olger Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Even in heaven, we will continue to grow spiritually and learn more of God's love, becoming more and more like Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Oh please...stop the nonsense!!!! In heaven we will be sinless, John....We will "measure with the life of God". We will not think of self, we will live for those around us. We will be perfect as God is perfect....What you are inferring is that there will be imperfection in heaven and hence we must grow. The length that legalists go to preach their heresies are astounding. Inappropriate post, Robt. `og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Even in heaven, we will continue to grow spiritually and learn more of God's love, becoming more and more like Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Oh please...stop the nonsense!!!! In heaven we will be sinless, John.... No nonsense. :-) Concerning the new earth, Ellen White writes: Quote: There every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul. {AH 549.2} Yes, for sure the saved will be sinless. But there is more to spiritual growth than not sinning, Rob. We will not be absolutely perfect beings immediately after the resurrection. That is why the Bible says the leaves of the tree of life will be for the healing of the nations. The saved-- who will be immortal-- will still need "healing." As you can see in the above quote, Ellen White indicates that the saved will continue to grow and improve all through eternity. This is not, of course, implying that the saved will be sinning in heaven. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Steve Billiter Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Oh please...stop the nonsense!!!! In heaven we will be sinless, John....We will "measure with the life of God". We will not think of self, we will live for those around us. We will be perfect as God is perfect....What you are inferring is that there will be imperfection in heaven and hence we must grow. The length that legalists go to preach their heresies are astounding. [/quote'] Inappropriate post, Robt. `og Occupations in the New Earth.--In the earth made new the redeemed will engage in the occupations and pleasures that brought happiness to Adam and Eve in the beginning. The Eden life will be lived, the life in garden and field. "They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." {AH 549.1} There every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul. {AH 549.2} Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 The aorist, "hemarton", in the Greek refers to an act which took place at a specific point of time in the past. Young's Literal Translation has: Quote: for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; as opposed to "for all have sinned" as the KJV has it. I think the YLT may be more accurate here. Rom. 1: 23 Young's Literal Translation is, "for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--" The King James Version reads, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Both the YLT and KJV are correct grammatically, but in this instance the translation "have sinned" is to be preferred. See bottom of post. The lexicon form of the word for "sin" is hamartano, and means "to miss a mark, to be in error, to sin." The aorist does not point to a particular time when the thing happened. See the standard Greek grammars. Ray Summers Essential's of New Testament Greek, pp. 66-67, regarding the use of the aorist verb: "The Greek aorist may be translated by either the simple past tense in English 'I loosed' or the perfect tense in English, 'I have loosed.' "There are several shades of meaning in the use of the aorist tense. The major ones are the constative in which the action is looked upon in its entirety... Actually the act may have covered considerable time but it is presented as one act. The ingressive aorist views the act as having occurred but emphasizes the initiation... The culminative aorist views the act as having occurred but emphasizes the end of the action or the state of being resulting from the action. At this point the aorist encroaches upon the function of the Greek perfect...." Dana and Mantey's A Manual Grammar of the Greek NT, p 193: "The aorist signifies nothing as to completeness, but simply presents the action as attained. It states the fact of the action or event without regard to its duration." The above textbook states that the word hemarton in Romans 1: 23 "emphasizes the reality of a fact which has taken place, hence should be construed as a culminative aorist and best rendered, all have sinned." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Occupations in the New Earth.--In the earth made new the redeemed will engage in the occupations and pleasures that brought happiness to Adam and Eve in the beginning. The Eden life will be lived, the life in garden and field. "They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." {AH 549.1} There every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul. {AH 549.2} Thanks so much for these great quotes. They are important to remember. Eternal life with God is going to be far more wonderful than anything we can possibly imagine. If anybody misses it, they will have missed everything. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 .... the verse itself is saying that no one comes up to God's ideal and that there is always room for growth and improvement. But you are one who teaches that we are under the jurisdiction of the law....That it is binding on the believer....If so we can all kiss heaven goodbye! Your argument here causes me to think that you are approaching this from a legalistic viewpoint. Just because we are obligated as believers in Christ to obey Him and the commandments of God does not mean that trying to earn heaven is the motive for obeying God. Faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to the law of God. Look at it this way: a married man is under the jurisdiction of the law which binds him to his wife, but is that why he is faithful and gives his love to her? Would the man who loves his wife want to do away with the law that binds him to her and her to him? Would a change in the law change anything in his behavior and dedication toward her? Does he wake up every day thinking about how he must do certain things for his wife because the law demands it? Not if he truly loves her. In the same way a man's love for his wife does not release him from the necessity of obeying the law related to marriage, does it? Does love for my wife mean I can now be unfaithful to her or disobey the law related to marriage relationships in other ways? Of course not. So why would anyone believe that faith in Christ means they don't need to obey His eternal, unchanging law? It doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't Jack Sequeira teach that believers are to obey God's law? Or does he teach that believers are released from obedience to the law of God? Ellen White wrote, "The very fact of the death of God's dear Son to redeem man shows the immutability (unchangeableness) of the divine law.... The doctrine which teaches freedom, through grace, to break the law is a fatal delusion. Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin.... It is impossible for an individual to experience Bible sanctification while he holds that if he believes in Christ it is immaterial whether he obeys God's law or disobeys it..... Many are led to think that they are on the road to heaven because they profess to believe in Christ, while they reject the law of God. But they will find at last that they were on the way to perdition instead of heaven." FW 30-32 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight Posted December 25, 2009 Author Posted December 25, 2009 Sorry about that. One can't hear one's voice intonation on the internet, so you didn't take it the way I intended, which was more playful than aggressive. I'll take the responsibility for the misunderstanding. p.s. I'm still hoping for an answer! No problem. :-) I will spend some time on the new thread when I have a spare minute. :-) Probably Sunday now. :-) But I will answer all your questions and of course discuss your position as well. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Robert Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 we are obligated as believers in Christ to obey Him and the commandments.... Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters — for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a man only as long as he lives? The law is binding on us as long as we live. Its demands are (and I'll quote EGW) “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” [RH 5-7-1901] verse 6: "But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." The law can no longer demand of us obedience and death for failing to measure up. So, if you want to teach what the Judaziers of old taught, that's your right, but "under law" you and those who accept your theology will never make it to heaven. Why? Because you are failing to live Christ's life of selflessness and therefore the very law you claim you are bound to will curse you..... Quote
Robert Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Just because we are obligated as believers in Christ to obey Him and the commandments of God does not mean that trying to earn heaven is the motive for obeying God. And since all of us are failing to live up to its highest demands (see Rom 3:23) what then? Are we lost? If so our reason for trying to keep the law becomes one to be saved, which is legalism. Quote
olger Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 "God is so rich in mercy and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when Christ raised from the dead. Salvation is not a reward for good things you have done, but a gift of grace" (undeserved, special favor without merit) Ephesians 2:4-10 g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
karl Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 I believe when He shed His blood (gave up His life) 2000 years ago, He did it for all of humanity, yet that sacrifice affects me personally only as I see Christ dying for me and continuously see myself with Him nailed to His cross. That subjective experience is based on an objective event, but the objective event won't change anything in my life as God intends unless I make that event current and personal through a faith-based relationship with Christ. The sacrifice affects you personally with every breath. This is what it means to say that to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The objective event gives you life, which impacts everything, as without life you'd be, well, dead. One needs to accept Christ to be justified by faith, but Christ's sacrifice does much for each one, regardless of their personal decision to accept Christ or not. While any form of life can only come from the Life-Giver, please remember that the "life" which forensic proponents claim as one of the merits of the cross is referred to by our Redeemer and by Paul as "death." Let the dead bury the dead. Dead in trespasses and sins. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 I believe when He shed His blood (gave up His life) 2000 years ago, He did it for all of humanity, yet that sacrifice affects me personally only as I see Christ dying for me and continuously see myself with Him nailed to His cross. That subjective experience is based on an objective event, but the objective event won't change anything in my life as God intends unless I make that event current and personal through a faith-based relationship with Christ. The sacrifice affects you personally with every breath. This is what it means to say that to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The objective event gives you life, which impacts everything, as without life you'd be, well, dead. One needs to accept Christ to be justified by faith, but Christ's sacrifice does much for each one, regardless of their personal decision to accept Christ or not. Yes, it's true the objective event impacts everything whether we accept Christ or not. The majority of people in the world use their health and their second probation in order to live as if Christ never died for them. But I'm talking about the power of God that leads to salvation for all who place their faith in Jesus Christ. That doesn't happen unless we see Christ as a personal, living Savior, not merely an historical figure who died 2000 years ago. Lots of people will die believing in the historical Jesus because they didn't allow Him to be their Lord and Savior in their actual life today. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
