End time "perfection".

[Woody]

Mrs. White describes the experience of the saints during the time of Jacob's trouble as having "a deep sense of their shortcomings, and as they review their lives, their hopes will sink. . . . If the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them. . . they would be overwhelmed, despair would cut off their faith. . . . But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they will have no concealed wrongs to reveal" (Patriarchs and Prophets, 202, italics supplied).

As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness will be severely tested. . . . They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. (The Great Controversy, 618)

Speaking of the saints in the time of trouble, Mrs. White writes:

Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions . . . and even if they endure the test, they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected, they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. (Ibid., 622)

It was by self surrender and confiding faith that Jacob gained what he had failed to gain by conflict in his own strength. . . . Thus it will be with those who live in the last days. As dangers surround them, and despair seizes upon the soul, they must depend solely upon the merits of the atonement. . . . In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. (Patriarchs and Prophets, 202, 203)

Two facts come clear from Mrs. White's statements: first, even some of the saints will find themselves lacking in faith after probation closes which will create for them greater anguish and conflict. But lack of faith belongs to a state of sin. "Lack of love and faith are the great sins of which God's people are now guilty." (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, 475). Certainly lack of love and faith do not belong to a sinless state. For this lack of faith was an essential aspect of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Obviously this very condition described by Mrs. White denies the claim that the saints will have reached sinless perfection. If the saints are really sinless, and free from what some call "original sin," how is it possible for them to reveal such inadequacy in faith? Such a claim is nowhere in the purview of Mrs. White's statements at all. The issue she sets forth has to do with "unconfessed sins," "concealed wrongs."

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org

[Musicman1228]

Redwood,

Please help me out; I have not been able to find a description of the time of Jacobs trouble anywhere in either Daniel or Revelation. Where in Bible prophecy are the citations for the time of Jacobs trouble? Thanks.

[teresaq]

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

[wayfinder]

teresaq: Are you saying that Jer 30 has a future application, if so then could you explain the context of restoration of Israel and Judah, from captivity to the promised land, also the fact that God promises to raise up David to be king over them.

[Guest]

That's Bible prophecy all right.

[BobRyan]

Mrs. White describes the experience of the saints during the time of Jacob's trouble as having "a deep sense of their shortcomings, and as they review their lives, their hopes will sink. . . . If the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them. . . they would be overwhelmed, despair would cut off their faith. . . . But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they will have no concealed wrongs to reveal" (Patriarchs and Prophets, 202, italics supplied).

As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness will be severely tested. . . . They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. (The Great Controversy, 618)

Speaking of the saints in the time of trouble, Mrs. White writes:

Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions . . . and even if they endure the test, they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected, they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. (Ibid., 622)

It was by self surrender and confiding faith that Jacob gained what he had failed to gain by conflict in his own strength. . . . Thus it will be with those who live in the last days. As dangers surround them, and despair seizes upon the soul, they must depend solely upon the merits of the atonement. . . . In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. (Patriarchs and Prophets, 202, 203)

Two facts come clear from Mrs. White's statements: first, even some of the saints will find themselves lacking in faith after probation closes which will create for them greater anguish and conflict. But lack of faith belongs to a state of sin. "Lack of love and faith are the great sins of which God's people are now guilty." (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, 475). Certainly lack of love and faith do not belong to a sinless state. For this lack of faith was an essential aspect of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Obviously this very condition described by Mrs. White denies the claim that the saints will have reached sinless perfection. If the saints are really sinless, and free from what some call "original sin," how is it possible for them to reveal such inadequacy in faith? Such a claim is nowhere in the purview of Mrs. White's statements at all. The issue she sets forth has to do with "unconfessed sins," "concealed wrongs."

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org

Redwood -- that link only goes to the main page of the Adventist BRI not to any article.

I saw all of that recently in an old old "old" paper written by Edward Heppenstall.

