End time "perfection".

[skyblue888]

ya right Red, nice try!

"The history of ancient Israel is a striking illustration of the past experience of the Adventist body. God led His people in the advent movement, even as He led the children of Israel from Egypt. In the great disappointment their faith was tested as was that of the Hebrews at the Red Sea. Had they still trusted to the guiding hand that had been with them in their past experience, they would have seen the salvation of God. If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844, had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people.

It was not the will of God that Israel should wander forty years in the wilderness; He desired to lead them directly to the land of Canaan and establish them there, a holy, happy people. But "they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:19. Because of their backsliding and apostasy they perished in the desert, and others were raised up to enter the Promised Land. In like manner, it was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be so long delayed and His people should remain so many years in this world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated them from God. As they refused to do the work which He had appointed them, others were raised up to proclaim the message. In mercy to the world, Jesus delays His coming, that sinners may have an opportunity to hear the warning and find in Him a shelter before the wrath of God shall be poured out." G.C.457,458.

sky

[Woody]

I think my quote is about as clear as one can get.

[olger]

Obedience good.

Selfishness bad.

[Guest]

When does probation close for the SDA church? During the shaking before the Great Trib, or at the seventh trumpet with everyone else?

For us it closes at the sunday law.

[Musicman1228]

I have not been able to find anything about a Sunday law in either Daniel or Revelation. Where do you find it in Scripture?

[Guest]

Are you saying you don't believe there will be a sunday law?

Oh ...that's right you don't believe the mark of the beast has anything to do with the Sabbath.

[teresaq]

I have not been able to find anything about a Sunday law in either Daniel or Revelation. Where do you find it in Scripture?

the traditional understandingexplanation does not make sense to you?

/

[olger]

Jesus was forsaken so that we don't have to be.

We can forsake sin in His power. Praise the Lord of Light.

G

[Gerr]

I have not been able to find anything about a Sunday law in either Daniel or Revelation. Where do you find it in Scripture?

When you understand what God's sign/mark/ensign/standard/token/memorial is, then you will understand what the sign/mark of the beast is, and when it will be placed on people.

[Guest]

Amen to both Gerry and Ol-ger

[olger]

That would be Gerry & Gerry,

(sounds like a law firm).

[skyblue888]

Thats right. The mark of the beast is the mark of its authority. The Catholic Church makes no bones about it. They have clearly stated in their official books that Sunday worship is the mark of their authority to change even the law of God.

sky

[Guest]

Tis true

[skyblue888]

Tis true

yup

[Woody]

Let's compare these two statements by authors of different authorites:

Quote:

"Unbelief on that account is what has caused Christ to delay His coming".

and

Quote:

"God has given no one light to say, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” " . . . {CTr 346.4}

Yep ... Seems like a no brainer to me.

[skyblue888]

"The history of ancient Israel is a striking illustration of the past experience of the Adventist body. God led His people in the advent movement, even as He led the children of Israel from Egypt. In the great disappointment their faith was tested as was that of the Hebrews at the Red Sea. Had they still trusted to the guiding hand that had been with them in their past experience, they would have seen the salvation of God. If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844, had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people.

It was not the will of God that Israel should wander forty years in the wilderness; He desired to lead them directly to the land of Canaan and establish them there, a holy, happy people. But "they could not enter in because of unbelief." Hebrews 3:19. Because of their backsliding and apostasy they perished in the desert, and others were raised up to enter the Promised Land. In like manner, it was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be so long delayed and His people should remain so many years in this world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated them from God. As they refused to do the work which He had appointed them, others were raised up to proclaim the message. In mercy to the world, Jesus delays His coming, that sinners may have an opportunity to hear the warning and find in Him a shelter before the wrath of God shall be poured out." G.C.457,458.

sky

[Woody]

Let's compare these two statements by authors of different authorites:

Quote:

"Unbelief on that account is what has caused Christ to delay His coming" {Sky}.

and

Quote:

"God has given no one light to say, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” " Ellen White in {CTr 346.4}

Yep ... Seems like a no brainer to me.

[LifeHiscost]

it is very easy to discuss what we must be like when Christ comes

It is always dangerous when we arrive at important spiritual conclusions that do not have their basis primarily and foremost, taken from the Holy Scriptures.

"But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."2 Peter 3:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org

"they must depend solely upon the merits of the atonement. . . . In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this."

The gospel message in verity.

Blessings!

[Ted Oplinger]

Thats right. The mark of the beast is the mark of its authority. The Catholic Church makes no bones about it. They have clearly stated in their official books that Sunday worship is the mark of their authority to change even the law of God.

sky

Hmmm...Standard Adventist interpretation there. A fair bit of facts to back it up, but a bit superficial, as it fails to get to the heart of the matter.

