. Writ is emphatic.

>>If you put the comma in the right place...<< [/ed.jasd]

??

>>...it is consistent with the rest of the Bible, and reads thusly:

I'm telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.<<

Oh, contraire; it becomes dogmatic.

James Strong lists [ a recorded] seventy-three times in the Gospels as Jesus Christ having used the signature “Verily, I say unto you,” or one of its variances, such as, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee,” with nar’ a demur from the .Org - except in this one instance. It is exegetically hubristic to assert that in the one instance of Luke 23:43 – Jesus Christ departed from His signature phraseology to emphasize the pause – elsewhere in the 'signature' sentence than as was His manner. Moreover, as you propose –

it suffers linguistically. It is obvious that Jesus Christ was speaking “today”. It is grammatically incorrect and superfluous for The Word to make that redundancy.

[skyblue888]

But He was not "today" in paradise for the simple reason that He did not ascend to heaven until after His resurrection for on the resurrection morning He said to Mary Magdeleine not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to Heaven.

sky

[jasd]

>>The thief had enough faith to ask Jesus for salvation.<<

As I recall, the Thief asked to be remembered; no indication in text that he was cognizant of the issue of 'Salvation'.

There seems to have been made manifest a 'lucky-lucky' sort of hope or desparation.

What the Thief does seem to have done is declared (or confessed) Jesus Christ - Lord.

"Whosoever confesseth me before men, him will I also confess before my Father." [/paraphrased]

[jasd]

>>He had not yet ascended to Heaven.<<

"Heaven" and "Paradise" are two separate things.

Paradise is of Persian origin and represents but a small part of the whole. It might be likened today to an arboretum - such as may have been Eden.

Paradise was a well-known concept during Jesus Christ's time.

[Guest]

But He was not "today" in paradise for the simple reason that He did not ascend to heaven until after His resurrection for on the resurrection morning He said to Mary Magdeleine not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to Heaven.

sky

Yes and he stayed some days after that before he went back to heaven.

Jn 20:26

[Guest]

There might be a place called paradise in Persia. but the real one is in heaven.

[jasd]

>>There might be a place called paradise in Persia. but the real one is in heaven.<<

Exactly, in heaven - not heaven.

[Guest]

Oh Please. To be IN heaven you would have to go TO heaven.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

But He was not "today" in paradise for the simple reason that He did not ascend to heaven until after His resurrection for on the resurrection morning He said to Mary Magdeleine not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to Heaven.

sky

Yes and he stayed some days after that before he went back to heaven.

Jn 20:26

"Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. Christ was to complete His work, and fulfill His pledge to "make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." Isa. 13:12. All power in heaven and on earth was given to the Prince of Life, and He returned to His followers in a world of sin, that He might impart to them of His power and glory. While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept." D.A.790.

sky

[oldsailor29]

yes well, after all the nit picking over the comma, it might be well to note that there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts. Also worthy of note is the possibility that Jesus meant "today" in a more general sense of time, since there is no evidence that the thief actually died that very day. Most people who were crucified lingered on their crosses for several days. This is one factor which led to the speculation, as early as the first century, that Jesus had not actually died. That is another thing for which faith is needed.

Aside from that, the salvation of the thief on the cross clearly establishes the fact that anyone can be saved. In his experience we can easily see that the Holy Spirit can influence anyone to become followers of Jesus. The ease with which God can manipulate human minds is also clearly illustrated in Exodus, as He influenced the pharaoh's mind repeatedly. Our desire for a relationship with God is given to us by the Holy Spirit, as is the power to serve Him.

[Tom Wetmore]

Jasd does have a valid point about the meaning of the word "paradise". You are correct that Adventists needlessly get hung up on the nonexistent punctuation when it was the meaning of the word that should have been better understood. Here is the what is understood of the original Greek word:

Quote:

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven

The word was used euphemistically to refer to death. The Jews were no more united on the state of the dead than Christians are today. Pretty much the range of ideas we have today is what could be found among Jews. And Jesus didn't seem burdened to correct their thinking about the state of the dead or resolve this issue. (Remember his telling of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.) Perhaps he reflected the Divine reality that death was not the end of all things but merely a segue to new life. Jesus overcame the human end in death and brought new life to us as a result.(Recall Jesus' words about a seed dying to bring forth new life...) And similarly he most frequently referred to death as a time of sleep, a time of refreshing and rest from the burdens and work of this life, not unlike spending time resting and relaxing in the park or paradise. It was the final Sabbath rest, a day in paradise.

[skyblue888]

yes well, after all the nit picking over the comma, it might be well to note that there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts. Also worthy of note is the possibility that Jesus meant "today" in a more general sense of time, since there is no evidence that the thief actually died that very day. Most people who were crucified lingered on their crosses for several days. This is one factor which led to the speculation, as early as the first century, that Jesus had not actually died. That is another thing for which faith is needed.

Aside from that, the salvation of the thief on the cross clearly establishes the fact that anyone can be saved. In his experience we can easily see that the Holy Spirit can influence anyone to become followers of Jesus. The ease with which God can manipulate human minds is also clearly illustrated in Exodus, as He influenced the pharaoh's mind repeatedly. Our desire for a relationship with God is given to us by the Holy Spirit, as is the power to serve Him.