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/perfection%20Heppenstall.htm

His logic and reasonging in that document were atrocious as well as denying both scripture and Ellen White's statements on the subject.

Key points for the reader.

1. NO statement quoted above shows Ellen White saying that after the close of probation some of the "saints will find themselves lacking in faith after probation " - yet Heppenstall's article proceeded AS IF they had found such a quote -- when none was ever produced in the article. (How facinating that they did not think the reader would "notice").

2. There is a quote about those who "exercise but little FAITH NOW" but there is no quote stating that those saints would also "exercise little faith in the time of the Latter Rain" or that they would be forced to "continue to exercise little faith after the close of probation" -- all such imagined extensions simply were not to be found -- so Heppenstall simply "inserted the language" into his own comments after the actual quotes. How odd.

3. Ellen White describes the cases of those who would find themsevles confessing new sins after the Mediatorial and Intercessory work of Christ ends at the close of probation. She predicted only failure in that quote. Somehow Heppenstall brought himself to completely ignore the glaringly obvious point there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

A key point in Heppenstall's document quoted in the OP is that he admitted that Christ's intercessory and mediatorial work in the Heavenly sanctuary - so central in SDA doctrine to the subject of obtaining forgiveness of sins and the benefits of the atonment (see believe #23/of-27 or #24/of-28) ENDS at the close of probation.

Even after Christ's work of intercession ceases and all cases have been decided God is not one step removed from us. Rather is He closer than He has ever been. If God's righteousness in Christ is available, then so is His saving grace. The implication that Christ is somehow, by the cessation of His mediatorial ministry, standing in a different relation to His people, is false.

[BobRyan]

I have a more detailed quote-response writeup on Heppenstall's article above but did not want to weigh down this thread with that material unless there is some interest in exactly how far off into left field Heppenstall was taking the church back in the 50's.

George Knight's book documents the skewed direction that Heppenstall set for the church historically in Knight's book "Search for Identity".

George Knight pages 145-152, and 171-181.

Look at Search for Identity page 145-152 to see what George Knight thinks was left behind with Andreason. (See point #2 on 145). P171-181 (171-172 against final generation and sinless or perfection or “cease to sin”).

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Appreciate your comments on this Bob.

[BobRyan]

Redwood -

You are welcome. The bottom line is that our theology evolved over time since Heppenstall's reign in the 50's and 60's and now the church theology is almost 100% in line with Heppenstall's ideas proposed in the 50's.

But a careful review of that key paper of his - shows just how far his conclusions strayed from his sources.

Lots more info if you want it.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Bring it on. I find it interesting. Appreciate it.

[Guest]

As my friends across the pond would say: Heppenstall is a bloody heretic.

[Woody]

As my friends across the pond would say: Heppenstall is a bloody heretic.

Oh well .... no body's "perfect". We can't all meet your criteria.

[BobRyan]

1. In the first part of Heppenstall's paper he discusses two words that are often translated "perfect" or "mature" or "complete" - Teleios and Katartizo. An interesting introduction and done "as if" the argument for not sinning after the close of probation had been derived from "The bible says the saints must be perfect after the close of probation so if that word means we can sin then we can continue to sin -- but if not then we must stop sinning".

However whenever Heppenstall lists the actual reasons used for the argument that we must "stop sinning" he seems to be careful to accurately state that the argument is always made by appeals to the fact that Christ's mediatorial and intercessory works stops at the close of probation. (A point he innexplicably agree with in his efforts to get out of the problem that causes )

Conclusion -- the first part of that paper is simply a rabbit trail.

2. He evaluates Rev 22:11 "Let him who is holy be holy still" and argues that this is a fixed or permanent decision reached by the saints. However he is still dancing around the problem. The actual problem arises by noticing the He 4,8 and 9 connection between Christ as our High Priest in the Sanctuary in heaven - and our access to "forgiveness" through His intercessory priestly ministry that applies the benefits of that blood atonement to our sins. A point summarized in 1John 2:1 "If anyone sins We have an advocate with the Father" - who is the "one mediator between God and man" as Paul says to Timothy. All of that comes to a screeching halt when in Rev 15 we see that the sanctuary service in heaven shuts down so that the plagues can take place.

