I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Paul stated that he died "daily".

Now Christians interpret this to mean a "death" of the old man that happens every day.

...It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

i know the picture i get when reading this statement, but you may mean something different..

are you saying you no longer sin, ever?

If I am abiding in Christ, and He in me, then I will not sin.

But if I step out of that, if I am tempted out of the promises of God, I will sin.

I still have sin "working in my members", but as long as I rest in the promises of God, the sin does not have "control" of me.

Grace does...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man [our life from Adam] is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [KJV]

Apparently King James had grammar problems....

Here's what every other version says:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him" [NIV]

"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him]" [ASV]

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him" [NAS]

"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him" [NKJV]

"We know that our old self was crucified with him" [NRS]

"We know that our old self was crucified with him" [RSV]

"This we know--that our old self was nailed to the cross with Him" [WNT]

The thing is we died in Christ 2000 years ago. "Our old life WAS crucified with Him...", not "is" crucified....Paul is pointing to the cross where our corporate humanity died "in Christ".....That's why Paul says, "when One died, ALL died"! Hence he could say to the Roman believers, "You died (past tense) to the law in the body of Christ." (Rom 7:4)....It's all in the past tense....

Quote:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. again subjective tense

Here's a better translation:

"In the same way, count [consider, reckon] yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus"

Now Paul is talking about Christian living. He is saying, just like your humanity indwelt with sin literally died 2000 years ago "in Christ" (that which saves) have the same attitude so that God can crucify the desires of your nature in the here and now....In other words the aim is to let your experience reflect the truth as it is "in Christ"....

We are actually very close here Robert.

It is the part "after" we are in Christ, that I think you have drifted on, you seem to have failed to enter into the "reckoning" of Rom 6:11.

When we are "In Christ", we will be overcomers of sin, because Jesus is "actively an presently" keeping the law in us.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Oh,I love this! Thanks, Twilight!

Light dawning?

Wonderful, praise God.

What is it that you love about this Sylvia?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man [our life from Adam] is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [KJV]

Apparently King James had grammar problems....

Here's what every other version says:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him" [NIV]

"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him]" [ASV]

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him" [NAS]

Yes, this is one verse, or rather one verb, that the KJV's translators got wrong. The verb, "was crucified," is aorist indicative and refers to an event that occurred at a point in the past.

The question is, does the past refer to the death of Christ 2000 years ago or to the time when the believer accepted Christ's sacrifice? It seems obvious that the KJV translators saw that it was aorist but translated it as something which took place during the life of the believer. Col. 2: 12, 20; 3: 1, 3; Eph. 2: 13 all seem to point to our old self being crucified as the time when believers accept Christ by faith as their Savior and Lord. See also Gal. 3: 1.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Apparently King James had grammar problems....

Here's what every other version says:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him" [NIV]

"knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him]" [ASV]

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him" [NAS]

Yes, this is one verse, or rather one verb, that the KJV's translators got wrong. The verb, "was crucified," is aorist indicative and refers to an event that occurred at a point in the past.

The question is, does the past refer to the death of Christ 2000 years ago or to the time when the believer accepted Christ's sacrifice? It seems obvious that the KJV translators saw that it was aorist but translated it as something which took place during the life of the believer. Col. 2: 12, 20; 3: 1, 3; Eph. 2: 13 all seem to point to our old self being crucified as the time when believers accept Christ by faith as their Savior and Lord. See also Gal. 3: 1.

Thank you for clarifying that John317.

Further:

The bible teaches that corporately, we were crucified in Christ 2000 years ago.

But our acceptance of that is in the present.

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

The acceptance takes place when the believer believes.

The "action" happened when Jesus was crucified.

We are "believing" what has already happened.

Sometimes we mistake the "believing" with the "happening".

Mark :-)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, this is one verse, or rather one verb, that the KJV's translators got wrong. The verb, "was crucified," is aorist indicative and refers to an event that occurred at a point in the past.

The question is, does the past refer to the death of Christ 2000 years ago or to the time when the believer accepted Christ's sacrifice? It seems obvious that the KJV translators saw that it was aorist but translated it as something which took place during the life of the believer. Col. 2: 12, 20; 3: 1, 3; Eph. 2: 13 all seem to point to our old self being crucified as the time when believers accept Christ by faith as their Savior and Lord. See also Gal. 3: 1.

Thank you for clarifying that John317.

Further:

The bible teaches that corporately, we were crucified in Christ 2000 years ago.

But our acceptance of that is in the present.

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

The acceptance takes place when the believer believes.

The "action" happened when Jesus was crucified.

We are "believing" what has already happened.

Sometimes we mistake the "believing" with the "happening".

Mark :-)

I think this is something very important to keep in mind, because there is an aspect of the atonement that occurred 2000 years ago, but there is also a very important aspect of the atonement that is going on today in heaven and in the life of believers. I see both aspects as necessary. If all we have is a death on a cross 2000 years ago, then all we have is the first-apartment, and that will never finish the work of God. We need the work of Christ in the second-apartment, the Most Holy Place. It's a work of judgment, of preparing the world and the church for Christ's second coming.