"Yet the priests and rulers were not at rest. They had carried out their purpose in putting Christ to death; but they did not feel the sense of victory they had expected. Even in the hour of their apparent triumph, they were harassed with doubts as to what would next take place. They had heard the cry, "It is finished." "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit." John 19:30; Luke 23:46. They had seen the rocks rent, and had felt the mighty earthquake, and they were restless and uneasy.

They had been jealous of Christ's influence with the people when living; they were jealous of Him even in death. They dreaded the dead Christ more, far more, than they had ever feared the living Christ. They dreaded to have the attention of the people directed any further to the events attending His crucifixion. They feared the results of that day's work. Not on any account would they have had His body remain on the cross during the Sabbath. The Sabbath was now drawing on, and it would be a violation of its sanctity for the bodies to hang upon the cross. So, using this as a pretext, the leading Jews requested Pilate that the death of the victims might be hastened, and their bodies be removed before the setting of the sun. D.A.771.

sky

[Guest]

yes well, after all the nit picking over the comma, it might be well to note that there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts.

Yes I know. That is why it was so easy for translators who held a certain belief to put it in the wrong place

As far as understanding the word "paradise" I don't see where we are that far off. It generally means heaven, right?

[phkrause]

And not only that Richard, Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father. He walk with a couple of people to emaus, he went to see the disciples, and I believe it was about 30 or 40 days before he left to go back to heaven to finish his work. So it seems pretty obvious where that comma should go and what he meant.

pk

[jasd]

>>Oh Please. To be IN heaven you would have to go TO heaven.<<

Indeed! please... In this instance, the distinction is difference.

So, where is this "heaven" you cite in the above? is is small or large, encompassing or restricted? Whilst Gd is omnipresent does He leave any part of this "heaven"? Does it have areas different one from the other, etc?

[Woody]

Are we talking about the 1st heaven ... the 2nd heaven ... or the 3rd heaven? It does make a difference. We need to establish our terminology.

[Guest]

And not only that Richard, Mary saw Jesus right after he rose, and told her not to touch him yet, because he still had to go to the father. He walk with a couple of people to emaus, he went to see the disciples, and I believe it was about 30 or 40 days before he left to go back to heaven to finish his work. So it seems pretty obvious where that comma should go and what he meant.

pk

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: Jhn 20:17

That's right and it proves that Jesus had not already been to heaven. He layed in the tomb three days. So like I said: Even Jesus didn't go to heaven that day. There is no halfway point called paradise, if there is I would like to see evidence from scripture.

[Guest]

The Father is in the third heaven. That is already established.

[oldsailor29]

Are we talking about the 1st heaven ... the 2nd heaven ... or the 3rd heaven? It does make a difference. We need to establish our terminology.

I don't think we need to speak in terms of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven. Those terms are part of ancient cosmology, and have nothing to do with our theology, except where Bible writers wrote in those terms.

When someone dies, it makes no difference to them at all if they are immediately resurrected, or if they sleep for a million years. The resurrection still seems immediate to them. Or maybe it will seem like they have rested over the Sabbath, and are being resurrected on the first day of the rest of their lives. I don't know. Who does?

[Woody]

Check out 6 BC 920

[oldsailor29]

Check out 6 BC 920

yup, third heaven is the abode of God.

But if we are going to speak in terms of ancient cosmology on this, don't we need to think in terms of the flat earth and the cosmic mountain, and the temple on top of the cosmic mountain, which is also the temple in the third heaven? I don't know if it is safe to mix our way of thinking with the ancient way.

I mean, if we went back to ancient Jerusalem and asked the high priest if there was an actual sanctuary in heaven, he would probably look at us as if we were crazy as he pointed to the sanctuary and said, yes, there it is right there. Their concept of time and space differed from ours. Their time went in cycles. Now, to them was the same as some time in the past, and some time in the future. The most holy place in the temple was the same to them as the most holy place in the abode of God. It had to be so. God's presence was there. I guess what I am saying is, it is okay to interpret in this manner, which is using the historical and grammatical methods, but I'm not sure we will get correct interpretations by mixing these methods with the proof text or systematic methods.

[jasd]

>>"Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. […] While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept." D.A.790.<<

Where in Writ do the above find their parallel or correspondence? Except for a bit of the scripturally verifiable in the ellipted segment, I suggest that unless the above pull quotes can find synonymy in Holy Writ – they may be likened to whole cloth. Imho

[jasd]

>>yes well, after all the nit picking over the comma,<<

It is no less than careless to neglect the specific.

>>…it might be well to note that there was no punctuation in the original manuscripts.<<

But there remains the sense of passage, as well the precedents.

>>Also worthy of note is the possibility that Jesus meant "today" in a more general sense of time, since there is no evidence that the thief actually died that very day.<<

Should the Thief had had his legs broken in mid-afternoon, it can be safely assumed that he died shortly thereafter. That was the intent of leg-breaking for the crucified, that is, a quickened death from asphyxiation.

>>Aside from that, the salvation of the thief on the cross clearly establishes the fact that anyone can be saved.<<

A worthy note.

[jasd]

>>That is why it was so easy for translators who held a certain belief to put it in the wrong place<<

Especially those of a peculiar inclination?

>>As far as understanding the word "paradise" I don't see where we are that far off. It generally means heaven, right?<<

Was Eden earth?