Heppenstall's argument conveniently ignores all of that though he does seem to admit that Christ's role as mediator, and His role as intercessor ends at the close of probation.

3. Heppenstall makes the argument that "probation closes for some every day" but does not really solve the problem for his argument in so saying. Anyone in the past who died as a saint - had their probation closed at death -- the point for the current topic however is entirely moot (as to whether they would be sinning after that close of probation point). They wont.

As for the wicked - for many of them probation closes at death but in some cases while they still live -- however the issue of whether a wicked person continues to sin after their probation closes is also moot.

The UNIQUE problem is the case of a saint whose probation closes and YET they LIVE and then Christ STOPS the mediation of his atoning blood sacrifice while they still LIVE. That is a hugely unique scenario -- how odd that Heppenstall simply does a little handwaiving about "people of the past" whose probations closed for some reason!!

What misdirection!

4. Segmenting Grace. Heppenstall introduces the reader to the idea of slicing up grace (saving grace, sustaining grace") and then imagines that anyone who notices the unique case above about sin having to stop for the saints at the C.O.P must be an arrogance on the part of the one noticing that problem, and a claim to be able to selfishly "do with some grace".

However in doing that Heppenstall is simply "gaming the point". It is a parlor trick. If "carving up grace" were really the goal - we could slice it into

a. Prevenient Grace - the grace that convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16).

b. Saving Grace -- the grace that enables the lost to find repentance and forgiveness and to "choose Christ". To understand their lost condition and to choose to die - to choose Christ, to be born-again John 3 ... to be the new creation of 2Cor 5.

c. Retoring Grace - 1John 2:1 for the saved saint who has sinned and seeks repentance through our High Priestly Advocate in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

d. Sustaining grace - Romans 8 and Rom 2:6 "persevering in doing good".

Then having found all those segments - we could falsely "accuse" anyone who claimed to have the "assurance of salvation" of selfishly wanting to "deny the continued need for prevenient grace and saving grace". Nice game -- but who would take that argument seriously!

Nobody??!!

Then why is Heppenstall engaged in playing that game with us?

in Christ,

Bob

[oldsailor29]

Mrs. White denies the claim that the saints will have reached sinless perfection. If the saints are really sinless, and free from what some call "original sin," how is it possible for them to reveal such inadequacy in faith? Such a claim is nowhere in the purview of Mrs. White's statements at all. The issue she sets forth has to do with "unconfessed sins," "concealed wrongs."

I believe EGW's statements about reaching for perfection and reaching perfection are only in the context of character building, and have nothing to do with original sin and our sinful natures.

[BobRyan]

When we looked at Heppenstall's article from the OP we found no statement at all from Ellen White stating that the saints had any lack of faith or sin at all after the close of probation.

Ellen White makes some strong "cease to sin" arguments for the saints as the path that is fully available to them in ALL ages.

Thus she directly contradicts Heppenstall's claims that the born-again saint's "sinful state" includes continued slavery to sinING. And she makes this case about sins and sinning in general - in all ages not simply a special ability at the end of time. Thus Heppenstall directly opposes Ellen White's view of what he calls the saints 'sinful state'.

