teresaq Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you Mark ... why are you still sinning? May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant. The dwelling of the Holy Spirit does not mean people don't ever sin or make mistakes or fall short of God's glorious ideal for us. However, when the Holy Spirit is dwelling in the believer, the Bible teaches that he/she won't practice willful, deliberate sin. It's important to understand the difference. Practice of sin means habitual sinning rather than the practice of righteousness, or right doing. The Holy Spirit helps us learn how to practice righteousness if we allow Him to teach us, and He also empowers us to do it. He fills our hearts with love for everyone, including the most unloving and unlovely. But despite this-- as 1 John 1: 5-10 shows-- spirit-filled believers still may sin occasionally. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Not all Christians are sinning every moment of the day, nor do they necessarily sin. See 1 John 2: 1. It says, "IF anyone sins..." Not "when" anyone sins. That's significant Oh but I do know that Mark is a sinner. ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 I am denying that you are saved by anything you do...or the Spirit does in you. There is a definite relationship between what we do and how we cooperate with God and our ultimate salvation. If there is not, they why are some saved but most lost? We are not saved because of good works, but the Bible and Ellen White are clear that no one will be saved without good works out of a living faith in Christ. It's the same with faith itself: no one is saved by faith, but neither will anyone be saved without it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: We are not saved because of good works, but the Bible and Ellen White are clear that no one will be saved without good works that result from a living faith in Christ. That's a relief. 'Cause every person on the face of the planet has good works. Christ works in all to some degree. For ALL good comes from God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: We are not saved because of good works, but the Bible and Ellen White are clear that no one will be saved without good works that result from a living faith in Christ. That's a relief. 'Cause every person on the face of the planet has good works. Christ works in all to some degree. For ALL good comes from God. The only good works that God sees as "good works" are those which spring from the Holy Spirit and from true faith in Christ. Most good works that the world sees are the result of sin and selfishness. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: Most good works that the world sees are the result of sin and selfishness. All Good comes from God through the Holy Spirit. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: Most good works that the world sees are the result of sin and selfishness. All Good comes from God through the Holy Spirit. This is true, yes. Every good impulse is from God in the ultimate sense. But the Bible and Ellen White show us that a lot of things that appear to be good are motivated by pride, greed, selfishness and other sinful impulses. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Hey Richard, about time you finally showed up. Where you been? Oh I see, posting pics. lol Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: Are you saying we do not need to co-operate with God to be saved Robert? This really is not all that difficult for an open person to understand. It's as simple as ABC. Our 'saved' status was secured 2,000 years ago. There is nothing that you could do to add or subtract to it either by trying extra hard or even reaching out to take it. .... The same with the gift of eternal life. That has been secured for you. No matter how many good works you perform ... it will not change the gift. If you want to benefit from the gift ... you do have to reach out and take ahold of it and accept it. God has given men faculties and capabilities. God works and cooperates with the gifts He has imparted to man, and man, by being a partaker of the divine nature and doing the work of Christ, may be an overcomer and win eternal life. The Lord does not propose to do the work He has given man powers to do. Man's part must be done. He must be a laborer together with God, yoking up with Christ, learning his meekness, His lowliness.... The Redeemer must find a home in His building. God works and man works. There needs to be a continual taking in of the gifts of God, in order that there may be as free a giving out of these gifts... The law of the human and the divine actions makes the receiver a laborer together with God.... We are workers together with God. FW 26, 27, 47. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 aside from that notice the claim that we dwell in Him. now were all pretty smart enough to figure out that we really arent physically inside of Christ, so why would we think the HS or fallen angels are literally, physically, inside of us? Demons actually take physical and mental possession of some people. We do not know all the reasons for their taking over people's bodies, or dwelling inside them, but we know that they do. When people show by their choices that they reject God and accept the ways of Satan, he accepts it as the person's giving him permission to have his will with them and as proof that they belong to him. Many of these demon-possessed people tell pastors and other Christian workers that they need help because they feel that they have a demon inside them. This occurs far more often than some people might suppose. Some people who say this are mentally ill and may not be possessed at all, but there are others who are truly possessed. Most possessed people lead generally normal lives except for times when they may exhibit symptoms such as extreme anger, hatred, or other characteristics that show they are not in control of themselves. It's best to allow people to diagnose themselves. It can be counter-productive to try to convince someone who hasn't concluded this on their own. And people should not try to diagnose other people, despite what they consider obvious signs. The "signs" may be caused by chemical imbalances or other physical/emotional illnesses. If victims of demon-possession are sincere and want to be free, the Holy Spirit will lead them to Christians who can help. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=o4IjxRY...;q=&f=false Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: I reject your view that the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you Mark ... why are you still sinning? May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Rob, when believers have the Holy Spirit in their lives and they are walking in the Spirit, can they obey the commandments of God? Do you believe that there are Christians who keep God's commandments out of love for Christ and by His grace? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 I can tell you that Paul doesn't say such....He says that we continually fall short of God's agape love... Is all falling short of God's glorious ideal "sin"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Steve Billiter Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 John, BTW, I posted my Sequeria experience that you asked for. It's a few pages back somewhere. God Bless! Steve Quote