[Robert]

The question is, does the past refer to the death of Christ 2000 years ago or to the time when the believer accepted Christ's sacrifice?

Christ does not die again and again every time someone believes (see Hebrews chapter 9)....

Hebrews 10:10 by that will [by Christ's doing & dying], we have been [past tense] made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[Robert]

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

Bingo! You are now in full agreement with Jack Sequeira on this issue.

Your humanity (and we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam multiplied through procreation) died in the body of Christ some 2000 years ago. In that corporate life Christ, thought "the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death."

So "in Christ" we have a humanity that is already free from indwelling sin and has died the 2nd death. We are complete in Him.

[Robert]

If all we have is a death on a cross 2000 years ago, then all we have is the first-apartment, and that will never finish the work of God.

Oh, back to your buildings....Look Christ is the reality of all those symbols. In Him you are complete now and in the judgment. And, BTW, I don't care for how you made our death in Christ trivial. What happened "in Christ" 2000 years ago is the bases of our salvation. It is what saves us ultimately because while God does work in the believer that doesn't add to what Christ did 2000 years ago. To deny this it to teach the same gospel the Judaizers were teaching many years ago (and even now).

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Thank you for clarifying that John317.

Further:

The bible teaches that corporately, we were crucified in Christ 2000 years ago.

But our acceptance of that is in the present.

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

The acceptance takes place when the believer believes.

The "action" happened when Jesus was crucified.

We are "believing" what has already happened.

Sometimes we mistake the "believing" with the "happening".

Mark :-)[/quote']

I think this is something very important to keep in mind, because there is an aspect of the atonement that occurred 2000 years ago, but there is also a very important aspect of the atonement that is going on today in heaven and in the life of believers. I see both aspects as necessary. If all we have is a death on a cross 2000 years ago, then all we have is the first-apartment, and that will never finish the work of God. We need the work of Christ in the second-apartment, the Most Holy Place. It's a work of judgment, of preparing the world and the church for Christ's second coming.

You make a good point, so I will adjust my post:

--------------------

Further:

The bible teaches that corporately, we were crucified in Christ 2000 years ago.

But our acceptance of that is in the present.

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

The acceptance takes place when the believer believes.

The "action" happened when Jesus was crucified.

We are "believing" what has already happened.

Sometimes we mistake the "believing" with the "happening".

But then we have the constant ministry and growth of the very thing we have received, in real time, in the present.

As Jesus gives it to us.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So we accept in the present, what has already happened in the past.

Bingo! You are now in full agreement with Jack Sequeira on this issue.

Your humanity (and we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam multiplied through procreation) died in the body of Christ some 2000 years ago. In that corporate life Christ, thought "the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death."

So "in Christ" we have a humanity that is already free from indwelling sin and has died the 2nd death. We are complete in Him.

But where I now differf from your view Robert (as I understand), is that there is a continuance of the work, that is carried on "in me".

This is manifested in obedience, given and supplied by the Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Bingo! You are now in full agreement with Jack Sequeira on this issue.

Your humanity (and we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam multiplied through procreation) died in the body of Christ some 2000 years ago. In that corporate life Christ, thought "the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death."

So "in Christ" we have a humanity that is already free from indwelling sin and has died the 2nd death. We are complete in Him.

[/quote']

But where I now differ from your view Robert (as I understand), is that there is a continuance of the work, that is carried on "in me".

This is what the Judaizers taught....You can find this in Gal chapter 3:

1 You foolish [ignorant] Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? [see human nature thinks it can add to what was received, through the spirit] 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? [Christians were suffering for accepting Christ] 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith will live." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." ["obey & live"] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[Robert]

Read the following...maybe it will help"

Although sanctification is certainly good news, we must never equate it with the gospel. Sanctification is the fruit of the gospel. Failure to distinguish justification from sanctification has produced the spiritual insecurity common among so many Adventists. We need to keep in mind that the believer’s justification is based on a finished work, the gospel, but sanctification, as a subjective experience, is an ongoing process that will continue as long as life will last. Through the gospel, the believer stands perfect in Christ; this is the basis of his or her assurance. Good works — sanctification — are not the basis of assurance, but they prove that the believer’s faith is genuine and not a sham (see James 2:14-26). A genuine justification by faith must express itself in behavior. Therefore, it will always produce good works (see Matthew 13:23) even though these works may not be apparent to the believer himself (see Matthew 25:37-39). [Jack Sequeira]

[Woody]

Read the following...maybe it will help"

Although sanctification is certainly good news, we must never equate it with the gospel. Sanctification is the fruit of the gospel. Failure to distinguish justification from sanctification has produced the spiritual insecurity common among so many Adventists. We need to keep in mind that the believer’s justification is based on a finished work, the gospel, but sanctification, as a subjective experience, is an ongoing process that will continue as long as life will last. Through the gospel, the believer stands perfect in Christ; this is the basis of his or her assurance. Good works — sanctification — are not the basis of assurance, but they prove that the believer’s faith is genuine and not a sham (see James 2:14-26). A genuine justification by faith must express itself in behavior. Therefore, it will always produce good works (see Matthew 13:23) even though these works may not be apparent to the believer himself (see Matthew 25:37-39). [Jack Sequeira]

Excellent Rob. Thank you for posting this.

