End time "perfection".

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Context is everything.

The first statement is talking about the historic fact that his coming was delayed.

The second statement is talking about those who say "I know this - Christ will NOT come this year, or next year, or the next year or ..." (I heard a pastor stand up and say that recently".

in Christ,

Bob [/quote']

Concerning the first statement:

Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. Matt.25:5

This indicates that He (Jesus-the Bridegroom) delayed His coming, not that it was mysteriously delayed somehow. The question is begged, "Why did He delay His coming?"

Given the context there is only one acceptable answer, and that is that His bride was not ready. If He had come at a time when the bride was not ready then there would never be a wedding. Rather than let that happen the Bridegroom postponed His coming for His bride UNTIL she could be made ready. Since this prophecy is taking about the bridesmaids NOT the bride the reason for the delay is that the bridesmaids were not ready to prepare the bride for the coming of the groom.

The SDA church thought that THEY were the bride, when in reality they were/are the bridesmaids, who at the time when the Bridegroom desired to come (1843) were unprepared and unable to get His bride ready for the marriage.

So it was not so much that the SDA church did not believe that He was coming but that they believed they were the bride when they were not. They believed the wrong thing, which cause the Bridegroom the need to delay.

Concerning the second statement:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man". Matt. 24:36-39.

James White in a paper titled "Matthew 24" made a very startling comment about the word "knows" in this text. After studying the Greek and Aramaic his understanding became that the translation should more properly have been "makes known", as in 'convey knowledge'. Therefore, he proposed that the text should actually read, "But concerning that day and hour no one "makes known", not the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only". As you can see, this would change things a lot in how we view the timing and time of the end.

I believe this to be the case. This is confirmed in Rev. 1:1 where Jesus tells John, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him . . ."

What was the only thing that Jesus Himself said that He did not know while here on earth? When He was going to come back (Matt.24:36).

So the only logical conclusion I can arrive at is that when Jesus was on earth He did not know when He was going to come back. When He went to heaven after the resurrection God the Father told Him when He would return. He gave this information to John, through the angel, who then gave it to the bondservants so they would KNOW when He was coming again.

To say that we will never know (ahead of time) when Jesus is to return is a product of faulty analysis brought on by a gross misinterpretation of a single prophecy (2300 evenings/mornings).

I will point out one other thing concerning the Matt.24:36-39 passage; according to Jesus Christ Himself just as at the time of the flood no one will know when He returns, it will catch everyone by surprise. How can this be, when there are going to be 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of wrath, and Christ coming in the clouds with lightning shining from the east unto the west, and when the graves are opened and the dead in Christ shall rise? How will the world NOT KNOW that He is coming when all during the Great Tribulation the 144,000 and the saints (five wise bridesmaids) and the two witnesses will be telling the world that He is coming and when. Are people that stupid that they will not recognize the rocks falling on them or the fact that they have received the Mark of the Beast? I don't think so. (According to Jesus, Noah did not preach a coming flood. If he had preached for 120 years as we have been told then how would the people of the world been surprised by the coming of the flood?)

The logical conclusion is that the coming that Jesus is speaking of in this passage is His coming as a thief in the night. "Night" in prophecy indicates a lack of signs and wonders, and prophetic fulfillments. When we read Matt.25:1-13 carefully we see that when the Bridegroom comes the bridesmaids are ALL asleep, and miss His coming. If this coming is the coming in the Clouds of glory then those bridesmaids SLEPT through the greatest event in earths history. This is not possible. Those 10 bridesmaids are awakened by a cry "at MIDNIGHT" saying that "The Bridegroom IS HERE, come out to meet Him". They then wake up and find that five are prepared and five are not.

If this interpretation is true (and I believe that it is) then we have been sold a bill-of-goods, by being told that we can never and will never know the day and the hour. We can and we will.

I read through this MM.

I would be a little concerned with your idea that Jesus was going to come in 1843.

As the sanctuary service does not typify this idea.

Rather that the investigative judgement has to take place first.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

I read through this MM.

I would be a little concerned with your idea that Jesus was going to come in 1843.

As the sanctuary service does not typify this idea.

Rather that the investigative judgement has to take place first.

Mark :-)

Amen

[The Searcher]

I believe you will find that EGW began stating that Christ could have come ere this two years after 1844 or thereabouts. I would suggest that the church is the cause for the delay as she seems to indicate. Looking over the subsequent history of the church, I would say that we were not ready for His coming. Out of mercy to us, He has delayed His coming.

Additionally, I would suggest that perfection is not impossible as some seem to imply. I would give as my evidence the following.