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 We are not saved because of good works, but the Bible and Ellen White are clear that no one will be saved without good works out of a living faith in Christ. Right, but the works do not prove one's righteousness because "there is none righteous". Then why are they linked to salvation? Matthew 7:22, 23. Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him? [see also Luke 13:25-28.] Quote
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Rob, when believers have the Holy Spirit in their lives and they are walking in the Spirit, can are they obeying the commandments of God? I changed your question a bit....My answer is 1 John 1:8 and again Romans 3:23 Quote
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert I can tell you that Paul doesn't say such....He says that we continually fall short of God's agape love... Is all falling short of God's glorious ideal "sin"? All imperfection is sin...just like "sin dwelling in me" is called sin. And Paul doesn't say we fall short of God's "glorious ideal"....He states that we fall short of His goodness - His agape love. Quote
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 John, BTW, I posted my Sequeria experience that you asked for. It's a few pages back somewhere. God Bless! Steve I love Jack Sequeira....He is a man of God...and used of God in a mighty way! Rob Quote
Steve Billiter Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) aside from that notice the claim that we dwell in Him. now were all pretty smart enough to figure out that we really arent physically inside of Christ, so why would we think the HS or fallen angels are literally, physically, inside of us? Demons actually take physical and mental possession of some people. We do not know all the reasons for their taking over people's bodies, or dwelling inside them, but we know that they do. When people show by their choices that they reject God and accept the ways of Satan, he accepts it as the person's giving him permission to have his will with them and as proof that they belong to him. Many of these demon-possessed people tell pastors and other Christian workers that they need help because they feel that they have a demon inside them. This occurs far more often than some people might suppose. Some people who say this are mentally ill and may not be possessed at all, but there are others who are truly possessed. Most possessed people lead generally normal lives except for times when they may exhibit symptoms such as extreme anger, hatred, or other characteristics that show they are not in control of themselves. It's best to allow people to diagnose themselves. It can be counter-productive to try to convince someone who hasn't concluded this on their own. And people should not try to diagnose other people, despite what they consider obvious signs. The "signs" may be caused by chemical imbalances or other physical/emotional illnesses. If victims of demon-possession are sincere and want to be free, the Holy Spirit will lead them to Christians who can help. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=o4IjxRY...;q=&f=false How do we know that all mental illness is not caused by demons? We know for a fact that Satan can put disease on people and take it away, why cannot he cause a chemical imbalance as well? If Satan cased boils on Job, what would a doctor see? Boils. What does a doctor see in those who are Bi-Polar? A chemical imbalance. There are different levels of possession. Mat 17:21 But this kind goes not out but by prayer and fasting. Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 Steve B wrote: Quote: What does a doctor see in those who are Bi-Polar? A chemical imbalance. There are different levels of possession. Mat 17:21 But this kind goes not out but by prayer and fasting. You think a person with bipolar disorder gets better by prayer and fasting?? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Steve B wrote: Quote: What does a doctor see in those who are Bi-Polar? A chemical imbalance. There are different levels of possession. Mat 17:21 But this kind goes not out but by prayer and fasting. You think a person with bipolar disorder gets better by prayer and fasting?? What are we going to hear next ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 May I say that you and I do not know what Mark is doing or whether he is sinning. Sure we do....The Bible is clear....See Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8 Romans 3: 23-- "All sinned [aorist] and are [present tense] falling short of the glory of God." Notice that this says that all people have sinned, and that people are continuing to fall short of God's glory. This verse doesn't make it possible for you to say that all people are sinning at any particular time. People are not sinning simply by virtue of the fact that they are alive. That would make a mockery of Romans 6: 18 which says that people who used to be slaves of sin have been set free from sin and have now become slaves of righteousness. Romans 8: 4 says that because of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. How could this be if all humans can't help but be continually sinning? Falling short of God's glory is distinguished from sinning. Sinning is the violation of God's law, or lawlessness. And falling short of God's glory is something people do even when they obey God. Even the angels-- who do not sin-- are falling short of God's glory. The only one who did not fail to meet all of God's expectations was Jesus Christ. Do you believe that the apostle Paul was sinning every moment while writing the NT under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Can people sin knowingly at the same moment that they are practicing righteousness and living to God's glory? I don't see how and I don't believe the Bible teaches this. 1 John 1: 8-- "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Again, this is not a verse that can be rightly used to support the idea that all people are continually sinning. Notice it says we shouldn't ever say that we HAVE NO sin. It doesn't say we're deceiving ourselves if we say we're not committing sin. What's the difference? Compare it with verse 10-- "If we say we HAVE NOT SINNED, we make Him a liar..." Verse 8 refers to a continual condition of fallenness and of being in need of God's grace because at any time we may sin. (Compare 1 John 2: 1-- "IF anyone sins...") Verse 10, on the other hand, refers to the fact that we have all committed sin, or violated God's law at one or another in our lives, qualifying us for the penalty of eternal death. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Steve Billiter Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Can God heal all diseases or not? Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 Can God heal all diseases or not? Can He? Yes. Does He? No. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.