[pnattmbtc]

I think the emphasis should be on God's character. That is, we need not fear, because we trust in God, based on His character. It's not having the right theory of "in Christ" that gives one personal assurance, but knowing God, and His character, which gives one peace. Having said this, having wrong theories regarding justification by faith, or "in Christ," can certainly be detrimental, because it can lead us to have wrong ideas regarding God's character.

[Robert]

I think the emphasis should be on God's character. That is, we need not fear, because we trust in God, based on His character.

Absolutely....First I learned the gospel...and in it I saw the love of Christ....He loved His enemies more than Himself....He was willing to say goodbye to life, not for just 3 days, but for eternity. That's agape....

If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[teresaq]

When we are "In Christ", we will be overcomers of sin, because Jesus is "actively an presently" keeping the law in us.

do you see Jesus literally in us?

[teresaq]

Paul said we are to "consider ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God" in Romans 6:11.

I cor 15:31, does not mention any spiritual application, but rather a suffering of the "flesh".

Whereas Rom 6:11 is specifically spiritual in application.

So that takes precedence over the Corinthians quote, as that is the clear text.

interesting reasoning.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This is what the Judaizers taught....You can find this in Gal chapter 3:

1 You foolish [ignorant] Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? [see human nature thinks it can add to what was received, through the spirit] 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? [Christians were suffering for accepting Christ] 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith will live." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." ["obey & live"] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Then you are calling the Holy Spirit a Judaizer, as He is working in me.

I do not think you understand the difference between someone working out the law by themselves, with someone having that worked in them by the Holy Spirit.

Sadly, you think these are the same thing.

Hence the one armed Gospel you preach.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When we are "In Christ", we will be overcomers of sin, because Jesus is "actively an presently" keeping the law in us.

do you see Jesus literally in us?

I know this wasn't directed at me....

Apparently Mark sees the HS as a dominate force that just takes over the will and infuses you with righteousness. Well, it doesn't work that way....First of all the HS will never work in you if you are depending on that work to save you. Why? It denies that "in Christ" you already have salvation full and complete and He will not go contrary to this truth.

Now, if you are resting in Christ for your salvation and have the assurance of salvation, then Christ will work in you so that you can now experience all that is already true in Himself. This is genuine fruit....The problem is our surrender....Hence the HS won't automatically take over....He takes us where we are at....He goes over the same besetting sins again and again until we mature....Then he opens our eyes to other sins....Not for salvation, but so as to experience growth in Christ. It's the icing on the cake...the cake being salvation full and complete....

[Robert]

Then you are calling the Holy Spirit a Judaizer, as He is working in me.

The Holy Spirit will not work in anyone, as it pertains to genuine fruits, if that person goes against the gospel (i.e., in Him we are complete).

I am saying that the Judaizers taught you must do something to help Christ save you....You must do this that and the other....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Sylvia49

Oh,I love this! Thanks, Twilight!

Light dawning?

Wonderful, praise God.

What is it that you love about this Sylvia?

wish i could jump on the bandwagon, but to me your posts come across as mystical and pantheistic.

like the commercial says, "wheres the meat". old commercial, maybe its before your time. :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then you are calling the Holy Spirit a Judaizer, as He is working in me.

The Holy Spirit will not work in anyone, as it pertains to genuine fruits, if that person goes against the gospel (i.e., in Him we are complete).

I am saying that the Judaizers taught you must do something to help Christ save you....You must do this that and the other....

i wouldnt limit it to the jews. it is the basis of all false religions, as well as ones own.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Holy Spirit will not work in anyone, as it pertains to genuine fruits, if that person goes against the gospel (i.e., in Him we are complete).

I am saying that the Judaizers taught you must do something to help Christ save you....You must do this that and the other.... [/quote']i wouldnt limit it to the jews. it is the basis of all false religions, as well as ones own.

I use that word loosely....A Judaizer was a Christian convert who maintained that while our past sins were forgiven, we had to do something in addition to Christ's work to be ultimately be saved. Circumcision was only one requirement. See Acts chapter 15....

A modern day Judaizer is really a Gentile Christian (this is my take) that teaches practically the same thing.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When we are "In Christ", we will be overcomers of sin, because Jesus is "actively an presently" keeping the law in us.

do you see Jesus literally in us?

Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, yes...