I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[John317]

Quote:

May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant

Oh but I do know that Mark is a sinner.

Yes, all humans on this earth are sinners. Since Mark is human, he is a sinner. But the fact that someone is a sinner doesn't mean we can be certain they are committing sin at the present time.

Quote:

ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.

You misquoted this verse. It should read, "All sinned," or "HAVE sinned."

"All sin" would mean all humans are continuously sinning.

The falling short of God's glory is contrasted with sinning, or lawlessness. Even those practicing righteousness are falling short of God's glory, even though they're not sinning.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

cool!! then we are literally dwelling in Christ, as in physically, by your "logic".

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me....

Not so fast Teresa...

You have not justified your view as to why it is metaphorical.

You have done something very similar to evolutionists when they argue their position.

You have assumed you are correct, then used that assumption to display your own argument as "proof".

If you cannot supply a basis for your belief from the bible, then you have nothing to bring to the table.

"Mere opinion", is not doctrine.

Please supply the bible texts for your view.

Until you do that, all of your posts on this subject will have to be treated as personal opinion and worthless in the context of this study.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

Are you saying we do not need to co-operate with God to be saved Robert?

This really is not all that difficult for an open person to understand. It's as simple as ABC.

Our 'saved' status was secured 2,000 years ago. There is nothing that you could do to add or subtract to it either by trying extra hard or even reaching out to take it.

If you have a gift under the tree .... that gift is there whether you accept it by reaching under the tree ... or not. The gift remains what it is ... a gift.

The simple matter of accepting the gift just means that you will now be able to use and benefit from that fruitcake or whatever it might be.

The same with the gift of eternal life. That has been secured for you. No matter how many good works you perform ... it will not change the gift. If you want to benefit from the gift ... you do have to reach out and take ahold of it and accept it.

So you do have to co-operate then Redwood.

So we have to accept the "gift".

So let me ask you.

Why do you not receive the gift of obedience?

It is under the tree, all you have to do is receive it.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within

If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you Mark ... why are you still sinning?

May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant.

The dwelling of the Holy Spirit does not mean people don't ever sin or make mistakes or fall short of God's glorious ideal for us. However, when the Holy Spirit is dwelling in the believer, the Bible teaches that he/she won't practice willful, deliberate sin. It's important to understand the difference. Practice of sin means habitual sinning rather than the practice of righteousness, or right doing. The Holy Spirit helps us learn how to practice righteousness if we allow Him to teach us, and He also empowers us to do it. He fills our hearts with love for everyone, including the most unloving and unlovely. But despite this-- as 1 John 1: 5-10 shows-- spirit-filled believers still may sin occasionally.

Indeed John317.

:-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant

Oh but I do know that Mark is a sinner.

Yes, all humans on this earth are sinners. Since Mark is human, he is a sinner. But the fact that someone is a sinner doesn't mean we can be certain they are committing sin at the present time.

Quote:

ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.

You misquoted this verse. It should read, "All sinned," or "HAVE sinned."

"All sin" would mean all humans are continuously sinning.

The falling short of God's glory is contrasted with sinning, or lawlessness. Even those practicing righteousness are falling short of God's glory, even though they're not sinning.

Just so there is no confusion...

I am a sinner saved by Grace.

Sin works in me to take me out of Christ.

As I remain in Christ, in His promises and Him in me through the agency of the Holy Spirit, I am given the gift of obedience.

As long as I consent my will and follow the Holy Spirit continually.

Sometimes that does not happen.

But I confess and return to God.

Which is the overcoming gospel.

Mark

[Robert]

This verse (Rom 3:23) doesn't make it possible for you to say that all people are sinning at any particular time.

[Robert]

Now, it does look like the last generation of Christians (what the Bible calls the 144,000) will experience full maturity - perhaps sinless living in sinful flesh....But for this to happen their earthliness (worldliness) must be severed.

During the time of Jacob's trouble believers will have given up all egocentric concerns and hence the principle of "self". It is said, "they loved not their lives even unto death". But that is future....As long as we are involved in this world (which is under Lucifer's domain and principle of self) we are in some way living in sin (one's bent to self).

