End time "perfection".

[Woody]

"But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” {PK 589.1}

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

"His character will be reproduced in our nature, thus shall we bring forth fruits of the Holy Spirit - some thirty and some sixty and some an hundred." COL 60-61

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. - COL 68-69.

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

"Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ p. 62

"The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness" 1 SM 367

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright [scare] them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God." CCh 352

Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

[skyblue888]

"We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and just the fnishing work of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us." Testimonies, Vol.2, p.355

[BobRyan]

All true my friend -- all true!

The saints today are struggling. But a time will come when although they struggle and even have what Ellen White calls "severe mental anguish" and in fact will not "know they have ceased to sin" as though they had a perfect magnifier on all their actions -- they will know that they have peace with God of Romans 5:1 but will also know that they are living in the time of the plagues and so the time when there is no Mediator. They will be horrified by the thought that they might already have made a mistake they might be lost -- and yet they remain faithful to God without knowing just how their cases are resolved in heaven nor even knowing the future of whether they will yet sin again.

Their walk by faith will be in the extreme - clinging to faith in Christ though the heavens are literally falling around them.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

All true my friend -- all true!

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you Bob. You know ... it is really quite simple if one reads our prophet and studies scripture.

[skyblue888]

"Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ p. 62

How deceiving that you would use this statement for end-time events.

This is not talking about end-time events but about the time when one receives Christ as His personal Saviour.

It is the same with that other statement you quoted:

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

This is not about end-time events but about being justified at the time of the new birth.

You quoted another of my favorite statement but you skipped the ending.

"The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness" 1 SM 367

The next sentence says, "and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light."

To go from grace to grace is to go from victory to victory until the close of probation when the character of Christ is fully formed within. Then human probation will close.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

All true my friend -- all true!

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you Bob. You know ... it is really quite simple if one reads our prophet and studies scripture.

I dont think Bob is agreeing with you Red. How could he? You dont believe that our characters will be changed prior to the close of probation but at the coming of Christ. So how could Bob be agreeing with you? I believe he was only saying that the quotes you have used were true but they were not describing the experience of the people of God at the close of human probation or the time of Jacob's trouble, at least most of the quotes you cited.

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

holy flesh heresy

I sure hope we aren't going back to that theory. Our prophet has already rejected that. Unless this is a new twist to an old theory.

Red, you know I was talking about character development and not holy flesh.

Please stop making insinuations without evidence.

There are a lot of things "our prophet" wrote that you yourself said you were rejecting. For example you reject what "our prophet" stated that our characters will have to be changed prior to the close of probation and not at the coming of Christ as you have so often claimed.

sky

[Woody]

I think it is you that is rejecting that. We need to study EGW in the proper context of what she is saying. Not pick this quote and that quote and reject the clear words of our prophet.

[skyblue888]

I think it is you that is rejecting that. We need to study EGW in the proper context of what she is saying. Not pick this quote and that quote and reject the clear words of our prophet.

Rejecting what? I do not reject anything "our prophet" wrote but you, Red, reject just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

Do you not reject that statement I just quoted in which she clearly declares that our characters will have to be changed prior to the close of probation? You have stated so many times on other forums and on this forum as well that our characters will be changed at the coming of Christ.

What is it that you are saying I reject?

Do you not reject what the following statement says:

"We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and just the fnishing work of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us." Testimonies, Vol.2, p.355

[skyblue888]

During the time of Jacob's trouble, after the close of human probation... Continuation.

But while the people of God search their hearts with the closet of self-examination, they cannot bring any sin to remembrance. If the people of God were able to bring to light any unconfessed sins then, it would be impossible for them to stand in that hour.

"Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them in remembrance." The Great Controversy, p.620.

sky

[Woody]

Sky ... it is you that rejects just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

This does great harm to our church and to the message of our prophet.

I'm a member of my local Seventh day Adventist Church. Are you? I've never heard of any SDA with your kind of belief.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Perfectionism shapes the understanding of church standards that some members hold. The standards have become a useful way of defining the sinlessness that they believe they must obtain to have salvation. Often this is an unconscious unexamined belief rooted more in personality traits than in theology." Ministry Magazine Oct. 1989 Monte Sahlin

[skyblue888]

red ur so funny hehe

[LifeHiscost]

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to live in the sight of a holy God without a Mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." The Great Controversy, p.425.

Amen

This quote is quite possible as we accept the robe of Christ's righteousness. The diligent effort comes as a result of being filled with the Holy Spirit and accepting the promises of God. Imparted righteousness in the absolute will be obvious after our change and imputed righteousness on this side of the kingdom will always be needed.