Christ could not use any power which was not available to us or Satan would have called foul. Christ had to perfect a life just as we have to perfect a life, and He did so without sin. Secondly, Jude declares the following, "Now unto Him who is able to keep us from falling and present us blameless before His throne. To the only true God and savior through Jesus Christ, our Lord." Finally, with man it is impossible but with God, all is possible. And Christ declares, "Without Him we can do nothing."

How did Christ do this? Through the same power which He availed to Himself. He declares that He only did what His Father showed Him. He surrendered Himself daily to the will of the Father, and He never departed from that will. I think we use sin as an excuse for not perfecting our characters, when God has declared that through Him we can become overcomers. God has given us the tools we need.

Trust, Prayer, Bible study, and Surrender to God, allowing Him to work in our lives will have a changing affect upon us. Surrendering our will to His working is the secret. Daily, I must give up my will and let Him do His will through me.

I would also note that a person who has achieved true perfection is the last one to know it. Daniel was declared to be perfect, yet when you read his prayer in Daniel 9, he declares himself a sinner. I would suggest that our goal is never try to be perfect in our own power, that is impossible for us, but to do the will of the Father. When we surrender completely our will, our souls, and our hearts, God will perform a work in us. We will become less dependent upon what we can do, and more dependent upon the power of God to create a new creature within. As the prophet Jeremiah quotes God, "I (God) will put my law in their heart and mind and soul." God will do the work; we are to surrender to His molding, and we will become as Christ and Daniel and all those who preceded us.

We should never say that perfection is impossible. That denies the power of God. "Now unto Him who is able, above and beyond all abilities, to do infinitely more than we ask or can imagine based upon our internal power." Rather, we should say, "through God all is possible." Surrender and trust in the power of God to put His law in our hearts and minds; let Him do His work, and we can obtain cleanness before Him and stand blameless before our God. That is what God can do for us.

We can become whole and blameless and not stumble through the power of God, not through our power. Let us not make excuses for our continual sin. God has provided a means whereby we are able to bear all trials and temptations without failure.

[Guest]

Now that was a good post. AMEN

[Musicman1228]

Now that was a good post. AMEN

Yes is was a great post, The Searcher. It is just what I have been saying all along, but Richard and others have told me that this is impossible and I am all wet for suggesting that we can actually overcome sin. You hit a home run on this post, my friend.

[Guest]

Nobody has ever said that to you MM. You think that you have to become righteous before you can get the Holy Spirit, and that's not the way it works.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I read through this MM.

I would be a little concerned with your idea that Jesus was going to come in 1843.

As the sanctuary service does not typify this idea.

Rather that the investigative judgement has to take place first.

Mark :-)

Amen

It is the truth that the early Adventists believed that Jesus was coming in 1843 which was the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14. When He didn't come they did extend the deadline for a year, and then two. After that they gave up.

I agree with you, Mark, that the investigative judgment needed to take place first, but they did not know that until summer following the Great Disappointment of 1844. They thought that Jesus Christ was going to come, because they thought they were the bride. They were not the bride, but they were the bridesmaids who were supposed to get the bride ready for the bridegroom. I explained this in an earlier post.

This is a practical case of mistaken identity. They did not recognize themselves as being a part of the prophecy of Jesus in Matt. 25:1-13. In hindsight it is apparent (at least to me) that their situation in 1843-44 was a fulfillment of part of the prophecy in Matt. 25. The reason for the delay was that Jesus' prophecy of the delay took into consideration that they would not recognize who they were at that time; after which they ALL went to sleep. This is the condition in which they find themselves today. (By the way, EGW said that five wise only got drowsy, while the five foolish went to sleep.)

[Guest]

[Woody]

Quote:

It is the truth that the early Adventists believed that Jesus was coming in 1843 which was the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14. When He didn't come they did extend the deadline for a year, and then two. After that they gave up.

MM ... in June 27, 1850 she received a vision that the second coming would happen "in a few months".

[BobRyan]

MM ... in June 27, 1850 she received a vision that the second coming would happen "in a few months".

really ... I am waiting for that quote with reference.

Let me know...

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It is the truth that the early Adventists believed that Jesus was coming in 1843 which was the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14. When He didn't come they did extend the deadline for a year, and then two. After that they gave up.

Miller set the date as far back as 1818 for the year 1843 not accounting for the fact that there is no "year zero" so the year timeline does not work exactly like a numberline -- you have to add one to the resulting year when doing math that spans the point where "zero" was supposed to be.