As Jack states, "Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, 'all that is in the world' (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)."

EGW agrees: “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

[Woody]

Quote:

But the fact that someone is a sinner doesn't mean we can be certain they are committing sin at the present time.

You are so focused on the legal aspects of the law. But what you don't realize is that you are guilty against the law no matter what. And even though you don't like to admit it ... you are now sinning. And you will continue to sin till the day you die. Whether you are aware of the sin in you at this very moment is neither here nor there. You remain guilty.

[Woody]

Quote:

Until you do that, all of your posts on this subject will have to be treated as personal opinion and worthless in the context of this study.

Mark

Everything I read in this thread is mere opinion. All we have is opinion. What one interprets from scripture is mere opinion. That is all that one can bring to the discussion ... that is unless you believe as Steve does ...

Quote:

"it is impossible for me to be in error"

But then ... I don't know of too many people that believe as he does on this matter.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why do you not receive the gift of obedience?

It is under the tree, all you have to do is receive it.

Mark

What makes you think you can make a statement like this. Please show me documented evidence where I have ever in all the time being here on CA ... that I have stated that I haven't accepted the gift of obedience. This is an outrage. What makes you think you can make statements as fact ... when I have never made such a statement. If you are going to try to represent my beliefs ... please quote me instead of fabricating them. For you will have to answer to God for doing so. What gives you the nerve to think that I don't obey?

Thank you

And btw ... your 'second hand wisdom' is not working out so well.

[Woody]

Quote:

As long as I consent my will and follow the Holy Spirit continually.

Sometimes that does not happen.

So what happens when the yo-yo is not in the right place?

[Woody]

Quote:

Since they are continually failing to fully live up to God's agape in every deed they do then they can never say "I am without sin".

AMEN

[Woody]

Exactly

[Woody]

Quote:

Paul, after conversion, states "I am (present tense) the chief of sinners".

Thanks Rob. This is a critical Truth that legalists do not grasp. They want so much to think that they can achieve a holy state of sinlessness and thus have salvation without what Christ did ... that they over look the most basic of Christian doctrines. One being that we are sinners in need of a Savoiur. And notice I said we ARE NOW sinners and WILL continue to be sinners in need of Jesus. WE never move out of the need for Him.

Yes, I am a SINNER

[Woody]

Quote:

And EGW states, "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e., I am sinless in sinful flesh]. [AA 560]

Again John, I don't know why you and others are so preoccupied with this perfectionistic attitude. The focus is all wrong and leads to insecurity of one's assurance.

Now this one deserves an extra big ...

AMEN

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, as I was reading through this thread, it appeared you were asked 5 or 6 times what you think it means to say the Holy Spirit dwells in you, without answering. All I know is you appear to think this is literal, but I have no idea what you think this means.

Would you please explain what you think the phrase "the Holy Spirit dwells in me" means using other words? -- specifically the "dwells in me" part; you can use the words "Holy Spirit"

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #312780 (a post of Robert's)

1.Jack Sequeira is making it clear that the believer will be obedient to the law, which is a point I've been making for some time. To refer to him as if he didn't teach that obedience is the fruit of salvation is misleading, and not fair to him. He does not teach that one can "only believe" and live a life of sin.

The point that JS makes is that true obedience is the fruit of agape. One cannot hope for salvation by an obedience which has self-love as its foundation. But if one has been converted by the love of Christ, agape, then that agape is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and the fruit of conversion is obedience.

2.When Paul refers to himself as "the chief of sinners," he is not referring to his current life of sinning or not sinning, but is recognizing himself in the light of Christ, and the fact that it was his sins which crucified the Savior.

[Robert]

2.When Paul refers to himself as "the chief of sinners," he is not referring to his current life of sinning or not sinning, but is recognizing himself in the light of Christ, and the fact that it was his sins which crucified the Savior.

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart [mind - not performance] that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, “My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” So when Isaiah beheld the glory of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” Dan. 10:8; Isa. 6:5. Humanity, with its weakness and sin, was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy. Thus it has been with all who have been granted a view of God’s greatness and majesty. [DA 246]

[Woody]

Quote:

He does not teach that one can "only believe" and live a life of sin.