Our discussions that make it appear as if their is a difference between what the Spirit of Prophecy states and what the Scriptures declare is a result of not following the advice of the Spirit of Prophecy, to lean our whole understanding of Eternal Truth on the Word, in which imputed righteousness will be seen as needed until the Scripture is no longer needed.

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:

"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."" Luke 18:9-14 NIV

Blessings!

[BobRyan]

Sky ... it is you that rejects just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

This does great harm to our church and to the message of our prophet.

I'm a member of my local Seventh day Adventist Church. Are you? I've never heard of any SDA with your kind of belief.

Has Sky said something on this thread that is out of line with the 28 FB??

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Has Redwood? It all comes down to a matter of interpretation. Accusations about one another does not help anyone's cause. Particularly the cause of God.

We are all Christians here and should be able to disagree without characterizations that someone doesn't accept truth just because they don't agree with our particular interpretation of what truth is.

I know of no one who interprets Ellen White in the same way. So a little tolerance is in order. Surely our church is big enough for that. We don't even interpret the Bible in the same way within our church. And to go further .... we don't even interpret the 28 Fundamentals the same way. So no one has a monopoly on Truth.

[Woody]

Quote:

Red,(you) reject just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

Hmmm. Really? Do I reject it ... or is it YOU that rejects it? From my view it is you that is rejecting her message. Strange how two people can view things so differently. Praise God ... His truth is not dependent upon any human interpretation. We need to rely upon His Truth. Not our own preconceived ideas.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Red,(you) reject just about everything she said and yet from time to time you try to make it appear that you are accepting her writings when the opposite is the truth.

Hmmm. Really? Do I reject it ... or is it YOU that rejects it? From my view it is you that is rejecting her message. Strange how two people can view things so differently. Praise God ... His truth is not dependent upon any human interpretation. We need to rely upon His Truth. Not our own preconceived ideas.

Red, when I say that you reject the testimonies, I am not making any accusation. I am only stating a fact. It is a fact that you keep teaching that our characters will be changed at the coming of Christ in opposition to what this clear testimony says:

"We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and just the fnishing work of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us." Testimonies, Vol.2, p.355

This statement does not need any interpretation. It states the truth plainly. Do you agree with what it says or not?

sky

[Guest]

When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. Testimonies, Vol.2, p.355

[oldsailor29]

The consciousness that the sins of their past lives will be the occasion for the wicked to justify themselves in their bid to exterminate them from the face of the earth and thus gain the victory for the devil in the longstanding controversy, will be a trial of considerable proportions to the righteous, but it will not be the only burden which they will have to bear during the time of Jacob's trouble. They will also be living with the fear that they themselves had not yet been cleansed of every sin.

Now I understand. You mean that the wicked will use past sins of the righteous as an excuse to kill them. yes, that is probably true. But when I read a new post, I don't review to old ones, and I am getting so old that I don't remember who agrees with me and who doesn't. So I usually depend on the writer for clearness. "Sins of past lives" means something different from "past sins." And the only people you mention are the wicked, and you are right, it didn't make any sense, and that's why I did not understand what you meant. But now, since you explained it, I do understand. Thank you for that.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The consciousness that the sins of their past lives will be the occasion for the wicked to justify themselves in their bid to exterminate them from the face of the earth and thus gain the victory for the devil in the longstanding controversy, will be a trial of considerable proportions to the righteous, but it will not be the only burden which they will have to bear during the time of Jacob's trouble. They will also be living with the fear that they themselves had not yet been cleansed of every sin.

Now I understand. You mean that the wicked will use past sins of the righteous as an excuse to kill them. yes, that is probably true. But when I read a new post, I don't review to old ones, and I am getting so old that I don't remember who agrees with me and who doesn't. So I usually depend on the writer for clearness. "Sins of past lives" means something different from "past sins." And the only people you mention are the wicked, and you are right, it didn't make any sense, and that's why I did not understand what you meant. But now, since you explained it, I do understand. Thank you for that.

Your welcome oldsailor. You are probably right that I could re-write that paragraph to make it more clear...

God bless,

sky

[Guest]

Hang in there oldsailor, you're going to live at least till Jesus comes.

[teresaq]

it is very easy to discuss what we must be like when Christ comes

yet be so blind and deceived

that we dont see the sin in our own lives

we swear up and down

has to be given up before heaven.

I saw that none could share the "refreshing" unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence. {Mar 254.5}

[oldsailor29]

Hang in there oldsailor, you're going to live at least till Jesus comes.

I seriously doubt that. But if I do, I will probably die then.

[Guest]

Not if everybody's going to be saved.