In studying the passages concerned with the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God - looking at the characteristics of the Remnant and those of the recipients of the plagues...

...I've come to the conclusion the the Mark of the Beast is something far more deeper than the mere issue of which day we worship on. Likewise the Seal of God - it is far more than mere choosing to worship on Sabbath.

Sabbath vs. any other day will be a lightening rod issue, yes, but it is not the essence of the conflict between the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God. The day of worship issue will be the outward controversy revealing the inward states...much like the difference seen between the 2 thieves crucified with Jesus.

End time perfection? It will happen, but those through whom it happens would never confess it, as their eyes are too focused on Jesus to make such a declaration. We will see Jesus in all His beauty, and see our natures as so fraught with sin it takes away all desire to call ourselves "perfect" - even if indwelt by the full presence of Deity.

Ted

[Woody]

Quote:

"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness . . . Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Leaflet Is Perfection Possible?, p. 11, 12

[skyblue888]

"The people to whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become representatives of Satan. They were doing the work that he desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyrant... God could do no more for man through these channels. The whole system must be swept away." D.A.36.

This is a description of the past history of God's professed people at the time of the first coming of Christ and a prophecy that reaches down to our time before the second coming of Christ. As it is written, "The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented before me again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ--how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants, that they may not be able to discern the precious truth." E.G. White, R&H, Feb.18,1890.

The people (Advent people) who were were called to be the pillar and ground of the truth have lost their bearings. "The people to whom God had entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." T.M.397.

It is no longer a matter of what these people were called to be but a matter of what they have become. The whole system must be swept away. The deception of sin has reached its height. All the agencies for depraving the souls of men have been put in operation. Jesus is looking upon His professed church and the world beholding suffering and misery. With pity He sees how men have become victims of satanic cruelty. He looks with compassion upon those who are being corrupted, murdered, and lost. They have chosen a ruler who claim them to his car as captives. Bewildered and deceived, they are moving on in gloomy procession toward eternal ruin, to death in which is no hope of life, toward night to which comes no morning.

Satanic agencies are incorporated with men. The bodies of human beings, made for the dwelling place of God, have become the habitation of demons. The senses, the nerves, the passions, the organs of men, are worked by supernatural agencies in the indulgence of the vilest lust. The very stamp of demons is impressed upon the countenances of men. Human faces reflect the expression of the legions of evil with which they are possessed. Such is the prospect upon which the world's Redeemer is looking. What a spectacle for Infinite Purity to behold!

Sin has become a science, and vice is consecrated as a part of religion. Rebellion has struck its roots deep into the heart, and the hostility of man is most violent against heaven. It is demonstrated before the universe that, apart from God, humanity can not be uplifted. A new element of life and power must be imparted by Him who made the world.

With intense interest the unfallen worlds are watching to see Jehovah arise, and sweep away the inhabitants of the earth. And if God should do this, Satan would be ready to carry out his plan for securing to himself the allegiance of heavenly beings. He has declared that the principles of God's government make forgiveness impossible. If the world is destroyed, he will claim that his accusations are proved true. But instead of destroying the world, God is sending the last message of mercy to save it.

Though corruption and defiance are seen in every part of the alien province, a way for its recovery has been provided. "Faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100. When Satan seems about to triumph, the Son of God, through His messengers, comes with the embassage of divine grace. Notwithstanding the perversity of men, the signals of mercy are continually exhibited. Once more the fullness of the time has come, the Deity will be glorified by pouring upon the world a flood of healing grace that will never be obstructed or withdrawn till the plan of salvation should be fulfilled.

Satan is exulting that he has succeeded in debasing the image of God in humanity. But now Jesus comes to restore in man the image of his Maker. None but Christ can fashion anew the character that has been ruined by sin. He comes again to expel the demons that are controlling the will. He comes to lift us up from the dust, to reshape the marred character after the pattern of His divine character, and to make it beautiful with His own glory.

This is the last message of mercy to mankind.

We have come to the fullness of time.

"The revelation of His own glory in the form of humanity will bring heaven so near to men that the beauty adorning the inner temple will be seen in every soul in whom the Saviour dwells. Men will be captivated by the glory of an abiding Christ. And in currents of praise and thanksgiving from the many souls thus won to God, glory will flow back to the great Giver." C.O.L.420.

sky

[oldsailor29]

The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented before me again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ--how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants, that they may not be able to discern the precious truth." E.G. White, R&H, Feb.18,1890.

In 1844 the vision was given to Ellen Harmon, showing the way we should go.

In 1868 another vision was given to Ellen White, showing the way we went was the wrong way.

And in 1890 Ellen White wrote the above quoted paragraph, acknowledging the same mistake.