This is a straw man argument. For I know of no one who is claiming this.

Quote:

The point that JS makes is that true obedience is the fruit of agape. One cannot hope for salvation by an obedience which has self-love as its foundation. But if one has been converted by the love of Christ, agape, then that agape is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and the fruit of conversion is obedience.

I know of no one who is questioning this.

[Steve Billiter]

Not so. Sequeria is loose on obedience. It is NOT a fruit.

Obedience must be present from the very start. Jesus says "come to me" that is a command. Confession of sin and repentance are commands too.

The idea of obedience is some fruit in the future is nonsense.

What happens is that obedience may never come. And Sequeria's false "all the world is saved" nonsense, also throws obedience to the wayside.

Just because Sequeria does have a correct teaching on obedience,it is destroyed by his incorrect teachings.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, self-control: against such there is no law.

Where do you see obedience as some fruit in the future? Not so.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Not only that this text makes it very clear the gospel is obeyed from the start. The Holy Spirit send conviction, then what?

Act 5:31 Him has God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

We can either choose to answer the call of God or refuse it. To answer it can only mean obedience!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The question is, does the past refer to the death of Christ 2000 years ago or to the time when the believer accepted Christ's sacrifice?

Christ does not die again and again every time someone believes (see Hebrews chapter 9)....

Of course you are right that the atonement on the cross will never be repeated.

Christ died once for all.

I believe when He shed His blood (gave up His life) 2000 years ago, He did it for all of humanity, yet that sacrifice affects me personally only as I see Christ dying for me and continuously see myself with Him nailed to His cross.

That subjective experience is based on an objective event, but the objective event won't change anything in my life as God intends unless I make that event current and personal through a faith-based relationship with Christ.

If Jesus' death on a cross two thousand years ago is merely an historical event and not a living experience that transforms people's lives today by faith in the power of the resurrected Christ, then the gospel becomes a report of something that happened centuries ago and is not "the power of God" to save everyone who is trusting in the message. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ." From Paul's viewpoint, he was crucified right along with Christ.

In Gal. 3: 1, Paul appeals to his readers to remember the Christ who was publicly placarded before their very eyes as having been crucified. The original language makes it plain that although the crucifixion occurred on a hill in far-off Jerusalem, it was as if it occurred in the experience of each believer. They saw themselves as being nailed to the cross along with Jesus. The majority of the Greek texts of Galatians 3: 1 add the words, "among you," so that Paul is telling the people to remember the crucifixion of Christ which they saw in their very midst so vividly portrayed.

[Woody]

Quote:

obedience. It is NOT a fruit.

Hmmmm

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Steve B wrote:

Quote:

Jesus says "come to me" that is a command.

I thought that was an invitation.

[Woody]

Good Point Pam.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Why do you not receive the gift of obedience?

It is under the tree, all you have to do is receive it.

Mark

What makes you think you can make a statement like this. Please show me documented evidence where I have ever in all the time being here on CA ... that I have stated that I haven't accepted the gift of obedience. This is an outrage. What makes you think you can make statements as fact ... when I have never made such a statement. If you are going to try to represent my beliefs ... please quote me instead of fabricating them. For you will have to answer to God for doing so. What gives you the nerve to think that I don't obey?

Thank you

And btw ... your 'second hand wisdom' is not working out so well.

Maybe it was your many statements saying you will be sinning until Jesus comes?

How can you have received obedience if you are still sinning?

----------------

If you do not want to be misunderstood, then you need to clarify your position.

Once again, I point out to you, that your explanations of your own positions, do not come across clearly, and you seem more intent on being offended, than clarifying.

Does that not indicate that your thoughts are focused on yourself possibly?

And therefore, you keep passing by the opportunity, to clear up inconsistencies possibly?

Taking great offense, when a simple clear explanation would equally surfice to diffuse the situation?

If it was just me that this happened with, then maybe you could say it was me.

But as this happens with countless other posters, maybe the problem is your own ability to communicate what you believe?

It is also possible you have inconsistencies in your own beliefs that you do not see yourself.

Mark :-)