By January 1843 William Miller's prediction was reduced to "sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

That put them in the spring of 1844 right off the bat as the latest for Miller's initial prediction even without taking into account the "no zero year" problem.

in Christ,

Bob

[pnattmbtc]

I believe you will find that EGW began stating that Christ could have come ere this two years after 1844 or thereabouts.

This is a somewhat minor point, but I'd like to know if I'm wrong about this. I think the first time she said this was in the late 1850's.

[Twilight]

I believe you will find that EGW began stating that Christ could have come ere this two years after 1844 or thereabouts. I would suggest that the church is the cause for the delay as she seems to indicate. Looking over the subsequent history of the church, I would say that we were not ready for His coming. Out of mercy to us, He has delayed His coming.

Additionally, I would suggest that perfection is not impossible as some seem to imply. I would give as my evidence the following.

Christ could not use any power which was not available to us or Satan would have called foul. Christ had to perfect a life just as we have to perfect a life, and He did so without sin. Secondly, Jude declares the following, "Now unto Him who is able to keep us from falling and present us blameless before His throne. To the only true God and savior through Jesus Christ, our Lord." Finally, with man it is impossible but with God, all is possible. And Christ declares, "Without Him we can do nothing."

How did Christ do this? Through the same power which He availed to Himself. He declares that He only did what His Father showed Him. He surrendered Himself daily to the will of the Father, and He never departed from that will. I think we use sin as an excuse for not perfecting our characters, when God has declared that through Him we can become overcomers. God has given us the tools we need.

Trust, Prayer, Bible study, and Surrender to God, allowing Him to work in our lives will have a changing affect upon us. Surrendering our will to His working is the secret. Daily, I must give up my will and let Him do His will through me.

I would also note that a person who has achieved true perfection is the last one to know it. Daniel was declared to be perfect, yet when you read his prayer in Daniel 9, he declares himself a sinner. I would suggest that our goal is never try to be perfect in our own power, that is impossible for us, but to do the will of the Father. When we surrender completely our will, our souls, and our hearts, God will perform a work in us. We will become less dependent upon what we can do, and more dependent upon the power of God to create a new creature within. As the prophet Jeremiah quotes God, "I (God) will put my law in their heart and mind and soul." God will do the work; we are to surrender to His molding, and we will become as Christ and Daniel and all those who preceded us.

We should never say that perfection is impossible. That denies the power of God. "Now unto Him who is able, above and beyond all abilities, to do infinitely more than we ask or can imagine based upon our internal power." Rather, we should say, "through God all is possible." Surrender and trust in the power of God to put His law in our hearts and minds; let Him do His work, and we can obtain cleanness before Him and stand blameless before our God. That is what God can do for us.

We can become whole and blameless and not stumble through the power of God, not through our power. Let us not make excuses for our continual sin. God has provided a means whereby we are able to bear all trials and temptations without failure.

I would just like to clarify this point:

God never asks us to remove the exercising of our will.

But that we "surrender" it to Him, in that we choose to agree with Him.

Our will is always in place.

Appreciated the thoughts however. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Amen

It is the truth that the early Adventists believed that Jesus was coming in 1843 which was the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14. When He didn't come they did extend the deadline for a year' date=' and then two. After that they gave up.

I agree with you, Mark, that the investigative judgment needed to take place first, but they did not know that until summer following the Great Disappointment of 1844. They thought that Jesus Christ was going to come, because they thought they were the bride. They were not the bride, but they were the bridesmaids who were supposed to get the bride ready for the bridegroom. I explained this in an earlier post.

This is a practical case of mistaken identity. They did not recognize themselves as being a part of the prophecy of Jesus in Matt. 25:1-13. In hindsight it is apparent (at least to me) that their situation in 1843-44 was a fulfillment of part of the prophecy in Matt. 25. The reason for the delay was that Jesus' prophecy of the delay took into consideration that they would not recognize who they were at that time; after which they ALL went to sleep. This is the condition in which they find themselves today. (By the way, EGW said that five wise only got drowsy, while the five foolish went to sleep.) [/quote']

Thank you for clarifying that MM. :-)

[Musicman1228]

If you go to the USNO (US Naval Observatory) and look it up there is no zero year in going from BCE (before common era) to CE (common era). The fact that Wm Miller did not take into consideration the zero year actually works to our advantage in calculating the end of the Restoration calendar. Since there is no zero year the ending of the 2300 evening/morning prophecy of Dan.8:14 did occur in 1843 not 1844.