Quote:

Review and Herald – Mar 21

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle10370.htm#1

March 21, 1912 God's Forgiving Love

Mrs. E. G. White

Let no Christian seek to excuse himself in sin on the ground that others who have claimed to follow Jesus have committed the same errors. Your sin is none the less heinous because others have been guilty; and your manifest duty is to confess your sin to Jesus Christ, your intercessor. Take the weight of your woe to no human being. You have one mediator, Jesus Christ the righteous. In contrition of soul go to him and tell all your sins. The promise is sure, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." John says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." "That ye sin not,"--here is where you bring yourself into condemnation when you continue to sin. But in the strength of Christ cease to sin. Every provision has been made that grace should abide with you, and that sin may appear to you the hateful thing it is. But if any man sin, he is not to give himself up to despair, and talk like a man who is lost to Christ. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." {RH, March 21, 1912 par. 1}

Signs of Times July 20

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle11041.htm#1

Let us arise in faith, and press closer to Jesus. Let us rejoice in his love. We may obtain the most precious victories. There is help for us in God. Let us grasp the promises, and look to Calvary. Jesus died to save us from sin; then let us cease to sin, and open the heart wide, that he may come in and abide with us. {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 5}

RH August 28, 1894 para 4

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle09366.htm#1

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. {RH, August 28, 1894 par. 4}

PERIODICALS/RH - The Review and Herald/April 24, 1900 Christian Perfection. - Mrs. E. G. White. -

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle09692.htm#1

BOOKS/AG - God's Amazing Grace (1973)/Chap. 227 - Partakers of Christ's Nature

We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . {AG 235.4}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. . . . In Him there is inexhaustible fullness. . . . {AG 235.5}

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...pter01746.htm#1

"The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. He did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. {FLB 23.3}

We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}

Maranatha 224

BOOKS/Mar - Maranatha (1976)/Chap. 216 - Christ Our Helper and Redeemer

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter02778.htm

Adam and Eve in Eden were placed under most favorable circumstances. . . . They were without the condemnation of sin. . . . The Author of their existence was their teacher. But they fell beneath the power and temptations of the artful foe. Four thousand years had Satan been at work against the government of God, and he had obtained strength and experience from determined practice. Fallen men had not the advantages of Adam in Eden. They had been separating from God for four thousand years. The wisdom to understand, and power to resist, the temptations of Satan had become less and less, until Satan seemed to reign triumphant in the earth. Appetite and passion, the love of the world and presumptuous sins, were the great branches of evil out of which every species of . . . corruption grew. {Mar 224.2}

Our lives may seem a tangle; but as we commit ourselves to the wise Master Worker, He will bring out the pattern of life and character that will be to His own glory. And that character which expresses the glory--character--of Christ, will be received into the Paradise of God. {Mar 224.3}

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.4}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Mrs. White denies the claim that the saints will have reached sinless perfection. If the saints are really sinless, and free from what some call "original sin," how is it possible for them to reveal such inadequacy in faith? Such a claim is nowhere in the purview of Mrs. White's statements at all. The issue she sets forth has to do with "unconfessed sins," "concealed wrongs."

I believe EGW's statements about reaching for perfection and reaching perfection are only in the context of character building, and have nothing to do with original sin and our sinful natures.

Exactly!

[BobRyan]

And so my previous post establishes the Romans 6 view that slavery to sinning is NOT the "promise of the Gospel" but rather the Gospel promise is FREEDOM from that slavery to sinnING and that has been the promise of the ONE Gospel in all ages. Nothing specific about the close of probation.

So now here is the aspect that IS unique - that is specific to the close of probation.

Quote:

When Jesus rises up in the most holy place, and lays off His mediatorial garments, and clothes Himself with the garments of vengeance in place of the priestly attire, the work for sinners will be done. . . . The probation of all closes when the pleading for sinners is ended and the garments of vengeance are put on. {FLB 215.3}

The case of every soul will have been decided, and there will be no atoning blood to cleanse from sin. . . . Then the restraining Spirit of God is withdrawn from the earth. {FLB 215.4}

Chapter XXXV. - The Third Message Closed.