The solution is simple. Go back and study the 1844 vision. Determine that it says we should follow Jesus, and decide how that is different from what we have been doing. I believe the answer is that we have not been following Jesus, but because we think that by following Moses we are following Jesus, we have been on the wrong path. I think we need to study what Jesus Himself was credited with saying. If we follow Jesus, our thinking on the 1888 message will be corrected. I think this is the right path to the Holy City.

[BobRyan]

Let's compare these two statements by authors of different authorites:

Quote:

"Unbelief on that account is what has caused Christ to delay His coming".

and

Quote:

"God has given no one light to say, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” " . . . {CTr 346.4}

Yep ... Seems like a no brainer to me.

Context is everything.

The first statement is talking about the historic fact that his coming was delayed.

The second statement is talking about those who say "I know this - Christ will NOT come this year, or next year, or the next year or ..." (I heard a pastor stand up and say that recently".

in Christ,

Bob

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Let's compare these two statements by authors of different authorites:

Quote:

"Unbelief on that account is what has caused Christ to delay His coming".

and

Quote:

"God has given no one light to say, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” " . . . {CTr 346.4}

Yep ... Seems like a no brainer to me.

Context is everything.

The first statement is talking about the historic fact that his coming was delayed.

The second statement is talking about those who say "I know this - Christ will NOT come this year, or next year, or the next year or ..." (I heard a pastor stand up and say that recently".

in Christ,

Bob

Concerning the first statement:

Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. Matt.25:5

This indicates that He (Jesus-the Bridegroom) delayed His coming, not that it was mysteriously delayed somehow. The question is begged, "Why did He delay His coming?"

Given the context there is only one acceptable answer, and that is that His bride was not ready. If He had come at a time when the bride was not ready then there would never be a wedding. Rather than let that happen the Bridegroom postponed His coming for His bride UNTIL she could be made ready. Since this prophecy is taking about the bridesmaids NOT the bride the reason for the delay is that the bridesmaids were not ready to prepare the bride for the coming of the groom.

The SDA church thought that THEY were the bride, when in reality they were/are the bridesmaids, who at the time when the Bridegroom desired to come (1843) were unprepared and unable to get His bride ready for the marriage.

So it was not so much that the SDA church did not believe that He was coming but that they believed they were the bride when they were not. They believed the wrong thing, which cause the Bridegroom the need to delay.

Concerning the second statement:

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man". Matt. 24:36-39.

James White in a paper titled "Matthew 24" made a very startling comment about the word "knows" in this text. After studying the Greek and Aramaic his understanding became that the translation should more properly have been "makes known", as in 'convey knowledge'. Therefore, he proposed that the text should actually read, "But concerning that day and hour no one "makes known", not the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only". As you can see, this would change things a lot in how we view the timing and time of the end.

I believe this to be the case. This is confirmed in Rev. 1:1 where Jesus tells John, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him . . ."

What was the only thing that Jesus Himself said that He did not know while here on earth? When He was going to come back (Matt.24:36).

So the only logical conclusion I can arrive at is that when Jesus was on earth He did not know when He was going to come back. When He went to heaven after the resurrection God the Father told Him when He would return. He gave this information to John, through the angel, who then gave it to the bondservants so they would KNOW when He was coming again.

To say that we will never know (ahead of time) when Jesus is to return is a product of faulty analysis brought on by a gross misinterpretation of a single prophecy (2300 evenings/mornings).

I will point out one other thing concerning the Matt.24:36-39 passage; according to Jesus Christ Himself just as at the time of the flood no one will know when He returns, it will catch everyone by surprise. How can this be, when there are going to be 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of wrath, and Christ coming in the clouds with lightning shining from the east unto the west, and when the graves are opened and the dead in Christ shall rise? How will the world NOT KNOW that He is coming when all during the Great Tribulation the 144,000 and the saints (five wise bridesmaids) and the two witnesses will be telling the world that He is coming and when. Are people that stupid that they will not recognize the rocks falling on them or the fact that they have received the Mark of the Beast? I don't think so. (According to Jesus, Noah did not preach a coming flood. If he had preached for 120 years as we have been told then how would the people of the world been surprised by the coming of the flood?)

The logical conclusion is that the coming that Jesus is speaking of in this passage is His coming as a thief in the night. "Night" in prophecy indicates a lack of signs and wonders, and prophetic fulfillments. When we read Matt.25:1-13 carefully we see that when the Bridegroom comes the bridesmaids are ALL asleep, and miss His coming. If this coming is the coming in the Clouds of glory then those bridesmaids SLEPT through the greatest event in earths history. This is not possible. Those 10 bridesmaids are awakened by a cry "at MIDNIGHT" saying that "The Bridegroom IS HERE, come out to meet Him". They then wake up and find that five are prepared and five are not.

If this interpretation is true (and I believe that it is) then we have been sold a bill-of-goods, by being told that we can never and will never know the day and the hour. We can and we will.