teresaq Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) i think waggoner states the facts best. Thank you,thank you for pointing this out. i shouldnt have said "facts". i should have said, waggoner made the most sense to me, and that would be subjective. there are already too many self-appointed authorities. i dont need to jump on the bandwagon also. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 We will not be absolutely perfect beings immediately after the resurrection. That is why the Bible says the leaves of the tree of life will be for the healing of the nations. i believe the tree of life is for our healing, physically. we will physically grow to the stature originally meant for us, as in adam and eves height. i also believe the tree of life will be an eternal symbol of our dependence on life outside of ourselves. something we could forget a few billion years down the road.... Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 olger's last name is Waggoner. That's why he said, "Thank you." Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
teresaq Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 "God is so rich in mercy and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when Christ raised from the dead. Salvation is not a reward for good things you have done, but a gift of grace" (undeserved, special favor without merit) Ephesians 2:4-10 that was a good translation. it got the point across very well. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 We will not be absolutely perfect beings immediately after the resurrection. That is why the Bible says the leaves of the tree of life will be for the healing of the nations. i believe the tree of life is for our healing, physically. we will physically grow to the stature originally meant for us, as in adam and eves height. i also believe the tree of life will be an eternal symbol of our dependence on life outside of ourselves. something we could forget a few billion years down the road.... Yes, all true. As Ellen White wrote about life on the new earth: Quote: There every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul. {AH 549.2} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Not to anyone....Just food for thought.... If I murder someone to get their money, what's the motivator/driver? I love me ... I want his money, me, me, me....It's mine, give it to me. If I have sex with my next door's neighbor's wife, what's the motivator/driver? I love me ... I want her goodies for my pleasure, I could care less about her husband...me, me, me....It's mine, give it to me. If I think that Christ's doing & dying 2000 years is incomplete and therefore I must add to that...what's the motivator/driver? I love me ... I want to get some credit, I want a star in my crown so I can brag... me, me, me....It's mine, give it to me. If I play a game of football/basket ball...a game of "chess" in order to win, what's the motivator/driver? I love me ... I won't to # 1, me, me, me....It's mine, give it to me. You get the picture? So no sin is small in God's eyes.....Sin is sin.... If we are to begin experiencing less self-seeking (dying to self) in our lives we have to have all self-confidence completely slammed in the dust....Our righteousness is Christ, now and in the judgment. Only when we understand the love of God, only when we have the assurance of salvation can we begin to grow....And I believe the 144,000 will experience complete maturity, not to be saved because "in Christ" they already have it..... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Quote: Doesn't Jack Sequeira teach that believers are to obey God's law? Or does he teach that believers are released from obedience to the law of God? Yes, to the first question. Sequeira teaches that the agape of God motivates us to give ourselves to Him, and that the loving response of the Christ to the Gospel will be obedience to His law. He emphasizes that this obedience stems from faith. He argues against the idea that our keeping of the law is meritorious in any way, but he's not antinomian. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Sorry about that. One can't hear one's voice intonation on the internet, so you didn't take it the way I intended, which was more playful than aggressive. I'll take the responsibility for the misunderstanding. p.s. I'm still hoping for an answer! No problem. :-) I will spend some time on the new thread when I have a spare minute. :-) Probably Sunday now. :-) But I will answer all your questions and of course discuss your position as well. Mark Ok, I'm looking forward to discussing your position on the other post, but will point out that there is no position of mine to discuss as of yet, as I've not stated one. So far, I've only asked you what your position is. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Quote: Doesn't Jack Sequeira teach that believers are to obey God's law? Or does he teach that believers are released from obedience to the law of God? Yes, to the first question. Sequeira teaches that the agape of God motivates us to give ourselves to Him, and that the loving response of the Christ to the Gospel will be obedience to His law. He emphasizes that this obedience stems from faith. He argues against the idea that our keeping of the law is meritorious in any way, but he's not antinomian. But he also teaches that none of us are living Christ's life of selflessness...144,000 the exception perhaps. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Yes, it's true the objective event impacts everything whether we accept Christ or not. The majority of people in the world use their health and their second probation in order to live as if Christ never died for them. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 But he (Sequeira) also teaches that none of us are living Christ's life of selflessness...144,000 the exception perhaps. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Steve Billiter Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert But he (Sequeira) also teaches that none of us are living Christ's life of selflessness...144,000 the exception perhaps. Who made Sequeria the judge of all? This sounds really negative and self-defeating. Just what I expect from the source. (JS) Quote
teresaq Posted December 26, 2009 Posted December 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: RobertBut he (Sequeira) also teaches that none of us are living Christ's life of selflessness...144,000 the exception perhaps. Who made Sequeria the judge of all? This sounds really negative and self-defeating. Just what I expect from the source. (JS) thank you for sharing that. :) Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
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