I was pointed down to the time when the third angel's message was closing. The power of God had rested upon his people. They had accomplished their work, and were prepared for the trying hour before them. They had received the latter rain or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, and the living testimony had been revived. The last great warning had sounded every where, and it had stirred up and enraged the inhabitants of earth, who would not receive the message. {1SG 197.1}

I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel returned from the earth with a writer's ink-horn by his side, and reported to Jesus that his work was done, that the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised his hands upward, and with a loud voice said, It is done. And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still. {1SG 197.2}

I saw that every case was then decided for life or death. Jesus had blotted out the sins of his people. He had received his kingdom, and the atonement had been made for the subjects of his kingdom. While Jesus had been ministering in the Sanctuary, the judgment had been going on for the righteous dead, and then for the righteous living. The subjects of the kingdom were made up. The marriage of the Lamb was finished. And the kingdom, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was given to Jesus, and the heirs of salvation, and Jesus was to reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords. {1SG 197.3}

As Jesus moved out of the Most Holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon his garment, and as he left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man, and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when Jesus stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed, and Satan had the control of man. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof. The saints in that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, were living in the sight of a holy God, without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while he was in the Most Holy place, he placed back upon the originator of sin, the Devil. He must suffer the punishment of these sins. {1SG 198.1}

=============================================================

PERIODICALS/SW - The Watchman/January 15, 1907 Gifts and Offerings

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle12008.htm#1

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent efforts, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away sin, among God's people on earth. {SW, January 15, 1907 par. 4}

The sweet voice of mercy was no more to invite them. The last note of warning had been given. When the saints, and all heaven were interested for their salvation, they had no interest for themselves. Life and death had been set before them. Many desired life; but did not make any effort to obtain it. They did not choose life, and now there was no atoning blood to cleanse the sinner. No compassionate Saviour to plead for them, and cry, Spare, spare the sinner a little longer. All heaven had united with Jesus, as they heard the fearful words, It is done, It is finished. The plan of salvation had been accomplished. But few had chosen to accept the plan. And as mercy's sweet voice died away, a fearfulness and horror seized them. With terrible distinctness they hear, Too late! too late! {1SG 199.1}

I also saw many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully. {Mar 41.1}

I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of "refreshing" and the "latter rain" to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who . . . fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth . . . will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be . . . no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {Mar 41.2}

I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence. {Mar 41.3}

We are today to watch that we offend not in word or deed. . . . We must today seek God and be determined that we will not rest satisfied without His presence. We should watch and work and pray as though this were the last day that would be granted us. How intensely earnest, then, would be our life. How closely would we follow Jesus in all our words and deeds. {Mar 41.4}

GC 424

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...pter01980.htm#1

But the people were not yet ready to meet their Lord. There was still a work of preparation to be accomplished for them. Light was to be given, directing their minds to the temple of God in heaven; and as they should by faith follow their High Priest in His ministration there, new duties would be revealed. Another message of warning and instruction was to be given to the church. {GC 424.4}

Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. {GC 425.1}

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. {GC 425.2}

Repeatedly Ellen White refers to this as a "special work of purification" that takes place while Christ is still wearing His priestly garments - still engaged in His work for us as our High Priest and administering the benefits of the blood of the atonement regarding our sins.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In my previous post above I show how Ellen White details a "special work" that is to be done for and by the saints while Christ retains His intercessory and mediatorial role in heaven for us as our High Priest in the Heavenly sanctuary ..

Notice how our own belief #24 emphasizes the role of Christ as our High Priest in heaven as being so necessary for obtaining the benefits of His atoning blood that cleanses from sin. Forgiveness of sins is not possible without that ministry.

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

So in Heb 4,8,9 (as the text above points out) we see the connection between forgiveness of sins and Christ's role in the Sanctuary as our High Priest. We also see it in 1John 2:1 where John emphasizes our access to forgiveness through the role of our advocate in heaven - the one mediator between God and man as Paul speaks of Him.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

The consciousness that the sins of their past lives will be the occasion for the wicked to justify themselves in their bid to exterminate them from the face of the earth and thus gain the victory for the devil in the longstanding controversy, will be a trial of considerable proportions to the righteous, but it will not be the only burden which they will have to bear during the time of Jacob's trouble. They will also be living with the fear that they themselves had not yet been cleansed of every sin.