This means that there was a fulfillment of this prophecy in that the Sanctuary was going to begin to be put back in it's original condition in 1843 with the establishment of the end time Kingdom of Heaven, i.e. the Advent Movement which then became the SDA church. Check it out.

[BobRyan]

If you go to the USNO (US Naval Observatory) and look it up there is no zero year in going from BCE (before common era) to CE (common era). The fact that Wm Miller did not take into consideration the zero year actually works to our advantage in calculating the end of the Restoration calendar. Since there is no zero year the ending of the 2300 evening/morning prophecy of Dan.8:14 did occur in 1843 not 1844.

If there was a zero year -- then William Miller's 1843 date is correct.

But in the middle of 1843 - one of the Millerites brought up the point that there is no zero in the timeline the way there is in the number line. So to correct for it - you must add one to the result. Thus the 1843 result - becomes 1844.

As it turns out the start date was correct for the fall of 457 B.C (actually it was on the day of Atonement that year - which is another very interesting point to look at).

457 + 1843 = 2300 IF there IS a year zero (the math in that case is the same as for the number line).

But since there is not a year zero -- you have to add one to account for all 2300 years. Thus 1844.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Amen

[BobRyan]

If you go to the USNO (US Naval Observatory) and look it up there is no zero year in going from BCE (before common era) to CE (common era).

1. That would be B.C (Before Christ) and A.D (Anno Domini - year of our Lord ). The B.C.E (Before Commen Era) is nonsensically claiming that the division for "Common Era" just so happens to coincide with efforts of Christianity to divide time by the birth of Christ.

2. You don't need the USNO to establish the "no zero year" in the timeline because the whole world is using it and is not relying on the USNO to establish the way mankind uses the current calendar.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

457BC to 1BC = 456 years.

1BC to 1AD = 1 year.

1AD to 1844 = 1843 years.

Total = 456 + 1 + 1843 = 2300 years.

457BC to 1BC = 456 years.

1BC to 1AD = 1 years.

1AD to 1843 years = 1482 years.

Total = 456 + 1 + 1842 = 2299 years.

If there were a 0 years, 457 BC to 1843 AD = 2300 years.

[Musicman1228]

Nice job pnattmbtc, very clear.

The idea of BC and AD vs. BCE and CE is actually important. If we use AD then we must also recognize that Jesus was probably born in 3 or 4 BC, by that reckoning. It is actually impossible to have Jesus born before He was born. It makes much more sense to say that Jesus was born in year 3 or 4 BCE (before common era), and makes other prophetic time frames much easier to calculate (see the above post by pnattmbtc).

The other important date to remember is final date of the final week of years of the prophecy of Dan. 9:24. This is the 70 weeks prophecy that ends in 33 CE, if there is no zero year. This calculation puts 30 CE as the Wednesday year of the final week of years of this prophecy. We are told in the prophecy that the Anointed One will be 'cut off' in the middle of the week, which would be that very same Wednesday year. It is interesting to note that in that Wednesday year of 30 CE the day of the Passover in that year is also a Wednesday. This gives the '3 nights and 3 days' that Jesus said He would be in the 'heart of the earth' significant meaning.

Read the following article and let me know what you think.

The Sabbath Resurrection of Jesus Christ

[BobRyan]

BC and AD are correct -- because they reflect the actual change in the calendar and "why" it was done.

The fact that the Christians who made that change were off on their dates does not change the intent. They were trying to divide TIME by the first coming of Christ.

The nebulous non-descript "Common Era" is nonsense. Nobody sat down and said -- Let's have the "Common Era" right "HERE" and then made the division. It is pure fiction and the reason it is done is transparently obvious -- people coming along "After the fact" and changing B.C to B.C.E in a revisionist history effort to remove Christ from the dateline. Thus making it more appealing to non-Christians.

After all - what date system is the world using today? Are they all Christian? Wouldn't the non-Christians prefer to "ignore the history of making the change" so that they would not have to admit that they are following a system of measuring time that Honors Christ?

The point remains my friends.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The other important date to remember is final date of the final week of years of the prophecy of Dan. 9:24. This is the 70 weeks prophecy that ends in 33 CE, if there is no zero year. This calculation puts 30 CE as the Wednesday year of the final week of years of this prophecy.

457 + 33 = 490 iF we had a zero year.

457 + 34 = 490 if we have NO zero year.

The death of Christ then is in the "Midst of the week" -- a term that does not signify "exact mathematical center" just as "three days and three nights" does not indicate "exactly 72 hours".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

457BC to 1BC = 456 years.

[Musicman1228]

NOTHING can take Christ out of the historical 'data line'.