In order to pass through this time without a Mediator in the sanctuary above, the true people of God must be without sin, which is to pass through this time with the sanctuary closed to receiving of anymore sin of any kind whatsoever. Probation will have closed when the time of Jacob's trouble begins. This tells us that the sanctuary will have been cleansed of all the defilement which had been taken into it as a result of the confessions of God's people, and we know that the Lord will never admit any further sin into the sanctuary after its cleansing so that it becomes defiled again. Therefore any sin in anyone after the close of probation must remain within him forever; that wherever he goes, that sin must also go. Inasmuch as that sin will then be forever inseparable from him, and inasmuch as no sin can ever go into heaven, such a person cannot be numbered with the people of God at that time.

Anyone who is to be numbered as a child of God then, must be cleansed of all sin forever. But God will have a people at this time, and as surely as He will, then just as surely will that people be a sinless people. (still sinful but sinless in their characters). At that time there will be no halfway mark, no place in between righteousness and holiness. Either we will be holy or we will be unholy, righteous or unrighteous, clean or unclean. It will be at the close of probation when Jesus ends His work as Mediator for the human race that He will stand up and say, "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11,12.

Thus when probation closes there will be the two classes of people; those who are righteous and those who are unclean and unholy. The fact remains, that the people of God will be a people completely without sin during the time of Jacob's trouble and for that matter for the eternity of life, which will be theirs thereafter.

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to live in the sight of a holy God without a Mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." The Great Controversy, p.425.

These words are clear, yet there are those who hold the view that the people of God will not be cleansed from all sin until the day when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven. Sucn a view is refuted, not only by the fact of the closing of the sanctuary at the close of human probation some time prior to the actual appearing of the Saviour in the clouds of heaven, but also by the plain words of the following statement:

"We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and just the fnishing work of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us." Testimonies, Vol.2, p.355.

In no plainer words could it be shown that Jesus will not cleanse us from sin when He comes in the clouds of heaven. All such cleansing work must be done before that time. What is more, we are plainly told how much before that time this work will have to be accomplished. It will be during these hours of probation. This limits the time, then, in which this work can be done; that limitation being while probation lasts. This is to clearly say that when probation closes, if the work is not accomplished then, all opportunity for it to be completed will be forever past, and we will then have to perish in our sins.

sky

*Bob, i just took a look at your posts. Looks like we are on the same plane, right?

[skyblue888]

Thus it is made clear and plain that the righteous will have become truly and fully righteous during this period. But while it will be true in fact, it will not be known to them. In fact, they will be distressed by the terrible fear that there is still some hidden root of evil still within them during this time of fearful trouble.

A truly sinless person is a truly selfless person. A selfless person is one whose concern is not for a moment in regard to himself and what will happen to him, but he is concerned only for the cause for which he is responsible, in part or in whole, as the case may be. The believers will be, therefore, a selfless people during the time of Jacob's trouble, so the fear and the trouble which they experience will not be on any account of concern for themselves, but rather for the Lord with whose cause they are concerned.

All around them they will see the wickedness of the wicked, which will arouse within them the strongest possible desires to see the whole chapter of sin and rebellion brought to a close.

"On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end." Great Controversy, p.619.

But they will understand and know that this work of the making of an end of sins and the bringing in of everlasting righteousness cannot be accomplished unless it first will have been done in the lives of the children of God. They know that the power of Satan in the world cannot be ended until it first be ended in them. By which fact they will understand that if there is still sin in them, then the Lord cannot close the work and bring evil to its end.

It will be a time when it will appear as if the whole of God's work has once again failed under the masterful attacks of Satan. It will appear that the loud cry has come to naught, just as every other revival in the past has done. This appearance of things will be overwhelmingly convincing, that it will constitute a fearful trial to the saints of God at this time. They will know, even as we know already, that the work of God never fails because of any shortcoming on His part, but only because the people of God have come short of the full provisions of His power and might. Therefore they will be persuaded that the failure of the battle, as it appears to be in their eyes and as Satan seeks to press this conviction upon them, is the direct result of their failure to put away every sin and uncleanness.

If it would be but their own lives and interests which will be at stake, this would be but a small thing in their eyes, but they will know that the issues are far more tremendous than that. They will know that the Lord is depending on their faithfully standing by Him in this crisis so that He can finish the work and make an end of the horror of sin forever. But they will feel that they have let the Lord and His cause down just when He needed them the most. It will be from this fear and this conviction that the real agony of the time of Jacob's trouble will arise just as it was in the case of Jacob of old.

sky

[oldsailor29]

sky - I do not understand your opening statement clearly. When you write "past lives," are you speaking of some sort of reincarnation? And if not, could you tell me how knowledge of their sins will cause them to justify themselves and exterminate themselves?

The consciousness that the sins of their past lives will be the occasion for the wicked to justify themselves in their bid to exterminate them from the face of the earth and thus gain the victory for the devil in the longstanding controversy, will be a trial of considerable proportions to the righteous, but it will not be the only burden which they will have to bear during the time of Jacob's trouble. They will also be living with the fear that they themselves had not yet been cleansed of every sin.

Also, you seem to be saying that we must change our sinful natures to holy natures before Jesus comes. That we can achieve holy natures is basically perfectionism. It was the basis for the holy flesh heresy in the 19th century, and I guess it is still alive today?

However if I mistook your statements, and you actually meant that our characters will be fully developed, and you are not saying anything about our sinful natures, which I believe will remain sinful until we are changed to immortals, then we agree.

[Guest]

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to live in the sight of a holy God without a Mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." The Great Controversy, p.425.

Amen

[Woody]

Quote:

holy flesh heresy

I sure hope we aren't going back to that theory. Our prophet has already rejected that. Unless this is a new twist to an old theory.

[skyblue888]

sky - I do not understand your opening statement clearly. When you write "past lives," are you speaking of some sort of reincarnation? And if not, could you tell me how knowledge of their sins will cause them to justify themselves and exterminate themselves?

oldsailor, I was not talking about some sort of reincarnation but about their lives prior to the close of probation. And you should have read the words more carefully. It is the knowledge that the wicked will have of their past sins that will justify the wicked to exterminate the saints, urged on by Satan. I never said that it was the knowledge that the saints will have of their past sins that will justify themselves and exterminate themselves. It would make no sense at all. Isn't it amazing how one can read a statement and see the exact opposite of what was actually written or intended? hehe

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The consciousness that the sins of their past lives will be the occasion for the wicked to justify themselves in their bid to exterminate them from the face of the earth and thus gain the victory for the devil in the longstanding controversy, will be a trial of considerable proportions to the righteous, but it will not be the only burden which they will have to bear during the time of Jacob's trouble. They will also be living with the fear that they themselves had not yet been cleansed of every sin.

Also, you seem to be saying that we must change our sinful natures to holy natures before Jesus comes. That we can achieve holy natures is basically perfectionism. It was the basis for the holy flesh heresy in the 19th century, and I guess it is still alive today?

However if I mistook your statements, and you actually meant that our characters will be fully developed, and you are not saying anything about our sinful natures, which I believe will remain sinful until we are changed to immortals, then we agree.

You should have known that i meant "characters" and not "sinful natures" for I had just agreed with you in an earlier post that it was our "characters" that will be changed before the close of probation and not our "sinful natures."

In a prior post you wrote: "I believe EGW's statements about reaching for perfection and reaching perfection are only in the context of character building, and have nothing to do with original sin and our sinful natures."

I followed your post by saying "Exactly!"

hope this is clear now